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General Discussion » Re: forrest addy »

Edited #1

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/rip-forrest-addy.433947/

https://www.woodcentral.com/-/?s=forrest+addy
https://www.woodcentral.com/?p=Archive&tag=forrest+addy#results
https://www.woodcentral.com/forkbb/search/simple/forrest+addy

Added later 03 min 38 s:

Dale Stansbery wrote:

Sorry to hear that. He always added greatly to the discussions here. Who remembers the "Addy Protocol"?

https://www.woodcentral.com/forkbb/topic/4079007/Addy%20Protocol%3F
https://www.woodcentral.com/articles/wirecolor.php

Toolmaking & Jigs » Best saw blade »

Edited #3

Years ago, Forrest Addy (author of the Tales from Grandpa Augustus series and author of the Addy Protocol) posted about cheap vs. expensive saw blades. Do you agree with him that most times it is more a function of the initial sharpening by the manufacturer than a matter of blade quality, and that the carbide used is largely the same with none justifying 10X the cost?

Turning » Re: Addy Protocol? »

#5

My small part

Rod Peterson -- Ormond Beach

>While the Addy Protocol is definitely named for Forrest, and it was definitely based on his assertion once (probably more) back in the Badger Pond days that people giving advice ought to provide an idea of what their qualifications are to so dispense, I am proud of the fact that it was I who actually coined the phrase Addy Protocol. I always bold it when I use it, as seen here. I don't have very many creative eruptions, so I'm particularly proud that people have taken to its use and even that it is recognizable enough to raise the question.

Rod

Turning » Re: 1725 RPM vs 3450 RPM grinders »

#7

Re: 1725 RPM vs 3450 RPM grinders

Ace Foster in Ben Lomond 95005

>Many of us, including yr. obdt. svt., have had an easier time avoiding burning our tools while sharpening after switching to the slow speed grinder. Forrest Addy, whose opinions on things mechanical are usually well informed, says it's not the speed that matters. You might be able to find his post in the archives; it was some months ago, I think. If I remember correctly, he said it's the stone that matters. The gray ones are harder and less friable and therefore more prone to burning, while the white pink and blue compositions we're seeing more of these days are less apt to burn.

Hope I haven't misquoted him.

Ace

Turning » Re: Soldering Question?? »

#8

Re: Soldering Question?? *LINK*

Bill Turpin in WNC mountains

>Jennifier:

Most of your answers are contained in this WC article that Forrest Addy and I wrote some time back. Silver solder flux is primarily meant to remove oxides from copper or silver. It will not remove the dark grey oxide from OVERHEATED steel. This must be removed by sanding or filing. Let the heat of the tool flow into the solder to melt it. Do not allow direct flame impingement on the solder. Easy flow solder melts 100� (at 1450�) below hard solder, which further prevents changing the temper of HSS. When the flux melts it becomes chemically active. It is active in the same temperature range of the solder melt. The flux will indicate when to touch the solder to the steel. Do not overheat the steel. Put the cleaned, fluxed solder in the general area (an inch or so away) of the joint but do not hit it directly. This will preheat the solder for faster melt but not melt it before the steel is ready. You can e-mail me direct if you want.

Bill Turpin in WNC mountains


WC soldering article

Hand Tools » Re: Help me find... »

#9

Re: Help me find...

TomD

Thanks David. I wanted to check out one of the machines they used in the series.

As far as other videos go, there is a great sellection under Forrest Addy, or at least he has them up there. I often have trouble finding channels on Youtube if they have some weird name, sometimes even with the person or business name.

Hand Tools » Re: About Harrelson Stanley? »

#10

Fairly well-known in these parts

David Barnett

"...the manufacturer claims it's flat at .001 (mm/ meter). Given what I've been reading here, that seems hard to believe."

I'd suggest Toolroom Grade B to be sufficiently flat for woodworking tool related tasks.

SIZE____OVERALL ACCURACY (in.)

09" x 12" 0.0002

12" x 18" 0.0002

18" x 24" 0.0003

24" x 36" 0.0004

36" x 48" 0.0008

Forrest Addy, well-respected on woodworking and machinist forums alike, listed the flatness tolerance for the different grades of surface plates as follows:

• Laboratory Grade AA: (40 + diagonal [in inches] of surface plate squared / 25) x 0.000001 inches.

• Inspection Grade A: Laboratory Grade AA x 2

• Inspection Grade B: Laboratory Grade AA x 4

I'll leave it to you to convert to metric.

Harrelson Stanley is thoroughly knowledgeable and reliable. As for using diamond directly on a granite surface plate, you would quickly and unnecessarily ruin it. The idea behind lapping is to embed the abrasive particles into a surface softer than that which you wish to flatten/sharpen, in this case, tool steel. Glass is cheap, and while not ideal, is fine for your purpose at your level of experience. So my advice is to take Harrelson's advice. If you have no other reason to own and use a surface plate, return it.

Hand Tools » Re: floating a file? »

#11

Re: Simple all-purpose tool

TomD

Or alternatively form the end square with a small bevel on the down side. This gives a little more control in some cases. That is what I meant by like an engraver (google it). You can also sharpen it essentially like a domed scraper with curve to the end this will cut in deeper.

Hard to find the right thread for scrapers since there are so many types. Forrest Addy is a good source of info.

Or this kind of thing:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/home-built-scrapers-77579/

All that said, I think for wood planes a float is better, but as mentioned one is just removing wood there are always many other ways.

Hand Tools » So you've got a slab or iron. Now what? *LINK* »

#12

So you've got a slab or iron. Now what? *LINK*

David Barnett

How do know it's flat and how do you flatten it if it isn't?

You could take it to a machine shop, or...

[Lots of people here already know this stuff (and more about it than I do), but it might be of interest to those who don't. Anyway, someone asked me in private email and I thought I should share it here, as well.]

All this talk the last couple of weeks about iron and laps and a couple off-line questions got me rereading some stuff I hadn't looked at in years. For anyone who finds some iron and wants it flat, and wants to make it flat, and even wants to make other things flat and maybe even wants to make some excellent straight edges and so on, here are a few references. For me, these are great reads after a few cups of midnight coffee. I'll sleep when I'm dead.

Firstly, it's short but it's sweet; Jos. Whitworth's 1840 paper on making things flat.

http://tinyurl.com/WhitworthPlates

First 21 pages covers it, by the father of modern scraping. The Whitworth surface plates still elicit reverence.

From Houghton Mifflin Guide to Science & Technology: Machine Tools

"Maudslay turned out in his shop not only the best lathes of the time, but also the best machine tool manufacturers. Almost all the machine builders of the Industrial Revolution in Britain can trace their heritage directly or indirectly to Maudslay's shop."

And Maudslay begat Whitworth.

The really amazing thing is that the first great surface plates, the ones that arguably bootstrapped the British Industrial Revolution into precision machining and eventually our high-tech era, realized a far greater accuracy than previously achieved, flat to millionths of an inch, and all without a reference surface. How?

Why through a process known as the automatic generation of gages, which involves abrading and scraping three matching workpieces together systematically to cancel aberrations until the workpieces arrive at their limits of accuracy (or an acceptable degree of accuracy). And for some poor souls, like myself, it's even relaxing and fun.

Even if you don't go this route and have just one piece of iron to flatten, you'll get plenty of enjoyment out of scraping your lap. And it's so pretty! Which brings us to "Machine Tool Reconditioning and Applications of Hand Scraping", by Edward F. Connelly. This runs near a hundred dollars in reprint, but you can borrow it on interlibrary loan if you're really interested. It's pretty far from woodworking, obviously, but it's worth a look if you have precision metalworking inclinations -- 533 pages of entirely readable, illustrated information.

Chapter 5: The Hand Scraper, the flat scraper, the hook scraper (Forrest Addy demonstrates hook scraping in a YouTube video, btw), sharpening, honing (more than one way), polishing, radiusing, gets you to Chapter 6: Manipulating the Scraper Tool, The Arm Power Stroke vs. The Body Power Stroke, Length of Stroke, Direction of Stroke, Varying the Direction of the Scraping Stroke, Depth of Stroke, Nearing an Edge, Off-hand Scraping, and so on.

I don't know about you, but this stuff just makes me want to flatten and frost a #4, scrape a lap and sharpen woodworking tools. But maybe that's just me. And lots of caffeine.

Okay. Maybe you just want to know enough about scraping for one simple lap and a plane sole or two and don't want to fork over double digit dollars. Fine. There's always Lindsay's "Learning the Lost Art of Hand Scraping" reprint. For $4.95 this little 48-page gem is packed with all you'll need to appreciate and undertake this satisfying mechanical art. Lindsay has at least one other reprint on scraping, so visit their site http://www.lindsaybks.com/, but definitely get their free catalog as it has more than what's online. Build a still, do your own embalming, more.

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks9/hscrape/index.html

And finally, if none of the above gets your juices flowing, take a look at these:

http://tinyurl.com/ImantsGorbants

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQEUScJvRNU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpbVLNqC5fw

Coarse lapping isn't difficult at all and completely adequate for plane soles and homemade lapping plates for diamond paste, but you'll have even more fun if you learn to frost and flake, too. Of course, you could take it to a machine shop -- it's anything but woodworking. Makes sense. Not for me, though.

Easy, fast, cheap -- in any order. Seems to have become my mantra.


Lindsay catalog request

Hand Tools » Re: Spiers gloat *LINK* »

#13

Re: Spiers gloat

woodburnbob

>Thanks for the questions Wiley. I know you know the answers and that the questions are meant to possibly benefit those new to this disease who may be thinking of perhaps getting their first old-time infill smoother.

"...do you ordinarily just sharpen them up and use them, or do you detail the blade, chipbreaker, sole, etc?"

The first thing I'll do will be to just set the blade, which looks to have been recently sharpened, and then plane away for awhile on a piece of mahogany or cherry. Nothing taxing. It's interesting to me that unless something is terribly wrong, it takes 10 or 20 strokes for the plane to wake up and wiggle it's things into place. If it's then not up to standards, I'll go through the R.J. Whelan steps to tuning a plane, modified for an infill smoother.

I don't spend the time I used to in trying to perfect every little thing according to my various theories of the moment and various laws of passed down wisdom from books and such. I leave the sole alone unless it's concave at the mouth (I could get very long-winded about this but it's all been said before...I'm a Forrest Addy-ite on this topic).

If it still doesn't work as sweetly as it looks, then it's time to dig in, figure out why and re-fit something. For example, often it's that the lever cap is coming down only on one side of the blade assembly, of the bed near the mouth is functioning like a convex fulcrum, or something structural like that. We think of these planes as rigid and rectangular in cross section. But some aren't -- presumably from falls, abuse or expansion/contraction/twisting of the wood infill. Each plane is pretty unique if you get intimate with it.

"I'm curious whether there are noticeable differences between Norris and Spiers planes from the same time periods. Do you prefer Spiers in general, or did this particular one speak to you?"

I have a few early Norris infills, quite a few Spiers, some very nice Mathiesons, and several Prestons. Except for the various distinguishing marks like makers' marks, the profile on the lever screw head, and so forth, they are basically the same. This is no great surprise since I read that in the day there was a lot of trading, selling and interchanging of some components among these and other makers, as well as components for "craftsman" made copies. Maybe a bit like the 'made in various places in China but assembled in the USA" of today.

The early Norris's command a higher price,which is entirely fashion and cache in my opinion (late-model Norris's are a different species). Next, in price, comes Mathieson. Then, the relatively ubiquitous Spiers, which are perhaps underpriced simply because they've been used more and often show it, and they are available in greater numbers. The sleepers are the Preston infill smoothers, which look just like the rest, but feel different, better, in the tote. Looking at prices of the past 5 years or so, I conclude I'm not the only one to think this. I've gotten bargain Norris's, Mathieson's and Spiers' by being alert and patient. But I've had to pay quite well for the few Prestons. It's subtle and individual. You'd have to have a bunch of them to grab and hold in your hand, or use a little, but it's likely you'd find they all "feel" different and one would be your favorite. It might be a virgin early Norris or it might be a slutty Spiers -- which is kind of the fun of it. But it's not all that much better really than a $9.99 Ebay Bailey if you can tune and sharpen. There's an extraordinary amount of hype, status and elitism in hand tool talk I think. But, much cheaper than defining oneself with automobiles say. Looking back, I'd say my infill sickness was mostly about private yearning and capture far more than necessity...of course, like any addiction.

I don't own and have never tried any of the high class infills of modern master craftsmen such as Sauer & Steiner or Holtey, so my perspective is limited & parochial.

Anyway, he's the point I wanted to illustrate about one kind of problem. This is a British craftsman-made cast iron infill panel plane seemingly only needing cosmetic bun work. But with a blade in it, the plane is a disaster. Look down the throat in the second picture and you see why. It's on my to-do shelf.



Photobucket



Photobucket




Hand Tools » Re: Handplane sole flatness »

#14

Re: Handplane sole flatness

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Whoa Stuart...this is a question that has many answers. Some people think that the only good plane is perfectly flat. The other camp will try out a plane to see if it works before they spend any time flattening the sole. I would check any planes you have by using a straight edge before I devoted any effort to a badly out of true plane.

If you decide to true a plane the methods can include loose abrasive on plate glass, abrasive paper or sanding belt on plate glass or an other true surface. Like a surface plate for instance. They can be scraped to true, or even machined to specs. A very controversial thread begun by Forrest Addy even advocated a convex plane sole.

Different strokes for different folks. Other Islanders will probably chime in with some thoughts and if you do a search in the archives you will have hours of reading ahead.JR

Hand Tools » Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment »

#15

Re: Measurements (apex)

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>I suspect the locationof the hump would be highly dependent on the length of the plane in relation to the length of the board, and also to the blade exposure. I wonder if you used a Veritas plane, with a longer nose, in relation to heel, if the bump would move back?

I am amazed at how much our understanding has progressed since Forrest Addy posted his thoughts here over three and a half years ago. (Reference Bob's post on Cosmic Truth, above, if anyone missed it.) Like Bob, I wasn't convinced at the time, either, but I continued to consider his arguments, and observed my own results, until I decided he was probably right, mostly.

In the meantime, I also learned how to put a spring joint in a pair of boards using a power jointer, but more important, I learned that a lot of skill, and trial and error, and checking your results and adjusting is required to get it right. You can't just give the outfeed table depth wheel a crank, throw the board on the jointer and push it through.

The amount of sole concavity behind the blade would seem to be very tightly coupled to the blade exposure. This seems to be a good argument for multiple jointers in our arsenals, and for planes with precise depth adjusters with miniscule backlash. However, precision machinery cannot control the amount of downward pressure you put on the plane, the flexibility of the sole, and where in the stroke you shift your weight from the knob to the tote. On very long boards, where you need to take a step or two or three in mid-stroke, relying on shifting your weight between tote and knob is a lot less consistent method than relying on the stiffness of the board, the stiffness of the bench, and the stiffness of the plane, or better yet, on your eyes and ears and finger tips. Listening to the plane as it cuts, watching the shaving as it comes off the blade, and laying the boards together on top of the bench every so often to look at the joint you are making is the way to "get to Carnagie Hall."

Hand Tools » Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment »

#17

flat soles and cosmic truth

woodburnbob


>David, a bold assertion. But I think you are more right than wrong.

"I still cannot work out the physics of this unfortunate fact, but suspect that the geometry of a plane sole is not correct for producing straight edges or surfaces. Any ideas please?"

My thought is that the depth of cut has to be deepest at the beginning board edge and the ending board edge...given a perfectly flat sole and a cutting edge below the plane of the sole. At the beginning board edge there's no depth stop contributed by the sole behind the blade. At the ending board end there's no depth stop contributed by the sole ahead of the plane. The iterated effect of tiny but fixed variability results in a pattern...in this case a line that should be straight that paradoxically becomes increasingly curved...a sort of fractal, if you've dabbled in chaos theory.

Anyway, David, I remember reading the following Forrest Addy post a few years ago and thinking it was BS at the time. But it stuck in my mind. I now think it's not BS.

Addy Addy's assertions on WC in 2003

I was thinking again about it this summer when the topic of smoothers came up on WC. I decided to break with habit (hypnotic pursuit of flatness) and re-tuned a few old smoothers and block planes "out of flat"...that is, a flat toe but spoon shaped heel per Mr. Addy. I was alternating between using spotting/metal scraper and handfiles. I was pretty surprised how much better the planes worked even if I let the toe acquire some longitudinal radius. I've taken this up to #5s and still not noticed I'm creating any problem. Granted, this may not be a good idea with jointers.

Besides Bailey-oids and Bedrocks, I've bought quite a few "project" infills and rehabed them over the years. I noticed early on that the soles were consistently slightly convex. I thought it was wear or abrasive "sole flattening" by previous owners...degradations from the original perfect flatness. These were some of the victims I spotted and scraped "flat" over long hours in the basement. I now wonder if I hadn't been a complete moron.

The whole thing makes me smile. Over the years here, and on BP, one of the more hotly debated recurring issues has centered on whether a flat sole is all that important. As best I can tell, both camps, those who argue yes and those who argue no, maintain full armies of combatants lying in slumber simply awaiting a new call to arms.

Did you hear something?

Hand Tools » Re: Handfile Treatise *LINK* »

#18

Re: Filing a Bedrock 605 *PICS*

paul womack


>Bob; you're probably "ok" for now, since your plane is (clearly!!) in the early stages of becoming flat.

But I think your blue is very thick, and is marking too large an area.

A little (at this stage) less blue will give a more informative marking.

As the plane becomes flatter, you'll want thinner and thinner blue on the plate.

Fortunately the act of "taking a print" removes some blue, so if you spread the blue around (to make it uniform) prior to each print the process is often self-controlling.

If you haven't already, I recommend reading Stephen Thomas and Forrest Addy's posts from Badger pond, held on my site

BugBear

Hand Tools » Re: Plane iron and chisel sharpening »

#19

This might interest you then, Bill *LINK*

woodburnbob


>All this talk of flattening hardened steel got me reading something again that still just amazes me. So, I've posed a somewhat analogous question to those who might have special historical knowledge about processes and tactics. I'm hoping Forrest Addy will respond with a detailed disgorgement and not dismiss the question.


Semi-relevant post to PracticalMachinist

Hand Tools » Re: Screwed up my MF #85 - Looking for suggestions »

#21

Re: Screwed up my MF #85 - Looking for suggestions

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>There are a couple ways to get it out, but what I would do is take it to a machinist. Those guys can do anything, at least mine can. Or find Forrest Addy's email address and send him a message. He's a machinist and can do anything.

Bruce

Hand Tools » Re: variable speed grinder via 3-phase converter »

#23

Funny you should ask:

Forrest Addy

>Funny you should ask: is this enough?

The ultimate and most expensive solution for the three phase power from single phase problem is easily the electronic phase converter. This clever gadget takes line power and from it creates the third leg through PWM technology. It�s timing and waveform are accurate and the full nameplate ratings of the motor can be realized. Thi is a fixed frequency device not intended to control motors by itself. It's designed to provide full and complete three phase power from a single phase elecctrical source. I understand complex CNC Machine tools may be connected to the electronic phase converter without regard to line legs and generated legs. Hook it up and start to work.

Finally we come to the �variable frequency drive� (VFD). There�s a lot to learn when it comes to making shrewd decisions regarding VFD�s Few home shop workers have experience with heavy duty industrial electronics. The key to learning new things is to connect the basic concepts to a vocabulary. It�s no different than learning tennis or machine work than when learning enough about electricity to make a decision about VFD's and whether they will help you with powering your three phase motor. Be patient. The learning doesn't happen overnight. The understanding will come if you apply yourself.

The speed of an induction motor is controlled by the frequency of the AC power feeding it. When plugged connected to AC power induction motors run only at their designed speed.

Variable frequency drives are a box of solid state electronics that converts 60 Hz AC to variable frequency three phase. This allows you to operate a three phase (and three phase only) induction motor at any RPM you set. The motor runs at full torque to 60 HZ and drops off in proportion above 60 Hz. They are very simple for ordinary home shop machnists to work with if you can follow instructions when setting them up.

The VFD goes between the power and the motor. On the box are some control push buttons including the "start" and "stop" button. There is also a means to increase and decrease the speed of the motor - usually a knob like the volume control of an old radio. The initial connection amounts to hooking up five wires and a ground. Inside the box are terminals for connecting it to a more convenient arrangement of external push-button controls (the original control buttons furnished with your machine if you like) but you can also run it from the push buttons on the box.

A manual should come with your VFD should you make the plunge. Do not buy any VFD that does not come with a manual. If you're electrically challenged you won't decipher the manual overnight. You'll have to study it, taking in bit at a time like you'd eat an elephant.

As for cost, $200 (used price for a pre-owned 2 HP single phase rated unit) doesn't seem expensive to me for such a talented box. It will power (separately by means of a receptacle on the VFD and a plug for each three phase motor) other three phase motors should you mount them on your drill press, lathe, mill, etc. That smooth, quiet, three phase power and variable speed adds a lot of functionality to a machine shop, and the gadget has built in economizer circuitry that will lower you power bill a tad.

Be sure to get all the manuals that go with them. There's up to a hundred settings (parameters) you set to customize it to suit your motor and application including maximum current, acceleration and a deceleration, stall prevention, and lots of other features. You can run a 1/4 HP motor from a 10 HP drive if you wish but that's stretching it.

There are many drive brands Yaskawa, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Baldor, GE, Teco to mention only a few. Don't rush off and buy one over the counter from a retail dealer. First determine your needs, then check around your local big city mechanical drives or electric motor suppliers. Ask for take-off or trade-ins. You may be able to get last year's drive for 1/2 price. Be sure to get a 230 Volt drive preferably one suited for single input although a 3 phase only drive will work on single phase if appropriately de-rated as mentioned earlier. If you screw up and get a 460 volt VFD there's no solution but a step up transformer.

Some drives will step up 115 volt to 230 volts internally up to 1 HP. This is a drive targeted at consumers with a bad home shop habit and no way to get 230 volts in their shops. They are pricier than 230 or 460 volt drives. If you�re looking at 115 Volt VFD�s and wondering how they will work on a 5 HP motor maybe it would be a good time to run in a 230 volt service to your shop.

Used later model VFD's from the internet auction sites may be quite acceptable. Beware of older technology units not because they function poorly but because they can be noisy and emit an aduible squeal that even I can hear. eBay usually has two pages of VFD's. Select "Business and Industry" as a category and key in "VFD", "inverter drive", or "AC drive" as search objects.

Here are a couple of on-line sources. Once you get comfortable with the concepts of VFD technology and feel like shopping, phone them and dicker. Check out http://www.dealerselectric.com/ . Go to "Browse our inventory" then click on "inverter drives." Another one is at http://vfds.com/vfdprice.htm#120 Volt Models. These people (and many others sell 120 volt input drives. They have a step-up circuit inside that lets them run 230 volt motors. These are more expensive. http://www.driveswarehouse.com

I have seven VFD's powering my machine tools from my 20HP metalworking hydraulic planer to my smallest drill press. I'll never go back to single phase power for major shop equipment.

The de-rating question of VFD's for the home shop user may require more than a simple 50% answer. It's a matter of how much: the math works out to a three phase rated VFD running on single phase adequately serves a motor up to 2/3 it's rated capacity. If the VFD is designed for single phase power then you can use it to full load capacity.

More advanced consideration for de-rating VFD�s include questions like. How much single phase 120 Hz ripple in the DC buss can the VFD can handle without the logic or the power section being adversely affected under full load at @ 60 Hz? How much extra current and filter capacity is there in the rectifier section?

As the motor speed for a full torque load is reduced, the demand from the DC buss decreases accordingly until about 41 Hz is reached. At that point full load motor current can be theoretically be drawn from the VFD's load terminals. The rectifier and DC buss still thinks it's working into a de-rated load because of the output transistor's PWM duty cycle at the lower voltage/Hz.

So it's full reted current to the load terminals up to about 41 Hz and a linear decrease thereafter to about 70 percent of full load current. This will limit the VFD's input diodes to no more then the three phase full loat current. As for ripple current that's a fuction of the installed filter capacity and has to be figured (or scoped) for your particular VFD.

A three phase rated VFD destined to feed a 1.15 service factor motor run to full name plate ratings from single phase power needs to be DOUBLE rated, that is a 5 HP motor requires a 10 nominal HP drive. The de-rating protects the input diodes which may be rated for three phase amps.

Most modern feature-rich drives allows the drive to be programmed at constant HP in this band of operation. There will be no harm to the motor or drive. The motor will merely act as if overloaded and slow down but at the current limit set when the drive was programmed.

Most of these concerns are moot because few - very few - people in home shops take full HP cuts for more than a minute or so.

There's never a simple answer to any question regarding AC.

By the way, connect nothing to the third line terminal of the VFD. No ground, not to the single phase line. Resist temptation and leave it unused and innocent ot wire. Someone mentioned connecting the neutral to something.

Connect the neutral to nothing but the return leg of any 115 circuits forming part of the electrical systen. Do NOT connect the branch circuit neutral to ground at any point in the electrical circuit except to the neutral/ground rail at the service entrance in compliance with local code and NEC. Connect the ground to the chassis of the VFD at the ground terminal provided.

Also be sure to continue the ground conductor through to the motor and other electrical loads following the VFD's installation book guidelines to avoid ground loops.

Concerning questions about running motors from VFD's at low RPMS

Often home shop machinists wish to take advantage of VFD technology for their single phase machine tools but a conversion from single phase to VFD control takes some thinking. For one thing a VFD will not run a single phase motor. Period. For another you cannot replace a step pulley or multi-speed geared spindle transmission and vary the spindle RPM�s with the VFD alone. Any attempt to do so results in frustration as the spindle speed is reduced at the VFD�s speed control knob. It�s a matter of mechanical advantage.

Some complain that �VFDs lose torque at low RPM�s.� That�s false. Torque is twisting effort. Power is a function of torque times RPM. An induction motor is a constant torque device. As you reduce the motor RPM with the VFD the motor's torque remains constant but the RPM's and consequently power drops proportionate to the VFD's setpoint frequency. A 1 HP motor designed to run at 60 Hz develops 1/2 HP at 30 Hz, 1/4 hp at 15 Hz, and so on. No motor torque is lost as the RPM's are reduced only the delivered power.

What is mistakenly called "torque loss" is actually loss of tangential force. When it's necessary to run larger cutters at lower RPM the torque requirement goes up. If you attempt to obtain lower RPM by dialing down the VFD bacause the moment at the cutting edges is larger you also reduce the available power at the cutter. If a full HP cut is desired the spindle speed has to be mechanically - not electronically - reduced to suit the cutter RPM.

For that reason you cannot dispense with a machine tool's multi-step mechanical reductions if you wish to take advantage of the motor's full HP. Use the VFD to fill in between the steps for max HP. For low power operations you can simply dial down the VFD if you wish to be lazy and avoid shifting belts or gears but only for lighter cuts in proportion to motor RPM.

Thrift store or garage sale? Don't buy it if pre-1995. Get a return agreement and have a local motor guy check it out. These drives are nearly bullet-proof but their NEMA 1 enclosures are built like a bird cage. If the internal electronics are permeated by conductive dust (like from an abrasive shop saw) the logic and switching circuits will suffer. Older VFD's are 6 step and squeal when they run and are bereft of important features. The newer PWM drives are quiet and more resistant to faults.

As for the economies of VFD Vs a phase converter, there are several. A spinning phase converter running idle draws idle current depending on about a dozen variables. Actual charges are strongly dependent on duty cycle and power factor. As long as the phase converter is running you pay for the KW/hrs the converter ticks up on the meter whether you are drawing power from it or not.

As for conversion efficiency, I'd guess that a machine tool drive motor run from a VFD consumes about 1/3 the power over a year that a comparable motor fed from an across the line starter.

All modern VFD�s have "economizer circuitry". If the motor is run at part load, the VFD drops the line voltage to some level where the motor runs at reduced voltage closer to full load amps and its greatest conversion efficiency. My lathe motor is 10 HP and is rated for 230 Volts 3 phase @ 34 Amps. When I'm coasting along taking a light cut, the motor draws about 23 Amps from the VFD at reduced voltage but the VFD draws only about 4 Amps from the line. No this is not smoke and mirrors but simply how real-world VFD's work with real world three phase motors.

Most industrial motors are over-rated in their application and therefore run inefficiently. About 1/4 of all electrical energy is consumed by motors 50 HP or less. We in the US wouldn�t have to build new power generating plants for years if every three phase motor was furnished with a VFD.

The subject of an older motor's behavior with VFD's includes many urban legend style stories based more on self-accreting hearsay than actual performance. Not to trivialize the point but motor heating and insulation failure are concerns frequently overstated by popular belief particularly on 230 Volt systems.

Every motor has a duty cycle rating which is the percentage of time it can be safely run to full ratings. Most induction motors have duty cycle ratings of 100% or more meaning there is no limitation to operation except ambient the air temperature can be no greater than the safe insulation class temperature rating minus the motor's rated temperature rise. Since motors have thermal mass it takes time for the motor's copper temperature to increase to dangerous levels even at overload current. Makes sense; otherwise a motor would burn out at start-up.

Most induction motors running power tools have a relatively low duty cycle, even during stock reduction roughing cuts. The time between cuts counts as idle time permitting the motor a breather when it can cool somewhat.

You can run only one motor at a time from a VFD and you really should run the motor from the control panel not switch the motor after the drive. You may desire to purchase one VFD and run several items of equipment from it by plugging them in separately as you need them. Just remember that you may wish to adjust parameters every time you change motor for the built-in motor protection features to work properly.

Inverter rated induction motors have extra insulation strength to resist transient over-voltages induced in the windings by the switching frequency. New motors have stator iron properties favoring high frequencies therefore high voltage transients and insulation breakdown can be more of a problem when run from VFD's. Older motors have older iron which incidentally better blots up high frequency switching transients so it causes less of a voltage spike problem than would seem. Thus older tech motors mitigate effects newer motors have to be designed for.

It's long been the rule that induction motor insulation (and any other electrical appliance or device for that matter) has to with stand double the connectable voltage plus 500 Volts. So long as the motor is dry, VFD switching transients will cause no trouble for the home shop machinist running hid equipment from 230 Volts..

Hand Tools » Re: variable speed grinder via 3-phase converter »

#24

Terminology. Variable Freguency Drive (VFD)

Forrest Addy

>We got a terminology problem here.

Bill that box is a Variable Freguency Drive (VFD.) It contains the latest technology that converts AD to DC then using PWM and a very smart microprocessor control turns the DC back into sinewave coded three phase AC.

A phase converter is a different animal which converts single phase into a lame kind of three phase good enough to run a three phase motor almost to specs. This is 100 year old technology regardless of the age of the components.

On the basis of a resounding success using VFD's to run my three phase shop equipment I made the mistake of studying up on the subject a few years ago. I heavily promoted VFD's as a superior solution to running three phase equipment from single phase power both from the electrical efficiency and the variable speed advantages.

If you tell people you're using a "phase converter" to get variable speed they're gonna start asking me why they can't do the same because Bill Tindall does it and it works for him. Make it easier on me. Call that box a "VFD," not a "phase converter."

Excellent application of new technology to old timey equipment by the way. I bet your grinder is controlable down to a gnat's whisker. If you want to see a VFD applied to a drill press look at my article in the Jan/Feb issue of "Home Shop Machinist" on the news stands early January.

Hand Tools » Follow up from Forrest »

#25

Follow up from Forrest

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>For those interested in the mess I've got myself into by being a ninny and buying a 3 phase motor for lathe vs. a single phase motor without realizing it there is more info on the subject on the Power tool side. On fridat, the 7th Forrest Addy replied to my post. didn't understand a word of it, but some of you might, and might find it to be useful info in the event that you are a closet case 3 phase motor buying ninny such as myself.

Coarse, I'm not a closet case am I, as I'm more than willing to jump and a down while flailing my arms about, shouting at the top of my lungs, "Look at the damn fool thing I've went and done this time"

Todd O.

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