CPM 3V vs. CPM M4 ?

Re: You bet.

TomD

Maybe it is in how you use your tools. I'm careful to use them to best advantage, and I get far better edge holding, and kinda look down on users who are abusers. But if someone would invent an edge that could not be degraded, I would be able to use chisels differently and get more out of them. It would take some relearning. For now I just used them for cutting, unless I have a real reason to depart from that and am willing to pay the price for it.

You mention that 3v has been proven in hand tool use. Exactly by how many, and anyone we have actually heard of? Who is actually making a consistent product available. And is anyone buying them. I'm just curious if this claim is meaningful, even if it is "true" as far as the product's benefit is concerned. I don't really care about star woodworker per se. But it is of interest where a product fits in. For instance a tough edge might win converts among the lunch bucket crowd, or maybe they will prefer replacement blades. Who exactly is using this stuff, and what difference is it actually making in global productivity figures, or some reasonable measure.

There is the hobby of having the best tools, and there is the business of selling tools along whatever gullibility lines may currently be fashionable. But at the end of the day, is this stuff actually making a difference. I mean I think one could argue that in various parts of the real world Japanese saw teeth, and even saws, have had an actual impact. I think to a lessor extent Japanese waterstones have had an impact (funny, that's two for the most esoteric end of the tool market). I would argue something like low angle planes have probably had zero impact. They seem to sell, and people play with them (I own a few), but I doubt there is any increase in capability attributable to them. Not one more birdhouse got made globally kind of thing. They are faster to cycle, so maybe a birdhouse or two...

Re: realize significant gains???

TomD

"I'm not probably ever going to be in the market for any of this stuff, I have what I need, but if it were 5 years from now and I were getting started, I would probably get or make chisels in 3V."

This is kinda the money question isn't it. I have a fair bit of dough to invest in my 401K Canadian version, after cashing out some oil stocks. Is that something I would actually lay a bet on? Well obviously not, but even as a mental exercise, I would be really worried. If I was LV, and reading the tea leaves however they do, maybe I would see a wave coming for this stuff and go all in. I do note that after introducing diamonds a year or so back, they this year poured a ton of dough in on "new" waterstones.

Would you bet real money on the idea that this stuff will be more than say 10% of the relevant tool market in 5 years? I don't think I would be comfortable, but I do see it as possible. But if I look back over 5 year increments, at every marker there ought to have been, on a similar basis, a huge rush to the already existing superior steels, and the already existing superior and cheap sharpening tech. It, never happened.

Re: "Sherman, set the Way Back machine for... "

David Weaver

Blue steel is much closer to carbon steel (it fails like carbon steel - uniform wear). What gives it durability is more hardness than anything else, i would think. The same thing at 58 hardness wouldn't last that well.

Special cutting steel is maybe getting closer to a high speed steel, but still not there.

Togo inukubi is sometimes called a high speed steel, but my experience with it is that it's closer to a carbon steel in use. I am not about to experiment with finding its temperature resistance. I don't find it similar to HSS to sharpen though.

I don't know about the super blue and the other HSS that japanese maker's use, I've only had special cutting, white #1, #2 and inukubi.

No need for slinging any names or perceptions around at all with old or new steels.

I personally just don't see a reason to not go with something that stays sharp as long as HSS but has carbides no bigger than the particle size, which may be only several microns. It'll wear like HSS but fail like carbon steel - that's an awfully good combination.

Re: realize significant gains???

TomD

"But, anyway, what is the reason for the sudden disconnect? Certainly there can't be any reason to push $100 imai chisels over iyorois or whatever the $50 cheap flavor of the day chisel is if 3V is suddenly excess because of one peter follansbee demo."

Speaking of disconnects, when did it become crazy to buy something because it was nicer. Basically any well made Japanese chisel sells for about a 1/5 of what it would if it was made by an American knife maker, with zero tradition, etc... These chisels are just nicer, and they probably hold an edge better also, and in some case are easier to sharpen to boot, though I get your argument specific disconnect on that. My Tasai chisels are probably the nicest tools I own, and they are cheap, a full set costs the same as a Don Fogg knife that (artfully) apes the Japanese tradition he isn't actually part of.

Re: The diamond and HSS thing...

David Weaver

By the way, I have heard from John Kleso that machinists considered sharpening HSS with diamonds to be a waste of money.

I don't think machinists not wanting to use diamonds has anything to do with them not being appropriate.

They do fracture, and fairly easily, I think. Not easily like silicon carbide maybe, but easily enough that after some strenuous use, the "smarts" come off of an electroplated hone.

Your second issue is one i've also expereienced, where the plating seems to let go.

But, anyway, the cost issues machinsts have with diamonds shouldn't affect a hand tool user who would use $10 of diamonds a year, and who is still going to do the grinding with an aluminum oxide wheel or belt.

And, as far as luddites go - anyone who isn't on this forum considers all of us luddites, not just the ones who refuse to use something that doesn't sharpen well on oil stones.

Since when has mass acceptance and ...

Bob Hackett

Marketability become the benchmark for efficiency?

You`re a boat guy,are you building boats in a vacuum? Most of the very efficient tools I`ve seen in boatyards are tools that were/are craftsman made. Some of those custom made tools have ever impressed key people enough to make their way into limited production.I say limited because they are mainly being used in boatyards and even if you combined all the purchases of all the wooden boat builders in the nation it would still only comprise a small percentage of total WWing sales. By your way of measuring that makes a whole lot of very efficient tooling being used by boatyards not commercially viable and their contributions to efficient work insignificant.

Taking your line of thinking a bit further and applying it to adhesives,West System an un-needed extravagance when building a boat as long as you use the waterproof Titebond. Sales and wide spread acceptance would prove this out.

Just out of curiosity,

Bruce, a MN Galoot

do machinists sharpen any tool to the degree that most of us on the board sharpen tools? I have a machinist buddy, a very skilled one, who has a very fine wheel on a grinder, does his business and lets it go at that.

Why diamond wheels aren't used to grind steel

Steve Elliott

I think I raised this before, but in the machinist world you are not supposed to sharpen HSS on diamond wheels it is frowned upon. They are reserved for Carbide. I am well aware the turners are doing just that. Do you know where this concern comes from?

The carbon that makes up the diamond lattice has an affinity for iron and at the high temperatures of grinding, the diamond dissolves and its carbon enters the steel. For grinding hardened steel, cubic boron nitride (CBN) is recommended. It's almost as hard as diamond and holds up to high temperatures.

For hand lapping or honing the temperature never rises to the point where the diamond dissolves.

Where on earth? What on earth? Huh? Say whuh?

David Barnett

"You mention that 3v has been proven in hand tool use. Exactly by how many, and anyone we have actually heard of? Who is actually making a consistent product available. And is anyone buying them. I'm just curious if this claim is meaningful, even if it is "true" as far as the product's benefit is concerned."

...did I ever say that? You know, if you can't keep the discussion straight -- I know, I know, it's not always easy -- things will get so confusing and out of hand that it won't be worth continuing.

If fact, if you read my words from my very first post in this thread, you'd find I said:

"Who exactly is promoting these steels in this way -- for this reason? I haven't seen it. Not once. Never. Can you give an example? As far as I know, hand tools made from these steels aren't widely available -- are not easily-acquired products. This just seems inconceivable to me. Just... odd."

This, in fact, should sound somewhat familiar, and therefore kind of funny when you consider I sort of said it first.

Don't get me wrong, you started this thread so I want you to enjoy it, but really, guy, we all need to try to hold onto enough reality to see it through to the end.

Back to you, again:

"Who exactly is using this stuff, and what difference is it actually making in global productivity figures, or some reasonable measure."

Well, okay. But "global productivity figures". Wow. Okay, I think I'm going to give up now. Wow.

Can't tell the players without a scorecard. What the hell number am I anyway? I've lost track. Gotta-getta-grip.

Diamond wheels? Who brought up diamond wheels?

David Barnett

Thank you ever so much, Steve, for this brief return to clarity, this small oasis of coherence. I can't recall anyone advocating for diamond wheels on bench grinders to sharpen steel woodworking tools. That'd be a straw man argument as far as anything I've ever suggested.

Okay, I've almost caught my breath. Now I'll get back to rereading the rest of these posts that erupted during my nap.

It's funny. It's confusing. "WC -- where sanity goes to die."

(Message Deleted by Poster)

David Barnett

So...

Bob Hackett

What do you think about home schooling in relation to the politics of religious extremists in the world today?

Try to stay on track now everyone. We`ll get into abortion, the right to bear arms and the death penalty in other posts.

Re: You bet.

David Weaver

Which users on here are abusers?

I guess i'm waiting for a really big whopper now. Some tie-in that people who don't use oilstones and plain carbon steel are automatically abusers.

Humor us. If using woods that are hard on edges is "abusing tools", i'm really at a loss for words. I mean really, really at a loss.

I suppose the bronze age craftsmen would have leverage to look down on you because you probably wouldn't be able to "protect the edge" of their tools.

Just goofy.

Your moderator, reading this subthread... 

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

Re: Sticks and stones... sounds like woodworking

TomD

Can't blame me I didn't start the thread that is, just the thread that was. Anyway, life is short, argument is long.

Technically, I am not the terrorists. In an article in Harper's Magazine by Alberto Moravia points out that Terrorism, is an idiosyncrasy of the modern era and of modern thought and fashion. It is the scimitar of avant-garde culture. Terrorism can only thrive where there is constant revolutionary agitation and movement, where there is an obsession with history, and there is an actual set of cultural values adulating change. The forward-thinking craftspersons argument.

Re: The diamond and HSS thing...

TomD

"But, anyway, the cost issues machinsts have with diamonds shouldn't affect a hand tool user who would use $10 of diamonds a year, and who is still going to do the grinding with an aluminum oxide wheel or belt."

Cool. Got nothing to do with hand tools. I just have some nice diamond wheel stuff, and I am saving it for carbide, but if it was some kind of myth there would be circumstances where I would use it on other stuff. Reminds me of the suggestion that one should never use files on different metals. I do it all the time. I am not saying that I escape whatever consequences, I just don't want to have multiple identical files.

Well, I was thinking about a diamond wheel. 

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

(Message Deleted by Poster)

David Barnett

Re: The diamond and HSS thing...

Bruce, a MN Galoot

And here I've been paranoid (induced by my machinist buddy) about keeping files separate for brass and iron. NO more...

Re: Since when has mass acceptance and ...

TomD

I agree with that sorta. I was questioning the idea that this was a proven technology in the hands of. One can make that claim on the basis of one person. But i live up here in Canada, 3v could be in every Lowes, and I wouldn't hear about it possibly for 20 years. I was checking whether this is a for real quantity in the woodworking world, or a hobby for a few guys. I mean I have been hearing about it for a few years, and I am unaware of any place where I can buy these chisels. And the metal is out there, and for people who need outside heat treaters anyway, it could easily be there. People are saying in 10 years it will be the only thing.

Re: You bet.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

As far as waterstones and Japanese saws, I'd say that everything I've made for the last 11 years wouldn't have been made without them. If I had to use western saws, they would have been powered saws; and if I had to use Arkansas stones, I'd have sent the tools out or done without, thus making nada.

Pam

Re: diamond wheels - that's what I was after

TomD

Thanks. That's elegant! How hot we talking. If I am grinding at a nice slow speed would this still be a condition at the point. Anyway, I think I will save my wheels for carbide.

It's not so much a file protection thing  as a... *LINK*

David Barnett

...workpiece protection thing. At least where cross-contamination of metals is concerned. An extreme case is not owning separate sets of files for pewter if you also work silver and gold.

Less extreme, but also bad is that contaminating one metal with another can significantly change the properties of that metal, something known as microalloying. While microalloys are used all the time, well-known among artisan jewelry fabricators and goldsmiths, unintentional microalloying can really cause problems, and it takes far less contaminant than you might expect to alter the crystallization characteristics and working properties of an alloy.

A pinch of this or that and you can take the softest, butteriest 24k gold and make it everyday wearable, all-the-while retaining that incomparable high-carat yellow look -- like Viagra for pure gold.

Just thought I'd throw this out there, you know -- run it up the flagpole to see if the cat laps it up.


24K Microalloyed PureGold

Re: Just out of curiosity,

TomD

Maybe nobody sharpens like we do, but typically back when people used to use HSS bits with their lathes, and some still do, as well as many hobbyists. Back then, it was common place to grind on a wheel, and then go straight to a black arkansas for a polished finish. In some respects sharpening lathe tools is easier, but there are also a lot of shapes, dozens or hundreds, some basic principles, and a lot of different materials. As with wood turning, there are situations where you can go straight from the grinder to the work, possibly most of them. There are situations where you will get better results or longer term performance with a hone. There are situations where you can vary the geometry to get greater cutting power skip the hone, and loose durability. These are decision I make on the fly, and every now and again I make a really bad choice and the tool won't hardly cut at all.

With modern tooling there are a lot of carbide bits that have very sophisticated shapes, these can do a lot of very interesting things, like fragment the chip. Some of this newer tooling is spectacularly dull. This requires tougher machines and a lot of messy coolant, from the home shop perspective. But it works for industry.

I don't personally use a lot of carbide tooling, but I would probably hone some of the more conventional stuff with diamond paste now that I have it.

Steve knows stuff.

David Barnett

By the way, Tom, 3M makes CBN belts, too, in Trizact configuration even. Really useful. Their CBN flex belts are incredibly cool, too, for slack work. I heart superabrasives.