floating a file?

Re: floating a file?

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

You might look at how thick your chips are, too. Clogging is caused, generally, by chips too thick for the mouth opening; so it's a tradeoff between the chip thickness you want and the mouth opening that will accommodate that thickness. If this is intended as a smoother, look at whether you're generating thin chips; if as a jack or other material-reduction plane, a larger opening is probably desirable.

Either way, you may need to fine-tune the opening.

Also look at your iron/chipbreaker relationship, and the wedge. If chips are getting snagged between iron and chipbreaker or between chipbreaker and wedge, you can get the same effect.

Disclaimer: I have limited wooden plane experience. These thoughts are extrapolated from similar kinds of issues with metal planes.

Re: floating a file?

eliotandmax

They're getting caught right between the sharp edge of the blade and the front of the mouth. I have to reach in there with something sharp and dig them out. I'm not sure what I could possibly do about the wedge except maybe make sure it's seated properly and evenly across the iron. What is the effect of moving the chip breaker closer or further away from the sharp edge of the blade? Do you find that metal planes work better? If so, why did I work so hard making this plane?!

Re: floating a file?

TomD

"They're getting caught right between the sharp edge of the blade and the front of the mouth. I have to reach in there with something sharp and dig them out."

Yeah well the blade is probably in too deep. It is a pretty easy to make a plane take a 1 thou shaving that is several times thicker than a page, which is normally around 4 thou. Unless your shavings are down to that point or less, then you can easily lesson the log jam by reducing blade projection. If you are already getting a shaving around the size you want, then the mouth could be opened a little at a time to insure you get the escapement you need. Whille one certainly doesn't need a caliper to make a plane I find it makes it easier to have some numbers.

"I'm not sure what I could possibly do about the wedge except maybe make sure it's seated properly and evenly across the iron."

You can make the back of the wedge just a hair hollow lengthwise. That will help keep the tip flush. You don't want the wedge to go down any nearer the edge than necessary because it closes the escapement.

"What is the effect of moving the chip breaker closer or further away from the sharp edge of the blade?"

If you move it too close it will stop the cut, and jam the plane. If you have it just right, the shaving doesn't curl, goes straight up, and if you aren't in the way falls over the planed surface. And/or you get an improvement in the cut. If you have it too far back, you can end up with not enough down pressure on the edge, or you can end up with the wedge no longer working. In most situations a chip breaker is not needed, I just use thick blades most of the time. If you have a really hard to plane wood then the CB can be part of a solution. There are a lot of things you can change to improve cut, and CB is one of them. But if you are not planing difficult woods, or are final finish sanding, they are seldom worth the trouble.

"Do you find that metal planes work better? If so, why did I work so hard making this plane?!"

I think wooden planes are generally superior, I prefer metal block planes, and other boutique uses. But in general there is not a practical performance difference. Wooden plane advantages are:

- lighter weight when doing a lot of work

- lower friction without need for wax

- warm to the touch

- cheap and fast to make, I can make one to the point of cut in 45 minutes

- Therefore customizable. Want a 40 inch jointer, with a 35 degree bade set, done....

- Faster to get the blade in and out for resharpening, and if your fingers hurt they are easier to handle

- Easier to set, once you get the hang of it, no backlash

- If you overload it the blade doesn't pivot and gouge, it just backs out.

- Consumer wise they can fulfill all the normal needs, other than being super popular around the woodworking water cooler

Take a few deep breaths

David Barnett

"Do you find that metal planes work better?"

I would suggest it's premature to question wood versus metal bench planes following a solitary trial of your very first home-built plane, and that top performance will be had by thinking things through then adjusting things to prove the quality and accuracy of your thinking -- that is, maybe slow down when cornering the learning curve. Read and think about the advice from TomD, Bill Houghton and others before jumping to conclusions.

"If so, why did I work so hard making this plane?!"

I would hope that most of us would build our first wooden-bodied plane to enjoy the process of making, learning, improving and using. Maybe slow down and enjoy the process, experience the joys of successive refinement. Do you really need total gratification and success on your first try?

Don't give up. But don't expect your first attempt to perform like a Primus or a Williams or a well-tuned Krenov smoother.

Re: Take a few deep breaths

eliotandmax

I didn't jump to any conclusions; I just asked. Anyway, it's my second Krenov plane. But I get your point. I'm having fun, and I will stick with it.

Oops.

David Barnett

"I didn't jump to any conclusions; I just asked. Anyway, it's my second Krenov plane. But I get your point."

My bad, then. So I jumped to the conclusion in this instance, although these days I'm glad I can jump to anything.

"I'm having fun, and I will stick with it."

Great! It gets better.

Re: floating a file?

craigd

I don't know how wide the mouth is, this only applies if it is under 10 thou - I find some woods just do not like a super thin mouth (Cocobolo being one); it might plane fine at a mouth setting of 9 thou but completely fail at 4.

Re: floating a file?

bob

Tom D.,

You say you can make a japanese plane in 45 mins. I have $25.00 to pay for a video of you doing this. Understand, I dont doubt that you can. I want to be able to do this. There are many others like me.

Re: floating a file?

Pam Niedermayer

Bob, Tom and I attended a dai making seminar together, 10 or 11 years ago. I don't wear a watch, so I can't attest to any time with precision, but Inomoto-san whipped out a blade matched dai in about an hour, or a little less, while answering questions. It was magical (and I won that plane). But he practices day after day.

Tom makes great dai, and I'd bet when he's in form he can approach that 45 minute number. Probably would be a tuned plane, too. I never make a bunch of them at a time, so I always need time for a refresher course before I start building. I'd say it takes me about 3 hours to get to a tuned plane, including the refresher instructions.

Pam

Re: floating a file?

TomD

You are too kind Pam.

45 minutes wise that is a Krenov style plane. I did a time sheet for it before an LV seminar (that I managed to stretch out for 8 hours, some folks commented that the seminar could have been shorter. It`s comments like that, that are the reason I don`t teach any more. ). I think 45 min was a dead accurate estimate, but it did not include any delays finding stuff that should be at one`s fingertips in a normal shop, I can spend 45 minuted trying to find the key to a drill chuck (pre RE magnets). I also cut a minute or two off for the time spent keeping time. Does not include the time for glue to dry.

I also made the blade from a file, and that took 45 minutes. That really surprised me. I didn`t have my 2x72 at the time and the time spent grinding off file marks, and generally neatening up the blade was about half the 45 minutes. I`m sure I can make a blade from O1 in less time.

I might do a youtube video someday. The reason I included a timeline was to encourage folks to feel that even if it took 3 times longer for them to do, and it isn`t immediately clear why that would be, it would still be a pretty small project.

I do have a DOC file of the timeline from the seminar handout, and I can send that to you if you give me your email. I just got a new computer and I do not have a WP installed and what opens in notebook is a bit of a mess, so I can`t post it here yet.

Re: Draft brochure

TomD

I think I could make a Japanese plane to the point you get them when you buy them in 45 minutes, but I know I can`t get it to the first cut with any regularity in that time. Other than the block a Japanese plane is pretty much all hand work, and the final blade fitting will take a while.

I offered to do a seminar at LV on making a Japanese plane, and I got some initial support, and they asked me to do a proposal. I never heard back after that, presumably it got filtered into a spam trap. It was a tight time-line for publication, and it also would have used up the last few dozen of the Japanese plane blades they had available for purchase. But I was really kinda disappointed I never got a chance because I figure there is demand out there.

Here is my submission, I wonder if there would have been any interest. At the time I was off the computer for about a year in case that reference sounds odd.

''Hi Xxxxxxx,

Here is the draft Brochure copy. One thing that I omited is the dimension of the plane. People may want to know what that is, so to avoid a million questions you could put in the blade width which is purportedly 44mm with a cut of 39 mm. But if you think referring to it as a "block" plane is sufficient, that would be more flexible since people may want to customize to their own size, and we don't yet have the stock.

Also, you will note that I claim "All tools and materials will be supplied", which is really up to you. I can provide a tool list, in most cases people who meet the experience requirement should have some/most of these tools. Roughly it would be:

Used throughout seminar, therefore one per maker:

-Bench (could be shared if they have enough vises on them)

-mallet

-chisel, sturdy enough to mortise the block

-fine chisel to clean escapements ( one per pair would do)

Used periodically and could be shared:

-Plane, bench or block

-Japanese keyhole saw fine, or similar http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32933&cat=1,42884,50321

pencil, square, adjustable bevel

Stock we didn't discuss in addition to the block and blade would be some hardwood scrap about 1.25" x 2" x12", a small piece of plywood stock to protect bench surface. There should be some spare plane blocks in case anyone goofs the project.

I gave up email but you can get me afternoons at 9xx-xxx-xxxx, or if it isn't urgent I check my email every few days.

Thomxx xxxxxxxl

Copied in case brochure file won't open:

Make a Japanese Block Plane

6.5 hours

Japanese planes have a reputation for extraordinary performance, on par with other Japanese tools like waterstones and handsaws. These wooden planes excel at everything from polishing wood to a natural finish, to breaking wood down quickly to working dimensions. Learn how to master these planes through hands on construction of your own Japanese block plane. Learn how to design planes for high performance in planeable hardwoods and softwoods of all types. Many tips and trick covered will be of interest to users of hand planes of any type. Expand confidence in planning, chiselling, and sawing to a line. This is a hand tools wood working project, some basic skill in the use of chisels, planes and saws is required. All tools and materials will be supplied.''

Re: floating a file?

eliotandmax

Given that your 45 min doesn't include the time for the glue to dry, doesn't that mean that you still have to wait overnight to clean up the plane, etc.? (I'm assuming that you wouldn't want to work on the plane after, say ,20 minutes of glue -up. ) I still think that it's amazing and I am certainly impressed.

Re: Oops.

eliotandmax

You can't jump? What' wrong? I broke my ankle and can't either. Actually my OEB -- that's 'Olde English Bulldogee' -- broke it running me over from behind! A metal plate, seven stainless steel screws, and some kind of wire contraption in there. (He didn't mean it.) It's been over a year and it's about 98 % now. Unfortunately, all the favoring for it messed up the other foot; so it hurts when I walk or stand at the lathe. I'll live. I'm really enjoying this site, I can tell you! I can't quite get over the Zen sort of focusing on incredibly subtle issues. It appeals to me in a strange kind of way. I can't help but wonder what kind of stuff you all make with these incredible tools. Perhaps someone can post some pictures.

Re: floating a file?

TomD

Yeah that sounds like me. I am usually not in a rush. But technically with stuff like Titebond you can work on it the same day. I would prefer to wait and let the moisture dissipate. I sometimes use epoxy, because I have a process were the block can be made pretty much inert to moisture and as stable as a metal plane.

Mortising is faster if that is what you want. there is a video of Inamoto and it seems to take him about ten minutes to get the blade in from a dead start.

Re: Oops.

TomD

Yeah, I blew both feet off in a plane crash, the commercial type with jets, and that was just for starters. Broken ankles are kinda a limitation.

I'm not so sure on the Zen thing it tends not to be permissive of questions or focused on details. It is sorta the focus on one thing, though in a context where all things are interrelated. The western desire to atomize where truth is seen in discovering ever greater and finer distinctions, and then constructing a whole, is sorta the opposite. It`s "all good"

Re: floating a file?

eliotandmax

Hard for a newbe to imagine getting everything out, flat, parallel, etc. with a chisel and some rasps, if that's how he does it. I mean , I read about people going to the lengths of using graphite or ink to check where things touch, etc. to get parts together properly. Even with a really good eye, I can't imagine it. I'm not doubting it -- just amazed.

Re: floating a file?

TomD

"Hard for a newbe to imagine getting everything out, flat, parallel, etc. with a chisel and some rasps, if that's how he does it."

I don't think he uses rasps. Chisels, saw, drill, so forth.

" I mean , I read about people going to the lengths of using graphite or ink to check where things touch, etc. to get parts together properly."

Yeah he does that but it comes after he gets the blade in. I like dry erase marker

" Even with a really good eye, I can't imagine it. I'm not doubting it -- just amazed."

He does use layout (actually that may not be in the video, so a few more moments there, and he spots the blade in, but one of the things that makes a plane faster to cut in is that rather than following the ink, you imagine what it is telling you and you go for that shape. In spotting in the idea is to find the high points with ink, and then remove them and test again to get a perfect surface. Appropriate when doing an action on a best shotgun where the parts were initially CNC cut to + tolerances, or when getting points on a tool way. But with wood, while using cutting tools you need to do a somewhat bold cut. Let's say you had a plane that would cut 4 tens. How efficient do you figure it might be cutting 1 ten? Obviously not very. The solution is to cut to what you think the final line will be with enough of a chip that you have control. So one reads the spots as an indication of what the final resting place will be. The longer one can do that without resorting to chasing individual spots down, the faster the job goes, and if you are a real master, the better the final surface will be if it comes from the chisel.

This is a pretty general woodworking principle, when chopping dovetails, if one wanted to cope them for whatever reason (cut waste out with a coping saw), and leave enough to finish with a chisel, then it seems better to me to leave enough there to make for a solid cut than too little. Too much and the coping is a waste of time. Same thing on a bowl, I start cutting what I hope will be the final shape with confident cuts. I swing that shape even if I am cutting air most of the time, I don't let the initial surface dictate my sweep (well I do for safety sake if the block has dangerous or off weight lumps on it, but generally). I do not try to make very light cuts to lower high points that are next to low points. Visualize the final shape, and cut to it. When learning one has to count on a plan B, so maybe a beginner ends up doing a little more shear scraping of the final surface until they get the skill to cut all the way down with full gouge cuts. Same thing with an axe, you want to hew a beam you need to take enough of a cut to not bounce the axe out of the cut, but not so much it sticks.

It is like driving down the road. If a person had never driven it would sound like magic to say that drivers do not pay direct attention to the lines, they sorta look off into the distance. Magic right? But everyone learns that the lines are not good to look at because they are what the car wants to be between, not what it should be aimed at. Even when shooting a rifle there is the line of sight, the line of the bore to target, and the trajectory of the bullet, and they are a lot more than theoretically present if one does something like cant the rifle or pistol. In golf, I have been playing for 16 years and still can't get a consistent based on fundamentals answer about these kinds of issues. It gets complicated, but can be interesting trying to figure out what is going on. People sometimes wonder what the heck I am doing when they are talking to me, because I may have lost anything approaching eye contact. I'm off lining up objects in the environment with my eyes. Can't help it.

Re: floating a file?

Pam Niedermayer

Sure, I'd love to see your doc; but I'm not sure how to send you an email other than to embed it in a message, and that way goes caution. Seems we used to be able to email from a message, or private message I suppose.

Pam

Re: floating a file?

Pam Niedermayer

I'm not sure which plane you're talking about now; but there is no glue used in a Japanese plane.

Pam

Re: floating a file?

TomD

Krenov plane is the one I saw and glue, that is where the thread with the 45 minutes started out. I'm not sure where the Japanese part started, except that various threads have been back and forth. One can make Japanese planes that way also, if one is so inclined, but it takes more time. Really` not that different from constructing western planes, if one has power saws it can seem an easier route. A lot of people have better power tool chops than hand chisel chops. It wasn't traditional to construct western planes from parts, but it is accepted by some these days. All as you know.

Re: floating a file?

Pam Niedermayer

Yeah, but I figured the thread was hard enough to follow that a couple of others may be a bit confused, just wanted to avoid unnecessary misconceptions about glue. Actually, as I reread this it was LOL - "Yuck, yuck", as Goofy says. Or maybe it's that Nashville Skyline playing in the background.

Pam

Re: Oops.

eliotandmax

Holy Sh*&^%! I reread your post! What an injury! I suppose I'll have to stop whining about one broken ankle. I suppose the good part is that the rest of you is still here.