floating a file?

Re: Not the Dai

david weaver

...but the coffin smoother.

I didn't have any real problems with the Dai, other than that I chose QS maple, which is more chippy than what I'm used to working. I am still using that dai, though, It's OK.

The bits I want to get right are both the functionality and the aesthetics of the coffin smoother, getting a visually tight fit everywhere, with good design and proportions and good crisp lines around all of the carved/chiseled bits.

I think I could probably make a great performing plane in a maximum of two tries. The aesthetics put the brakes on the process on the first two (plus I was wanting to get a shot at layout and removal of the waste in the mortise with a chisel (which is how I did the dai, but the mortise is much shallower and wider, it wasn't an issue there). Any chipping I had around the mouth would've been solved by either ignoring it or adding an insert, but I wasn't too happy with how things looked inside the cheeks.

Re: Simple all-purpose tool

eliotandmax

Wow! Did my post get highjacked to a new level! I have no idea what most of these experts are talking about! They're talking to each other -- not to me , who posted the question. You are clearly trying to help me out, but I don't understand you either. Sorry. what I don't get are your instructions for squaring the chisel; I don't know what you mean. ( I know a lot about turning, though; you can ask me anything!)

Simple

David Barnett

"I know a lot about turning, though; you can ask me anything!"

Grind the end of the chisel like a scraper.

Re: Simple all-purpose tool

TomD

Or alternatively form the end square with a small bevel on the down side. This gives a little more control in some cases. That is what I meant by like an engraver (google it). You can also sharpen it essentially like a domed scraper with curve to the end this will cut in deeper.

Hard to find the right thread for scrapers since there are so many types. Forrest Addy is a good source of info.

Or this kind of thing:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/home-built-scrapers-77579/

All that said, I think for wood planes a float is better, but as mentioned one is just removing wood there are always many other ways.

Re: Not the Dai

Pam Niedermayer

I find there are only two or three differences between coffin and Japanese smoothers:

1) Japanese is shorter

2) Single blade coffin includes a wood wedge in the abutments whereas the J blade sits there alone - and the shape of that wood wedge is very important

3) J blade is much thicker

So, not all that much different really.

Pam

Without the hook.

Re: Simple all-purpose tool

Bruce, a MN Galoot

Or grind the end off an old file, take the teeth off, and sharpen as you describe.

Re: Simple

eliotandmax

Boy, am I over my head! So, is what we're talking about basically a scraper that's only about, say, 1/4 inch wide? Then you remove very small amounts of wood using the burr on the end of this tool in a pulling motion across the mouth opening of the plane? Is that the idea? I will be cutting back about 1/4 inch of hard rosewood. I'm afraid this process will take me forever! Would it be some kind of sin to drill a straight line of small holes first?

Re: Simple *LINK*

craigd

This may help, Bill Carter has a write up on using "ground off chisels" (he also calls them blunt chisels).


Bill Carter

Re: Simple

eliotandmax

Thanks. But please take a look at the link you have suggested: right after he shows you how to grind this blunt-face chisel, there's a picture of him using it on some boxwood. But it's an ORDINARY bench chisel that he' using! Do you think he just posted the wrong photo? I will try it out with a blunt-shaped tool; but I have to admit that it seems very odd to me.

Re: Not the Dai

David Weaver

Right, those are the difference in specs.

However, the steeper bed and much deeper body on a coffin smoother makes it much harder to do, at least when comparing to a dai that doesn't have a ledge.

At the same time, the wedge provides a little bit of forgiveness in fitting the iron to the abutments. The abutments have to be right on the dai for the iron to be snug, but that is a matter of spending the time to get it right.

I've started and stopped two coffin smoothers, and my first dai was OK. Other people may feel differently, but I think it will be harder for most to make a tasteful functional coffin smoother because of the steepness and the depth of the mortise.

Re: Simple

TomD

I would not adjust a mouth with a metal scraper. It is perfectly easy to do with a file. In the metalworking field scrapers are used to fit parts down in into the tens (1/10000"), and to create "points" Perfectly flat surfaces will not hold oil, so surfaces are milled or ground flat, then the surface is final fitted by hand, by re-cutting with a scraper, and raising a certain number of point/inch, so that there is a space for oil in addition to the perfect fit.

Scrapers are useful to get into areas like ramps because you can sharpen a file with a grinder in a few seconds, and will not have to spend 200+ on all the floats a production plane maker might want, and they also work on metal.

Bending into files can be dangerous, though I have never hurt myself with a file, in any of the amusing ways that are suggested.

Re: Simple

TomD

It is just woodworking, you are removing a minute amount of wood. If you clamped a paint stick sized piece of wood low in you vise so it was stiff, and tried trimming it with a file, or chisel, or sandpaper on a stick, or nail file, etc... You would get a good sense of what it is you are doing. Sometimes there are sneaky little tricks, at other times it's just woodworking.

Re: Not the Dai

TomD

The thing about western wooden planes is every one I look at is different. I have yet to hear someone of the stature of Larry Williams do a piece on which style is best, and exactly what the best interface of abutments and wedge ear are. On many planes it doesn't mater, if the shaving misses the edges of the escapement anyway.

Difficulty wise, i think both are about the same, and I would agree that just making a working DAI is not all that difficult, compared to say dovetails (and it seems like a lot of people are comfortable with those). I don't agree about ramp steepness since the same range of angles is available in both, and while the Japanese may have more use for low angles, and while low angles work surprisingly well on a range of woods, it's the same story really, one should reach for the same angles in either. Ramp steepness on a Dai does add to height, and also makes the gription a more hair trigger affair because it is a more endgrain type fit.

Re: Not the Dai

TomD

"So, not all that much different really."

Funny often the Japanese scene is seen as very different, the idea of being opposite when one considers pull vs push, etc... The simple planing beam, the contortions used to hold the work, and so forth. But then we have the Roubo bench which is pretty simple, in joinery almost should have been Japanese. We have the saw bench and the knee vs, the foot, the loose wedge vs the integral wedge, even the clothing is not all that different when one compares climates. Certainly different enough to be interesting...

Re: Simple

craigd

> But it's an ORDINARY bench chisel that he' using!

True and it also has a square/blunt edge ground on it. It doesn't have to be big (it looks to me about 1/32" or so thick). If you look at a file that doesn't have teeth to the [square] tip, you have the same thing. I use them and I've also used plain ole ground flat stock (O1 blade blanks, used to square/flatten the bed, you can even stick on sandpaper if you wish).

Re: Not the Dai

Pam Niedermayer

Of course, I think the Japanese differences add up to superior tools.

Pam

Re: Simple all-purpose tool

eliotandmax

It works! I was beginning to think that the folks on this site all needed therapy! I mean, who in their right mind would go out of their way to purposely dull a perfectly sharp bench chisel?

I have to thank you all.

What I did was to just grind a tiny bit off the end of an old ordinary file -- the part that had no teeth. I didn't bother to hone it; I just wanted to see if you were all crazy -- or if this was some kind of initiation.You know, for me to find the left-handed sky hook. So what I have is along the lines of the Bill Carter blunt chisel. And it works beautifully! The only problem for widening the mouth of my newly made wooden India rosewood hand plane, is that this tool tends to compress the fibers toward the sides of the mouth -- I mean towards the parts of the Krenov -style plane where the sides are glued on. But I can deal with this minor problem. Thanks again!

Re: Not the Dai

David Weaver

Tom, have you made a good quality coffin smoother that is not compromised in any way versus one made in the late 18th to early 19th century?

I would guess the average coffin smoother is 10 degrees steeper and coupled with the depth being double or more, it is significantly harder to clear the mortise neatly.

The remaining details are also harder to execute by hand. The only thing easier is the abutments, because if you cut it neatly you can compensate for issues to some extent with the wedge.

I don't think many people would make both (successfully both in top line performance and looks) entirely by hand and conclude that they are about equal.

That's just my opinion, others may feel differently.

Re: Not the Dai

Pam Niedermayer

I'd bet there is no real difference between making a Japanese sole conditioning/scraper and a coffin. In both cases the bed is steep (very steep in the scraper) but the mouth is wide open so there's plenty of room for tools. The only planes that require floats or float like tools are those tall, thin, molding western planes. As before, I'd say the coffin's wedge is tricky.

Pam

Re: Simple all-purpose tool

Bob Hackett

Happy to hear it worked as well for you as it did for me. I also thought it was a crazy idea the first time I saw it done. Once you try it on tricky or reversed grain or wood that really doesn`t take to working in ways we`d like it to (like some exotics) then you begin to see the added control of taking those fine shavings makes sense.

Glad you stepped away from the screen and tried it in the shop. Sometimes the doing of it is the only thing that can bring the clarity we seek.

Re: Not the Dai

eliotandmax

Comparing two of the same kind of wooden hand planes, both made to fine standards of workmanship -- except that one has Krenov-style sides glued on and the other is chopped out of a single block, is there any functional difference? I can understand the idea of keeping to an older tradition in the latter; but will the planes perform differently? (You know already that I'm a beginner here.)

Re: Not the Dai

Pam Niedermayer

There are too many variables to say, but I can say, without confirmation of testing, that the Krenov style planes I've tried to use were inferior. Now, I didn't make them and there are several reasons they failed and/or were inadequate, but there you go.

I think good Krenov style planes have been made, as many attest; and if I were making molding planes, the first I'd try would be Krenov/Todd Herrli style.

Pam

Re: floating a file?

eliotandmax

Well, I finished my Krenov-style wooden hand plane and used what some said about the blunt chisel to widen the mouth. The plane cuts nicely; but I have a problem. I suppose I didn't widen the mouth enough because after just about every stroke, shavings get stuck in the mouth. My understanding is that a narrow mouth is good to keep pressure ahead of the cut to prevent tear out, but I have this clogging problem. O.K so I can widen the mouth a bit. But then it's hard to go back. Can you give me some insight about how much is enough? (I suppose I could just keep widening until it stops clogging.)

Re: floating a file?

TomD

The most likely reason to have a jam is because you have more blade sticking out, than you have space for the shaving going through. I measured a plane from my shop, an ECE, that does good work in fairly difficult wood. I chose it because it works and is commercial, they presumably know what average users and average wood requires from a finishing plane. I had installed a blue steel blade in it, and I had apparently not changed the mouth setting from wide open as it came in the box. That mouth opening, which is adjustable was, set at 50 thou.

Many of my planes have tighter mouths than that, but it's a number.

There are other possibles causes, breaker that is too close, undercut, poor fit, not smooth. Rough or overly closed escapements. Wedges, sorta same list as breakers. Lots of little things, but normally it is obvious from the region the clog starts in. Wood can also be a problem, as some collapse or fragment a little more than other. Obviously you expect to get around these problems with design. But the easier woods are easier to start with, like pine, or cherry, or maple.