CPM 3V vs. CPM M4 ?

The good stuff

Warren in Lancaster, PA

This discussion reminds me of one I had with a young fellow about thirty years ago. He told me that computers were soon going to be so good at imitating violins that we would no longer need any violins or any players. I asked him if he thought manufacturers would get so good at making Bacos that no one would miss real bacon. Thirty years later people are still raising hogs and making fine violins. And kids are still practicing violin all day long.

Concerning chisels, the woodworkers I know appreciate the good stuff, still buy the steel designed to get a very fine edge rather easily.

Re: The good stuff

David Barnett

I'm guessing the Kurtzweil doesn't have a del Ges� in it any more than Bac-Os have bacon, much less meat of any kind. Last I looked, though, all tool steel still had iron and carbon. The "good stuff"? It's all good when used correctly. Or when you sharpen with diamond.

Heat treating -- the simple and not so simple

David Barnett

You'll be shaping most steels in their annealed (softened) state, Pam, then raising their temperature to change its crystalline structure to produce the carbides, which is what gives it its hardness. Each steel has different hardening temperatures and hardening requirements, and 3V has a more demanding regimen than W1 or O1.

W1 and O1 have a hardening range from 1450� to 1600� F. At the proper hardening temperature, the steel will no longer be magnetic, a common test. W1 and O1 are somewhat forgiving as to hardening range and how long to soak at this range, which makes it a natural choice for the home craftsperson who wishes to make their own steel tools.

One thing to keep in mind, simple tool geometries and shapes commensuately simplify bringing the tool to an even hardening heat and quenching it with minimal deformation. Thin tools can warp. for example, and tools with cominations of thicknesses and shapes can do surprising and challenging things during quench. But if you keep it simple, all you'll really need is a torch, forge, or furnace to bring it to hardening heat and you're good to go.

Other tool steels, however, are far less casually handled. Compare the ease of heat treating O1, which I can do sitting at my jeweler's bench to reshape and reharden tools several times in a working session, almost without having to think about it*, to the following for CPM 3V:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm3vt.html

Big difference. First, you preheat, then harden (austenitize) with around a half-hour hold, then quench with air, salt, or intermittant oil, followed again by air. You temper three times (at least) for two hours a time (at least) and at much higher temperatures than the ubiquitous toaster oven that's a favorite for many O1 tool makers. And believe me, what I've summarized is grossly oversimplified.

I've done it, and while my little electric furnace (not even long enough for some chisels) has a few hundred degrees overhead above 3V's range, it's a pain compared with other tool steels available to me. I do like it's toughness for punches and point tools, though -- better than M4 for some uses -- so it can be worth the effort, especially if you sculpt certain stones.

So the easy way is to send it out. Fortunately, for you, there are numerous heat treaters in your area, both high-tech and low, and it will likely be worth developing a good relationship with one or more. The right one can be very knowledgeable and helpful when they're sympathetic to small tool makers and you can learn a bunch -- these steels, while complex to treat, are highly versatile, so it's good to experiment to find what optimizes your tool for its particular use. This is where a good heat treater can make a positive difference. Also, it's nice when you make a few tools and wait until they call you so you can piggyback your stuff on a larger commercial order, which can make it a lot cheaper than you might expect. Now see? Aren't you glad you live in Texas?

_________________________________________________

*Recently, I was doing some wire and metal strip inlay into an ivory, ebony and steel object, with varying line widths; swells, curls, serifs and squiggles. If I'd had to rely on ready-made commercial tools and gravers, it simply wouldn't have been doable. At least I wouldn't have done it.

Making and remaking your own tools is downright easy and kind of fun. I'd torch it to forging heat (I use both an oxy/propane Smith Little Torch and a very small and cheap Bernzomatic air/propane torch with a hose to one of those disposable propane tanks), thicken, thin, curve and contour the working end of my tool, cool it, then file, grind (with a Foredom flexshaft), bring it to hardening heat, quench, temper (when needed), sharpen if it's supposed to cut, texture or polish if it's supposed to punch, then do whatever I'd retasked it to do. BTW, this is how engravers, goldsmiths, and other artisans routinely used to do things. It's one of the first things you learned.

Re: The good stuff

David Weaver

David pretty much said my bit - the good stuff is all of it when you have something that sharpens all of it.

I could say something about how easy it is to get a good edge on the very old tanged parers that I have, but I don't do it that often, because it's not really much harder to get the good edge on japanese chisels - actually their edge is probably a bit finer, and they hold it much longer.

I wonder what the hard core bronze users thought when the iron age came along.

Gotta agree Warren

Bob Hackett

Some of my favorite chisels have names like Swan,Whitherby and other lesser known names like Underhill and James Cam (two of my favorites) on them. I pick these types of tools up whenever I can and am wicked picky about who I allow to use them.

I have enough of these tools to supply others and regularly do just that,my two brothers will attest to that. Yet I still pay what others see as crazy amounts of cash for them. I do not buy them because they are the absolute best,bar none for all tasks cross the board.I buy them for their connection to the past and to see the look on someone`s face when they take one of those chisels and pare just exactly the amount they had intended off a piece of wood.The balance,ergonomics and performance of these tools is just amazing and then add to that the fact they were produced over 100 years ago in some cases.

Magic,pure magic! I buy them so my Grandkids will get to experience them if they care to.

Now when it comes to work I break out the tough,no-name tools I made myself to get the work done without worrying about any embedded hardware,stones or sand (I like working with stump wood,call me crazy) or how tough or abrasive the wood may be.

Doesn`t stop me for a minute from from grabbing one of my fine old laminated chisels to make the last few cuts and feel that connection to the past though.

Options,it`s all about options, and maybe saving more of that fine old steel from floating away on the stones.Less sharpening of steel tools they no longer produce means I (and hopefully others) will get to enjoy those tools for far longer.

Conservation is yet another excellent reason to use the "new steels" rather than sacrifice the old to do the grunt work.

Re: realize significant gains???

wilbur

"Most of us aren't doing work like Peter does. He does most of his roughing with green wood, and finishes planing with wood that he calls dry, but is likely not nearly as dry and harsh as kiln dried white oak would be. Thomas MacDonald had a much different take on white oak with standard carving tools - something along the lines of "it's murder on the edges, you'll be doing a lot of sharpening". I'd imagine his stock is kiln dried."

Having seen the oak Peter Follansbee uses for carving in person, this is much more a matter of degree than a quantum leap in difference. Regardless of the air vs. kiln dried oak issue, he's still doing a lot of carving in oak, and needs chisels that hold their edge, and is satisfied with the ones that he has in terms of edge retention. It's not like the difference between air dried and kiln dried oak in this context is like the difference between oak and balsa wood. Those chisels still need a decent degree of sharpness, and arguably need to maintain their sharpness for longer than your average bench chisel.

I like bacon.  :@)

wilbur

Re: realize significant gains???

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I have to agree with you, Wilbur. Although I have sometimes carved white oak that is so wet that water comes out when the gouge goes in, I have done lots of white oak carving with kiln dried stuff. Sometimes full time for months. And I use Henry Taylor carving tools, not known for high chrome content, and have good edge retention. The main thing is not to abuse the tools.

Re: realize significant gains???

David Weaver

I just don't remotely understand the ardent recommendation of imai chisels at a much higher price than a lot of other chisels tied in with this sudden reversal that not only do carving tools need to hold their edge even better, but that tools that have less edge strength than mediocre japanese tools are just fine.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Carving tools and chisels definitely not the same. I would prefer "old steel" carving tools, but I don't do a lot of carving. Like warren says, I tend to mind the edge when I do have to do it.

A chisel that can be sharpened in 30 seconds on diamonds (or a plane iron, same - except maybe a minute or two if there is some camber) is not the same as a carving tool.

When 3v is the standard steel used for high quality chisels in 10 years, I suppose there will still be people hacking away at this, but it makes no sense given a lot of the prior discussion - as i said - about how people should not buy low-level japanese chisels, but instead spring for the blacksmiths that do more work on the metal at the forge.

I still choose the chisel that holds the edge the longest and works at a nice angle if I go at it again. I won't go at it again, unless my stuff burns, but were I to do it, that's what I'd do. I'm open to new smoothing irons, though, always. I have plenty of mediocre irons that I'd love to replace with an iron that is both long wearing and chipout resistant (chipout really irritates me in planes, either in old brittle irons or new steels with large carbides).

My chisels are O1, old cast steel chisels and white #2 (presumably all of them are white #2, and not #1). I think that covers all of them, except the D2 mortise chisels - I much appreciate those. several swipes on a polish stone after each mortise and there is no need to break down and hone the chisel for an entire project, it's just as easy as stropping.

But, anyway, what is the reason for the sudden disconnect? Certainly there can't be any reason to push $100 imai chisels over iyorois or whatever the $50 cheap flavor of the day chisel is if 3V is suddenly excess because of one peter follansbee demo.

Re: realize significant gains???

TomD

"When 3v is the standard steel used for high quality chisels in 10 years, I suppose there will still be people hacking away at this, but it makes no sense given a lot of the prior discussion"

That is what we are going to have to see about. I've been at this seriously for 30 years plus, and it has always been the case that there were better steels than O1, or the cheap stuff used in Blue Chip. And it has always been the case that there were better HT regiments for the steels in use. Some of this really better stuff has been very cheap. I even see that today. So the question is whether the broader market will accept these tools now. It is perfectly possible that just as we have say C&W rather than 200 year old junk, or LN rather than Stanley or Record, the market will drive super steels. But I bet there are also some exasperated makers and sellers out there who have invested in marketing O1 as an upgrade, then A2, and every year there is a new member of the alphabet soup. So yes, possible, but not necessarily going to happen. this isn't the LP, cassette, 8-track, CD, MP3 business. You can't stop the guys using their old stuff by making it obsolete other than in performance terms. The Betamax vs VHS argument isn't so strong.

And beyond that, there is the fact that to really make it work, according to the collected diamond wisdom, we would have to sink the stones business, the bench top sharpener business, and we would have to be sure that when the CPM xx is offered it comes with the other features people want so that the chisels don't die in the marketplace for some other reason. Personally I only use 4 types of chisel: Japanese, Cast ye-oldes, Barr socket (LN might be better, not sure), and ones I make myself that are as good as a lot of stuff that costs 80 bucks a chisel but that I would only use since I get it pretty close to free. So I think it is unlikely I would buy a CPM xx chisel because they are unlikely to be offered in a form I like. And I think that will be true is spades for others.

Re: Heat treating -- the simple and not so simple

TomD

On O1. What he said. However, if you want to get the max out of it, the trans temp is actually above the demag heat range, and it needs a soak. It also seems to benefit from multiple tempering cycles. There are a lot of little tricks. Huge amount of info on the knife forums for free.

Re: realize significant gains???

wilbur

"I just don't remotely understand the ardent recommendation of imai chisels at a much higher price than a lot of other chisels tied in with this sudden reversal that not only do carving tools need to hold their edge even better, but that tools that have less edge strength than mediocre japanese tools are just fine."

Hi David,

I have to admit, I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from with this line of thought, but I'll do my best. Please forgive me if I'm misreading your last post.

First, Imai bench chisels in the usual sizes are in the $63-72 range. You don't need to spend $100 to get an Imai chisel.

Second, I fully understand that Imai chisels these days are not the bargain that they used to be, thanks to the tanking dollar/yen exchange rate.

Third, the main reason I like Imai chisels is that I have personal experience with them, and I think they work great, not because I did a comprehensive head-to-head comparison test with many other brands of chisels.

Specifically, my thought process during the time that I was chisel shopping went something like this. My main point of comparison back then was not so much other Japanese chisels, but Lie-Nielsen chisels. At the time, the Imais were much more price competitive, and were actually a little bit cheaper than Lie-Nielsens. They aren't any more, again thanks to the tanking dollar/yen exchange rate. But at the time they seemed to be a reasonable comparison to the Lie-Nielsen offerings.

The reasons I liked the Imai chisels out of the other Japanese chisel options at the time were:

-- They were the cheapest chisels that had no negative reviews.

-- I knew Imai made a high end chisel line, so I figured that he knew what he was doing in terms of blacksmithing and chisel manufacturing.

-- I liked the people that were selling Imai chisels (Misugi Designs and Hida Tool).

-- He made a complete line of chisels: bench chisels, paring chisels, mortise chisels, and others.

After having used them for a little over 3 years now, I can say that the main thing I like the best about the Imai chisels is ease of sharpening. They certainly get ridiculously sharp. They certainly hold an edge for a long time. But it's the ability to get back to a sharp edge quickly that appeals to me the most these days.

Three years ago, I might have been more focused on edge retention. Looking back over time, that has become less of a priority. That may be why I think that the use of newer alloys and CPM steels in chisels and plane irons might be solving a problem that doesn't exist for me. I'm not sure if there is another advantage to CPM steels that I am missing, but the main advantage that people are talking about is edge retention. Again, if I did a lot of work in jarrah or tropical species, I might think differently. But I don't, so the edge retention advantage doesn't mean as much to me. Then again, your average beginning woodworker won't be loading up on rosewoods, either.

I believe that it is true that if you sharpen with diamonds, ease of sharpening becomes less of an issue with the newer alloys. I just happen to hate sharpening with diamonds. There's something about the feel of them that gives me that nails-on-a-blackboard sensation. Give me waterstones any day.

So if you couple the relative lack of advantage that CPM chisels would give me with the requirement to use a sharpening system that I don't like, and it's pretty easy to see why I'm not super excited about the idea of CPM chisels. I don't think this is inconsistent with why I like my Imai chisels.

One other thing I noticed today. Christopher Schwarz wrote a glowing review of the Veritas replacement blades for Stanley planes. He reviewed the blades that he bought and owns and uses at home. He had the choice between A-2 and O-1, and went with O-1. He summarizes his experience with them like this: "I�m a big fan of Veritas�s O-1 blades. They polish up nice and quick and hold an edge for a good long time."

Tom's right, Pam -- but wait! There's more! *LINK*

David Barnett

There are a few things you can do to optimize O1, but I'll admit to rarely doing them, especially on small tools that are apt to get modified after only a few specialized uses as I've previously described. Triple annealing is never a bad thing, nor is holding above the crit temp (soaking at the trans temp maximizes those little carbides I mentioned). Some even recommend a preheat, or what I think of as a slow heat to bring flatter, thinner workpieces or tools with more complicated sections that vary from thick to thin and so on, evenly to hardening heat.

As I'll often work O1 at forging heat, then ramp it up to above crit heat, I don't take a lot of extra steps, even though they're demonstrably better for some tools (many of my O1 tools are repousse punches, though, and wouldn't reap the benefits of the more enhanced heat treat for edge tools). At any rate, it's hard to screw up simpler tool designs with consistent cross-sectional densities, so I opt for quick and dirty in most things O1. For the most part, I prefer to keep it simple, keep it fast, and keep it fun.

I know you like boxwood (as do I). Should you ever try your hand at box netsuke (or even fossil ivory netsuke), you can make the coolest little carving tools from not very much O1 scrap. Little curved knives, scorpy-looking things, wonderful line incisors -- all manner of edgy, scrapy, pointy pokey things.

And you can heat treat with an alcohol lamp, one of those handy little handheld butane torches folks light cigars with (great for individual cr�me br�l�e ramekins, too), or small bunsen burner hooked up to a disposable propane tank. If you're careful not to outright burn the steel, you can rework it almost any number of times until you get it just so. This is really fun stuff.


Peter Berglund will tell you everything

Re: BTW #2

Larry Williams

"Larry, if you`ll re-read my post as I was the one who brought up the Master Bladesmith`s test you`ll see that the comparison was between knives and chisels and not plane irons. "

Can I point you to the last paragraph of David's post? I was responding to his post and that last paragraph.



"Many times I feel like civility is tossed to the side too quickly when speaking with you and a select few here."

Bob, I take that seriously, it reflects on both my business and my business partner who also follows this forum. I've gone back and reviewed the recent exchanges between us where I was less than civil. I did find some posts containing baiting sarcasm and things that could be construed as bordering on personal attacks. None of it came from me and only once did I comment on it. Other than that, I didn't even respond. I have no control over how you react when you disagree with someone but I'm not pleased with your implication here.

A model for decision-making

David Barnett

"That may be why I think that the use of newer alloys and CPM steels in chisels and plane irons might be solving a problem that doesn't exist for me."

I agree with you, Wilbur. There are no appreciable advantages for me, either, as I favor polite domestic hardwoods with quiet figure if any figure at all. I do like stripy quartersawn walnut, though, but none of these woods particularly challenge my chisels and plane blades. If I did need or want a tougher alternative, though, it's nice to know it's out there.

Both you and Joel make such good sense about choosing tools, it's a model for how to think about it. And both of you are refreshingly tolerant of other's perceived needs and decisions.

"I'm not sure if there is another advantage to CPM steels that I am missing, but the main advantage that people are talking about is edge retention."

None that I can think of, Wilbur. It's funny, no matter how much I say I like O1, it seems that if I also appreciate the newer powder tool steels, it somehow negates my day-to-day reliance on the older ones. It's all about options and being able to choose and explore other tools and techniques. That's all.

Let he who is without sin...

David Barnett

Larry, if you go back in your own recent posts, you'll find this response, not to Bob but to David Weaver.

http://tinyurl.com/amazingLarryWIlliams

I read it, from subject to final line as sarcastic in overall tone, and, for that matter, that final line derogates another thread contributor -- at least that's how I read it. If I'm wrong in this perception I sincerely apologize, but I really don't think I'm too far off the mark. Also consider that the way I read your response to David Weaver, and perhaps the way Bob Hackett read it -- he can speak for himself, of course -- may have fostered subsequent sarcasms, those which Bill Houghton addressed before I pointed out how they may have been provoked.

These passionate discussions should remain polite in tone, and whenever possible, be tempered with humor and wit and a good dose of tolerance. It's this latter condition that I believe Bob Hackett, I, and perhaps others may perceive as somewhat lacking.

As I've said before, I've sometimes reacted less politely than I should've, and again, for that I apologize.

Yes, we can and do have strong opinions and differing backgrounds on hand tool matters. No, we will all make mistakes from time to time, both in our views and understanding of things and in our expressing them. But we can all respect each other even while occasioning chiding or being sarcastic, as long as it's ultimately toward learning and sharing.

I would just ask that you take a look at you own behavior, attitudes, and way of expressing yourself, and see if we can't all work together to improve things. You are one highly-accomplished individual, reknowned tool historian and tool maker and have engendered much deserved respect for your contributions. No one wishes to see you or your business suffer. Just please consider your own part in the way people respond to you.

It's hard, yes, but we can all play in the same sandbox if we remember to play nice. Lets all start fresh and see if it can't work better. Fair enough?

Suggestions Larry?

Bob Hackett

Re: Tom's right, Pam -- but wait! There's more!

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

Thanks, guys; but I think I must have asked the question improperly again. But first let me say that for heat treating CPM, I know I'll have to send it out, it's just too much for my primitive shop. And while it may be convenient to have quality vendors in Austin for doing this, I still hate Texas.

So, let me try again. Let's say I want to make some CPM chisels.

1) First step is to shape the chisels. Do I need to apply heat to do this?

2) Then, at some point, I need to send the chisels out for heat treating.

Is there a step between 1 and 2?

Many thanks,

Pam

Re: I like bacon.  :@)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

Yep, me, too, a little. I seldom eat bacon and eggs these days, though, and you wouldn't believe the time I spend trying to keep frankenfoods out of our diet.

Pam

Re: realize significant gains???

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

Sometimes reading these threads, which are very interesting and informative, I have to wonder how people work with wood. To me it would be extremely disruptive to even think about edge retention while working, would take me right out of the creative moment, out of the rhythm that's so important. The only time I would notice is if an edge were particularly bad and required more sharpening than I'm accustomed to, than my process is prepared to accommodate.

Pam

Re: Tom's right, Pam -- but wait! There's more!

Phil Smith

"1) First step is to shape the chisels. Do I need to apply heat to do this? "

Do not heat or you are toast. In the annealed state 3V is relatively easy to file, drill, saw with hack saw or low speed metal cutting band saw, or shape with belt sander. However if you heat the material it will air harden and then you are trying to cut something that is very hard and wear resistant.

Steps to completion

Bob Hackett

I would suggest following these steps

1-Find a heat treater for the type of steel you`d like to use first and talk to him.After you talk to him you may want to select a different steel based on your discussion. Find out from him if beveled edges and sharp corners will be a problem as well as any other design considerations that may make heat treating difficult.

2- cut out your blanks while following the guidance you got during the discussion.

3-send the blanks off to be heat treated

4-once you get the hardened and tempered blanks back clean the scale off them, install handles, final grind, flatten the backs and then hone.

Re: Tom's right, Pam -- but wait! There's more!

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

Thank you, Phil, a thousand times.

Pam

Thanks, Bob, understood.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

Work hardening?

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

Are these steels sensitive enough that someone shaping them should be careful to use techniques that won't allow heat to build up? For instance, should grinding with a dry wheel include frequent breaks and dipping in water to keep residua heat from the grinding process from building up to some critical temperature?