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About Harrelson Stanley?

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About Harrelson Stanley?

#1

About Harrelson Stanley?

eliot d

Is his name one that you know? I found him in customer service at Shapton and purchased his sharpening DVD called Side Sharpening. Haven't got it yet. I called him to ask some questions about a large granite plate that I just bought. It's massive, and the manufacturer claims it's flat at .001 (mm/ meter). Given what I've been reading here, that seems hard to believe. But even if it's anywhere close to that, I would have to believe that it's pretty flat! I thought I would try some diamond paste on it to sharpen chisels and plane irons. H.Stanley seems extremely knowledgeable to me -- as many are here; and he was advocating their diamond-on-glass flattening stone(expensive) to use to flatten water stones and stick to sharpening on them. His point was that this granite plate is good only for flattening a metal plane, but it would seem to me that one could use diamond paste on it an sharpen as I had wished to do. I can take the granite back, if I want. What is your advice?

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#2

David Barnett

Fairly well-known in these parts

David Barnett

"...the manufacturer claims it's flat at .001 (mm/ meter). Given what I've been reading here, that seems hard to believe."

I'd suggest Toolroom Grade B to be sufficiently flat for woodworking tool related tasks.

SIZE____OVERALL ACCURACY (in.)

09" x 12" 0.0002

12" x 18" 0.0002

18" x 24" 0.0003

24" x 36" 0.0004

36" x 48" 0.0008

Forrest Addy, well-respected on woodworking and machinist forums alike, listed the flatness tolerance for the different grades of surface plates as follows:

• Laboratory Grade AA: (40 + diagonal [in inches] of surface plate squared / 25) x 0.000001 inches.

• Inspection Grade A: Laboratory Grade AA x 2

• Inspection Grade B: Laboratory Grade AA x 4

I'll leave it to you to convert to metric.

Harrelson Stanley is thoroughly knowledgeable and reliable. As for using diamond directly on a granite surface plate, you would quickly and unnecessarily ruin it. The idea behind lapping is to embed the abrasive particles into a surface softer than that which you wish to flatten/sharpen, in this case, tool steel. Glass is cheap, and while not ideal, is fine for your purpose at your level of experience. So my advice is to take Harrelson's advice. If you have no other reason to own and use a surface plate, return it.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#3

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

david weaver

I personally like the stones, too, but my advice on the diamond hone is to get any reputable diamond hone - DMT, Atoma, the Koyama one Stu sells (even though I thought there was something on it about not using it on stones, I doubt it's hurt by flattening stones).

The shapton diamond flattening hone is a completely unnecessary expense unless you're looking for somewhere to put your money. It is exorbitantly expensive for what it is when there are so many decent diamond plates that will do the same job for relatively cheap (~$50-$100)

I don't like the glasstones, either. The professional stones are a much better value. I don't understand what shaptons value proposition is giving you 5mm of abrasive at a premium stone price when you could just stick the pro stones to any free glass or wood and have 15mm of abrasive.

Just my opinion, I have wasted money on plenty of things, so it's not like I'm poo-pooing anything just because it's expensive.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#4

Re: Fairly well-known in these parts

eliot d

Based on what I read in the long thread on sharpening with diamond paste , three lessons seemed to be: (1) that the substrate should be as flat as possible, (2) that the substrate should be stable and something that doesn't flex, and (3) that cast iron was often considered excellent . It appeared, also, that granite was good also. So when I came across a very flat, 9 x 12 in. heavy, thick (two inches) granite plate, I figured this would be a good substrate for this diamond paste sharpening process. Now I'm not so sure. What is the typical use for such a plate? I already have a long piece of thick plate glass for putting emery paper on for flattening a plane. Perhaps I'll just buy the LV system online and be done with it. Or better still, stick to my Norton stones and call what I get sharp -- sharp enough.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#5

To clarify

Bill Tindall

The advantage of diamonds is definitely not that they get a tool sharper, or even sharper faster, unless you are sharpening one of the abrasion resistant alloys like M2, M4 etc.

Post what part of sharpening you want to improve and advice can be offered as to whether diamond will provide benefit over what you have, as well as how to best utilize diamonds.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#6

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

TomD

Granite plates are normally used for measurement, inspection, and for blueprinting surfaces. Not all of them are expensive. My local machine place is selling some for 35 bucks that are 12x18, I was thinking of using a few of them for a baking island. I would try your idea on a side or corner, and if it works it works. We have LV telling us cast is not necessary, Harrelson saying some kind of glass is good. Someone presumably competent has got the granite working. It takes less time to try it than argue about it, and doubtless you can find a region on the surface you can try it out on without affecting the utility of the plate, unless your main concern is returning it.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#7

David Barnett

This may not simplify your decision, Eliot... *LINK*

David Barnett

...but maybe it'll help in spite of its length.

"(1) that the substrate should be as flat as possible, (2) that the substrate should be stable and something that doesn't flex, and (3) that cast iron was often considered excellent."

(1) Well, things can be made flatter than you might imagine, although past a certain flatness there would be little or no benefit to woodworkers for flattening or sharpening tools. Now just how flat something would have to be to make no appreciable difference is a point of contention, often a seemingly endless source of great delight for some on both sides of the issue, and for others a source of ongoing irritation.

Let's for the moment agree that flat should be affordable, readily available, and, well, flat enough rather than "as flat as possible" which can be relegated to those with needs for far greater precision than we woodworkers would likely require. (I realize my wording borders on nonsensical, but bear with me.)

For me, that would generally mean ±0.001" over the length of a honing stone or lapping plate would reach my limit of acceptability. For other purposes, I'd demand tighter tolerances, but ±0.001" is within reason. Well, I could live with it, but I'd likely grouse about it and if possible, improve upon it.

For others, looser tolerances might suffice. Norton rates their diamond honing stones at ±0.002", which I could not personally accept. Lee Valley allows ±0.005" over the total length of their 8" mild steel honing plates, which is well out of my comfort zone. Fortunately, the LV plates arrive without an abrasive charge, that is, no diamond or SiC grit has yet become embedded in their surfaces, so these plates can be improved upon should one have the means and skills to do so.

At any rate, my advice is to adopt ±0.001" as your target tolerance, which I believe to be a reasonable and affordable expectation for honing stones or plates. For genuine lapping plates, I'd try for better, but that's me, and I'd have little trouble shaving off a few ten-thousandths of an inch and likely have fun doing it.

(2) Things flex, and depending on the area and thickness of surface plates, even granite will flex. But for practical purposes, a thick grey cast iron lapping plate, say 3/4" x 12" supported on another fairly flat surface will factor flex out of the equation. Now 1/2" glass can do the job, but it's more flexible than you might suppose and care should be taken to support it evenly.

(3) Cast iron, especially continuously cast iron such as Meehanite was and still is the standard by which all other diamond lapping substrates should rightfully be measured. I won't go into why this is so, but it is. Let's allow, however, that other substrates are viable (if less desirable), and can be made to work for woodworking tool flattening and sharpening if a) they are sufficiently and evenly flat, b) are sufficiently smooth enough to allow the smallest abrasive particle size you intend to use to do its job, c) are not so soft as to allow the abrasive particles to sink so deeply into the substrate as to be rendered ineffective, and d) are soft enough and the molecular/crystalline structure is favorable to embedment depth and advantageous presentation of abrasive particles.

While the above may be intuitive to some, to others, especially those with little loose grit sharpening experience, it helps to remember that fairly friable stones, such as waterstones, release loose and fractured particles, forming a slurry-swarf mixture that further refines the surface of the tool undergoing abrasive alteration, similar to the lapping process with loose abrasive compound or grit.

Moving on...

"It appeared, also, that granite was good also..."

Granite has advantages of reasonable flatness, ready availability at fairly low cost, especially with the advent of cheap Chinese surface plates, good surface polish, and no real flexibility issues. It is not suitable nor appropriate for abrasive embedment for lapping, however. The advantage of the surface plate is its flatness, stability, surface finish, and in some cases, it's mass. Scratching or abrading the surface of the granite is to be avoided, rendering less than useful for its intended purpose, as a reference tool for flatness and for determining and marking thickness.

It is only lately that granite surface plates have become popular with woodworkers as providing a flat surface to use with intermediary smooth-backed abrasive films, papers, cloths, and so. As inexpensive as these Grade B plates are, I have no problem with using them this way. The trick is to cover the granite surface with the abrasive material to minimize and avoid damage to the plate while accomplishing the intended flattening, smoothing, sharpening, or polishing operation.

One can, for example, temporarily glue a sheet of sandpaper to the plate and flatten the sole of a plane, or affix an abrasive plastic film with water surface tension for polishing a plane blade or chisel back, and so on.

Beyond these direct abrading operations, if the granite surface flatness is maintained and not damaged from abrasives, the surface plate can be used to test and refine a tool, such as a cast iron plane sole, to flatness with a machinist's scraper, a tool that shaves cast iron until the desired tolerance is attained. Granted, this is more of a machinist's operation than a woodworking one, but it is a satisfying and surprising fast way to improve plane performance. Nearly all my planes were flattened this way.

"Perhaps I'll just buy the LV system online and be done with it."

Lee Valley does make a nice cast iron lapping plate that can be used to flatten plane blade and chisel backs. Their new steel honing plates are less flat than I would find useful, but if you were to take the time and effort to improve them slightly, even though they're steel rather than cast iron, the price and ready availability might work out for you. If you use them to mostly do bevel work instead of flattening backs, especially with narrower chisels, these may work just fine for you out of the box. I'll admit I was disappointed that these plates weren't cast iron, but I do appreciate the difficulty of bringing affordable flat cast iron plates to the woodworking public.

One thing, though; to avoid contamination using more than one diamond grit size in your shop, (your being fairly new to this way of sharpening), you might adopt the method that I, Bill Tindall and others have found to be useful. Get a 600-grit diamond honing stone such as a DMT, Norton, or EZ-Lap (EZ-Lap makes a nice long 2-1/2″ x 11-3/8″ x 3/8″, the model 121F for $59.95 -- I know they call it fine, but believe me, it's more medium than fine and more coarse than medium) and use this for most of your bevel work and even for flattening, then use a plate charged with 14,000-grit diamond paste for your final honing. Typically, you'd grind your bevel on sandpaper (ScarySharp), a coarse stone, belt sander or bench grinder, then move to the 600-grit diamond stone, and then finally to the plate charged with 14,000-grit (1μ) diamond paste. Easy, fast, cheap and lasts for years.

"Or better still, stick to my Norton stones and call what I get sharp -- sharp enough."

And as Bill Tindall pointed out in his reply, this may be a perfectly sound solution. If you want to test how sharp your blades are, though, you can always get some 1μ diamond paste, smear a bit on something reasonably flat and preferably softer than a plane blade or chisel, and give it shot. If you're amazed, problem solved. If less than amazed, problem solved.


121F    Fine Grit (600) - near bottom of page

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#8

This will......

Bill Tindall

Presuming you are sharpening as part of building stuff (not an obvious presumption for some on this Forum have other purposes such as sharpening research, etc. ).........Use what you already have until you find the result unsatisfactory for making stuff for some reason. If you identify some place where improvement is desirable, get clear in your mind what you want to improve. Only then start asking how this factor could be improved in the context of how you intend to use the tool (making stuff, sharpening research, etc.)

Guidance- Professionals making stuff don't do much fretting over sharpening. Nor do they sharpen to the standards often discussed on this Forum nor with devices at the standards discussed on this Forum. If the tool does the job it is good enough if the focus is on using the tool.

An example of this process: I found sharpening with abrasive sheets slow, yet as effective as any alternative method for my needs. My motivation was to improve speed at lowest cost. I already owned a grinder. So my route to improvement was to grind a hollow bevel, straighten it on a fixed diamond plate and hone with diamond on cast iron(total investment of less than $100). The first two steps are commonly practiced in professional shops. A fine stone also works for the final step.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#9

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

david weaver

I think we're either not on the same wavelength or maybe your post was a response to a different post.

Reference granite is cheap, and probably will be for a long time.

Shapton's lapping systems for stones are not cheap, they are all in a price range that in my opinion makes no sense.

Going by Jende's price list (i can't find the prices on harrelson's page) their plain cast plate is $197 despite the fact that it is about the size of a sharpening stone.

Their diamond on glass plate is well over $300 and their diamond reference plate (DRLP) is well over $500.

I find it somewhat offensive that any of those are being pushed on woodworkers at all. Though I like shaptons pro stones, it's my opinion that the rest of the stuff is made in search of a mark.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#10

Agree....I had no idea

Bill Tindall

It would seem that no matter what one makes or what is charged someone will buy it for mostly flawed reasons. Apparently there is more money sloshing around out there than I can imagine.

Sharpening for practical purposes is an exercise that should be done cheaply and quickly. (spend the money on the lumber) There may be a few studying these sorts of topics or entering contests that would require the nth degree of sharpness. But fitting a drawer is not something that requires hundreds of dollars of stuff, hours of practice, nor lengthy edge preparation.

I suspect that buying something different and more costly never solves the more common problem of not knowing how to effectively use what is already in hand.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#11

Re: This will......

TomD

"Guidance- Professionals making stuff don't do much fretting over sharpening. Nor do they sharpen to the standards often discussed on this Forum nor with devices at the standards discussed on this Forum. If the tool does the job it is good enough if the focus is on using the tool."

I think that is a bit of a bum steer, though doubtless based on something. If you start with even the hacks in the woodworking trade in NA, the carpenters, they regularly use very sharp replaceable blade tools. These would require a full sharpening if they were not replaceable. If one goes to the art or cabinet level, I just don't get where these people are not sharpening to a high standard. There is an uber level for games like tool reviews, and race planes, but everyone should be going to the hair popping razor edge. It is faster to do it right, than wrong, I don't see any time savings in doing a bad job. There are pros working in places like the Collins Guitar factory who are full on Japanese tool nuts. There are other activities like barbering, surgery, or engraving where dull tools are hardly professional. Could one, and therefore has someone, found a work around for working with sharp tools, probably, but I would not promote that as a strength. I think Scott Nearing, a "pro", was closer to the mark when he described sharpening as the gateway to the craft. And frankly, if you can't do that, you aren't for real.

Of course one can completely bypass hand methods, but I assume that isn't the conversation.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#12

Re: Agree....I had no idea

TomD

"Sharpening for practical purposes is an exercise that should be done cheaply and quickly. (spend the money on the lumber) There may be a few studying these sorts of topics or entering contests that would require the nth degree of sharpness. But fitting a drawer is not something that requires hundreds of dollars of stuff, hours of practice, nor lengthy edge preparation."

You can do it cheaply and quickly. If your drawer has "secondary wood" that is tiger maple, you may have to raise your game a little. I was at the LN demo at Century mill last week. AA maple was 15 bucks a bft. This isn't a cheap craft, and cabinetmakers are in the overkill business. In the overkill business, your funeral director could come to you in a lab coat and jeans, but you probably expect something a little more formal. And talking about pros, when there were pros in this field, they often had the same approach to their tools and skills. They had to earn the work if they were after the plumb jobs, as they do today. So a certain amount of showmanship does not hurt.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#13

Re: Agree....I had no idea

david weaver

I can't think of any maple I've ever run across that needed more than a 6k stone and a plain leather strop.

Actually, I can't think of any wood in general, unless it would be something that isn't compliant to a plane at all.

Sharper than that is nice to have, I usually work sharper than that, but it takes no longer.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#14

That's what I am talking about

Bill Tindall

Will Neptune arrived for class with chisels hollow ground on a wheel grinder, the edge straightened on a fixed diamond plate and the resulting edge refined on black ARK stone.(I asked because his chisel edges looked like mine) The sum of these steps is a few minutes and the cost of equipment not much. During the two day class he used mainly two chisels (rarely a third wide one) to cut a multitude of joints that would be used in case goods, tables and chairs. Mid way he stroked the chisel he used for refined cuts a few times on a piece of limp leather charged with something. That is what I am talking about when I say that professionals use methods that are cheap, quick and easy. I haven't seen any posts on this Forum of furniture that surpasses what Will sells. That is what I mean by adequate.

I can imagine that the amateur woodworker making drawer sides from curly maple would be the sort of person that had an unlimited budget to spend on sharpening stuff and infinite patience to diddle with the process. ...Which is why it is useful to put one's recommendations in the context of how/what for the recommendation is used.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#15

David Barnett

Futility against the juggernaut

David Barnett

"Use what you already have until you find the result unsatisfactory for making stuff for some reason. If you identify some place where improvement is desirable, get clear in your mind what you want to improve. Only then start asking how this factor could be improved in the context of how you intend to use the tool (making stuff, sharpening research, etc.)"

Consider, Bill, that should you persist down this path, persist in your efforts to succinctly simplify sharpening and other hand tool woodworking practices, that before very long there will be no need to discourse upon the finer, more esoteric dimensions of toolmaking and tool maintenance, thereby reducing forum participants to the vulgarity of simply making things with the least fuss and bother (a well-intentioned but overrated and wrong-headed prospect), undermining and unraveling the prevailing forum culture which has so long and so well served to defend against such utilitarian, plebeian and proletarian pursuits, this misguided mission to exalt mere mundane functionality, showing little respect for our longstanding Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce manner of maintaining, preserving, elevating the mystique and prestige of high craftmanship, an egalitarian rending of the veil, ineluctably undermining the rightful hierarchy where each knows his or her proper place in the natural order of our craft, a bleak outcome if ever there was a bleak outcome which is, for me, nearly too much to bear. For shame! Fie on you, sir! Fie!

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#16

What he said. :-)


Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#17

Re: To clarify

eliot d

Well, if truth be told, I really don't even use chisels and hand planes much. I'm really a turner in the David Ellsworth style. But I just like the idea of sharpening; it pleases me to sharpen chisels and plane irons, and I have made two wood planes --one really good that I made with David Fink years ago and another similar one using one of his irons that I just finished. (But this last one doesn't work very well.) I like hanging around on this site, and I try to contribute , mostly by trying to ask hopefully useful questions, when I can. I am continually impressed by the level of knowledge and expertise shown here. I have noticed, though, that despite all the emphasis on flatness, I still haven't seen anyone say how to measure it. I can tell you from experience in a past life that the way to do it right is with diffraction methods, where accuracy to within the wavelength of light is what you get. Anyway, to respond to your kind invitation to tell you how I do it, here goes: For a chisel, say, I start on the back with two DMT diamond plates -- first red then green. I then move on to 1000 , 4000 and 8000 grit Norton water stones, which I first flatten with the Norton flatting stone. Sometimes I substitute an 8000 grit water stone made in Japan for the last Norton( it produces more "slurry" on top.) I then move on to two Spyderco Cermac Whet Stones, one marked fine grit (blue case) and one marked ultra fine grit (black case). Finally I hone on something called The NO. 25 "Damascus Camel" razor hone and then, finally, on a razor honing block called , DAISEY. This last one is fairly soft -- you can mark it with your finger nail. My next step would be to grind the bevel on a power grinder at the angle I want and then work the bevel freehand as I did for the back -- except skipping the diamond plates. The chisel comes out are pretty sharp. But even at age 73 I wanted to get to be one of you"big boys"( and girls --Pam). That's when I saw the long thread on the LV diamond paste/steel plate stuff. If I had to state a specific goal, I would say , now , that I would like to make another wood hand plane and sharpen the iron to get really fine shavings. I do all right with the one I made with David; but I would like to get those super fine shavings that I see online here and there. So here I am.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#18

Don't look to me for advice...

Bill Tindall

My standards and patience are vastly less so what I do will be of little value to you.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#19

succinctly simplify sharpening

Pam Niedermayer

Now that was a masterful paragraph, David. It does seem to be futile to try to stop juggernauts, which seem to gather speed and force as they travel through populations and which have been created by some leader, who keeps whipping it up. I think that Bill stands a chance to succeed, as long as he maintains that leadership and repetition.

Pam

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#20

Re: Don't look to me for advice...

eliot d

Your advice would not be of little value to me if your way of doing things ( as I am beginning to suspect) has to do with efficiency. Getting the same results with fewer steps, less effort, etc is clearly superior -- if indeed the results are as good. I mean, why do it the hard way? I suspect it's my inexperience that has led me to too much work. Perhaps you could just read what I wrote and suggest some simplifications. That's why I posted in the first place: I had gotten the idea -- here -- that diamond paste on a flat surface or perhaps diamond film would indeed be easier and maybe better.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#21

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

eliot d

Pardon my inexperience, but what do you mean, please, by a 'professional' stone? And how can you measure an amount of abrasive by a length, e.g. 5 mm?

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#22

Re: Futility against the juggernaut

eliot d

Such a literary comment! And I naively thought this site was about hand tools! I feel better because lately I have been thinking that my world had gotten very small indeed. Perhaps not.

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#23

Re: Futility against the juggernaut

Pam Niedermayer

Well, you do have to be a little clever in positioning so you don't arouse the "off-topic" gods. :)

Pam

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#24

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

David Weaver

shapton basically makes two lines of high grit density stones, the glasstones and the professional stones.

The thickness of the abrasive layer on the glasstones is 5mm thick. The glass is probably about the same amount again.

The professional stones (which coincidentally are cheaper) are 15mm thick and all abrasive.

Shaptons contention is that you can't use all of the abrasive because the stone gets thin at some point and fragile. That's something you can easily get around just by gluing the stone to something in the first place. I use stable wood, some people use glass (I believe derek has used glass).

Re: About Harrelson Stanley?

#25

David Barnett

Another trick...

David Barnett

... is to compose sentences of such length and loquacity (forgoing my usual brevity) as to dissuade dissection, deconstruction or even convenient quotation, thereby minimizing refutation. Sometimes this works, sometimes not. At any rate, my paragraph's leading sentence of 174 words has bested even John Stuart Mill's 161-word record-holding philosophical sentence in Utilitarianism (ch. 2), in length only, of course, never approaching his depth, quality of thought, gravity, import or eloquence:

“We may give what explanation we please of this unwillingness; we may attribute it to pride, a name which is given indiscriminately to some of the most and to some of the least estimable feelings of which mankind are capable; we may refer it to the love of liberty and personal independence, as appeal to which was with the Stoics one of the most effective means for the inculcation of it; to the love of power or to the love of excitement, both of which do really enter into and contribute to it; but its most appropriate appellation is a sense of dignity, which all human beings possess in one form or other, and in some, though by no means in exact, proportion to their higher faculties, and which is so essential a part of the happiness of those in whom it is strong that nothing which conflicts with it could be otherwise than momentarily an object of desire to them.”

It should be noted that Mill's romantic letters to Harriet Taylor Mill had sentences of great length, as well. On woodworking and several other subjects I can expound at length and with sufficient stamina, but in matters of love, I doubt I could keep it up that long.

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