Help from flatboard workers

Derek - simple reply: thanks 

I have

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

When adjusting a drawer side that bows in or out a shim under the drawer side hung on a solid support becomes effective for concentrating planing where it is needed. But when you encounter that situation you can just substitute a piece of 3/4" anything for the jig.

Re: I have

roger lance

So, I may.....or, I may not.....since I'm in the mood, I'll make a third arm......for a long side, it may be worthwhile.....or, it may not.

Re: belt sander

onemanband

When you become "famous," you can get away with using a belt sander while youtube viewers would still admire the "master's" work! Fw also tells people to use a metal file to fit their dovetails. I think if I were famous and showed people how a nail file was essential to dovetailing, my youtube channel could get millions of likes for being frugal.

Re: Not at all my experience

TomD

You are not alone, at least with hot hide glue. With complicated assembly you almost want a dry sauna.

One thing they used to do when they worked in cold shops, and Bill will like this, because this is the old, sorta country way, is they slapped on massive amounts of glue to keep heat in the joint. This works with hot hide because you can snap off excess glue and return it to the pot, and you can wash it off, and you can sand it without clogging you sander. I am not saying this is the way to go, but it is a way.

Fun story in the beginning of this video about heating hide glue, though all the difficulty stuff has been surmounted, and a lot of people have taken to using hide glue for guitars, and it is pretty common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6iSvL2McYM

Re: Not at all my experience

Charlie

Thanks!

Re: Not at all my experience

Charlie

I think it was Charles Hayward who talked about everybody lingering in the glue room because that's where the wood stoves were -- very warm, even hot at times. This would have been in British commercial shops of the 20s and 30s I guess.

Woodworking in an unheated/uninsulated garage or shed is realistically an 8 month a year proposition (at best) because of glues and finishes unless you haul all gluing and finishing operations into the house.

Re: Not at all my experience

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I have warmed the wood next to a stove for decades. I am not alone in using this strategy.

My friend Jake (1912-1995) worked in a door factory 90 years ago. In the center of the factory was a room with the heater. This is where they did all the gluing. Jake said it was so hot in there that they worked in T shirts in the winter.

Andre Roubo (1769) wrote that there was a very tight room in a factory that had a fireplace and a bench. All the gluing was done in this room. The guys also ate their dinners in this room.

I don't think they "slapped on massive amounts of glue to keep heat in the joint".

Followers, keep in mind....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

...that this warming being talked about applies to "hot hide glue". The curing chemistry of liquid hide glue, and the aliphatic resin glues, are entirely different and affected by temperature entirely different.

For liquid hide and aliphatic resin glue cooler temperature will lengthen both the open and closed working time. However, there is a minimum temperature below which the glue will fail to bond.

Re: Followers, keep in mind....

Charlie

Patrick Edwards, on the Old Brown Glue website, recommends that OBG be gently warmed to between 140 and 160 degrees. No microwave. Not heated beyond 180*F.

https://www.oldbrownglue.com/index.php/faq-and-info

The same applies to Franklin's product.

Not applying said glue (any glue you'd likely use to make furniture) to stone cold wood is just a matter of common sense.

Re: Followers, keep in mind....

Charlie

If you warm it, it becomes less viscous and spreads easier. It may also result in using less glue, which might reduce your open time and cure time by a tiny amount (since it cures by loss of moisture) but the time you make up by being able to spread it faster when it's warm, on warm wood easily offsets this IMO.

If LHG doesn't give one a long enough open time, then the gluing sequence would need to be looked at, joint fit, etc. In other words something else is the problem, not the open time of the glue.

Re: Not at all my experience

Charlie

Bench furnituremaking has always, and will always, require a warm shop. No mystery there.

Anecdotes however are interesting to see where the "old hands" concentrated the heat. Not surprisingly it was where glues and finishes were used. Same thing today. Some people even drape off sections of a car garage and heat it for the same purposes.

Nothing new under the sun.

Reply

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have no experience with Old Brown Glue. It is an inferior product so I have no interest in using it. I don't know why anyone uses it. If it needs to be warmed to 140 degrees that is further reason to avoid using it.

It is not at all clear why it needs to be warmed to this high temperature, nor why it will have any effect given that a thin layer will assume the wood temperature instantly.

Focusing only on Titebond Regular and Franklin liquid hide, I use them frequently down to 60 degrees in the winter without any evidence that temperature has any effect I can determine other than slowing tack and cure time, which is usually a good thing except for edge joints.

I store the Liquid hide in the frig to prolong shelf life which seems to be at least several years. I have scooped some from the frig and spread it, but I agree is spreads easier at shop temperature. Franklin tech literature says to use above 50 F.

The above information is based on experienced gained building stuff on a regular basis.

Hide Glue

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I was taught to use hide glue in 1966. I can't imagine an experienced worker wanting to use the Franklin stuff. I imagine it was designed specifically for people without much training or experience.

Re: Reply

Charlie

Warm wood, warm glue -- all iterations of hide glue and PVA. It spreads better. Snug joints go together better. Nothing not to like about that scenario.

According to OBG's website, Fine Woodworking tested its strength against regular hot hide glue (I haven't read the article, so I don't know what gram strength) and it was just as strong if not a little stronger.

I'll see if I can find the article.

Never had a problem with Franklin. Hide glues are all supposed to fail and allow a repair down the road that doesn't involve scraping off the old glue. The entire point is its 'inferiority.' I'm counting on it to be inferior. I need it to be inferior. No furniture lasts forever except for pieces plucked out and put into a museum, or treated in the home as if they were in a museum.

Lousy two cents...

Re: Reply

Charlie

I recall reading somewhere that less than 1% of the furniture made in the 18th century has survived until today (from all causes) and half of that that did survive has required some kind of repair/conservation/placement in a museum.

You're wasting your time looking for a permanent glue. Use something that makes it easy on guy coming behind you.

Re: Reply

Charlie

Liquid Hide Glue (OBG in this case) slightly stronger than hot hide glue though gram strength of latter not mentioned.

Test were done in the Materials Science Department at Case Western Reserve University. There's also a teaser video on FW's website.

PDF available to FW members:

https://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/9024/011192036.pdf

Please explain your reasoning

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I can't imagine an experienced worker wanting to use the Franklin stuff. I imagine it was designed specifically for people without much training or experience.

I have used liquid hide for much of the furniture you see posted in the WoodCentral Gallery. I use it for slide together joints where lubrication and a long working time is critical. I have assembled complex case pieces with it doing several dozen joints at one time. Its properties became useful even in the recent set of small tables I built that involved assembling 16 M&T and dovetail joints at one time, or the case piece that involved assembling 56 dovetails at one time.

Properties Franklin Liquid Hide glue I find useful based on my considerable experience building furniture with it-

Trivial learning curve to use it

Cheap and available anywhere woodworking stuff is sold.

long shelf life, years

as strong as any of the wood glues which are stronger than typical wood

Ready to use at a moments notice, no prep time

Long open and closed joint working time

Lubricates slide together joints

Can be used down to 50 degrees F

Compared to these compelling properties, what properties of hot hide do you find superior to liquid hide for the assembly of typical furniture?

Re: Hide Glue

onemanband

Interestingly enough that one fellow (he published a free handtool magazine for a couple of years before stopping it) recently decided to stop using hide glue and switch to the liquid hide glue. He showered his praises on the "new" glue.

Hide Glue

Warren in Lancaster, PA

One of the main advantages of hide glue is the faster assembly time. The glue has a better viscosity so it brushes on more easily and faster. Hide glue has much better tack so pieces once assembled stay together. Sub assemblies are more rigid faster so there is a lot less need for clamping. A rigid assembly is a lot easier to work with when gluing additional pieces than something that has to be clamped to keep it rigid.

Any clamps used can be removed much more quickly and the glued pieces can often be worked within an hour. Sometimes in only 20 minutes. Excess glue gels quickly and is easily removed.

Liquid hide will give you more open time, but it actually creates the need for more open time because of all the clumsiness it creates. It also has a problem of absorbing moisture at high humidity.

Introduced by Franklin in 1935

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If not for the professional shop, what market would this stuff have been developed for in 1935? It is available in 5 gallon cans, not the typical hobby size.

Quick tack

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If we want quick tack we use Titebond Yellow glue. If the shop is warm and the wood is dry we can remove clamps in 30 minutes. Tack to where parts won't move readily is seconds.

It makes rub joints every bit as fast and well as hot hide. I know the rub joint claim to be fact because the Headly shop does it, having abandoned the inconvenience and lack of advantage of hot hide decades ago.

Diagonals on my case pieces measure the same typically to within 1 mm. I attribute the ability to get case pieces this square to the fact that I glue all the joints at one time. Liquid hide enables a complex case piece to be glued at one time.

Why is it inferior?

Steve D, in CT

You say you have no experience with OBG but also say it's inferior. What makes it inferior?

I have used it with and without warming. It's very thin when warmed but not required in my experience. When I have warmed it it was by running tap water into a container with the glue in it. No thermometers or care required.

The shelf life seems better than Franklin's but to each their own.

Re: Why is it inferior? OBG?

onemanband

No one I know who uses OBG says it's inferior. The furniture restorers I found on youtube use it too such as Thomas Johnson (he used to use hide glue but has been using OBG since the hide glue pot broke down).

To prolong its shelf life, put in in the fridge (not freezer). Three years old it was still good for a bottle I last used.