New saw vise at TFWW *LINK*

Re: Uhmmm...No

Marv

>Todd,

Just when I think I know everything, I learn one more thing...I don't.

Marv

Re: Close up of D3 base *LINK*

Marv

>Todd,

Check out the pictures in this auction and you'll see the 3D cast into the front jaw and the tilting bench clamp.

Marv


Disston 3D saw vise

Re: close up of D2 base *LINK*

L. Hanson

>The number 2 and number 3 vises (I've seen them listed as D-3's but I've also seen them with "3D" cast into the jaw) each have tilting clamps, but the tilt is only in one direction. The #1 vise has a pivot that can be placed in any direction, it uses a sort of a ball that it clamps on to. I'm attaching a photo of all three.

Personally, for me the tilting is nice to have to mount the vise into my machinist's vise (mount the saw vise to a short piece of 2x4, and clamp that into the machinist's vise). I see no real advantage in the pivoting vise, though. I used a Wentworth for a long time with just having it attached to a board that I could clamp into a vise - but a permanent attachment is better, if you have the room.

I put a link to my thoughts on the new vise - I think it's great there's someone that is putting out a quality vise, I think it's been decades since there was anything of quality available.

Leif




Saw Vises - Old and New

Now wait a minute Marv...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I thought you LIKED magnets.

8^)

Scott, Who can't keep up with all this BS over a saw vice. Witch I see a lot of you have.

I`ll tel you what I like about this thread...

Bob Hackett

>I`m getting quite an education about saw vises.

I have both a Diston #1 and #3 and didn`t ever feel they were solid enough so I made a wood vise that was both longer in the jaws and seemed more stable.

I bought the #1(1st purchase) for $8 after turning down one for $5 that had been repaired.I went for the gizmosity factor and was disappointed.Then came the #3 and it was better but...

My brother took the #1 and promptly returned it(actually traded it back for the wood vise).

With what I know now I`ll be looking for the wide jawed Wentworth or better yet an industrial model like Lief scored.With all the old shipyards around here there`s GOT to be one hiding somewhere.

Mainely,Bob

No, I don't think that has to be the case

Alan DuBoff

>Marv,

Using magnets doesn't mean that it would magnetize the blade, you could put the magnets on the ends, in the wood. As long as the magnets pull each other, they do not have to magnetize the blade, IMO.

This is just one way to create a new clamping mechanism.

My point being that there are ways to improve the vintage clamping systems with something modern, not just taking some vintage design because it was the best that was done 150 years ago...

I've also thought about a scissor type mechanism where you could apply pressure evenly along the entire jaw, one of the problems on old vises is they get dropped and the jaws don't shut properly. Sometimes some quick file work may fix it, others are not as easy. This is the complaint that folks have against buying vintage tools, that they may require more work. Although, Raney allocated 3-4 hours for such a job, I have never spent that much time on one.

There are other ways to accomplish clamping with a rod and oblong shaped disc that can apply pressure as the rod is turned, to clamp the jaws together.

Many ways to skin this cat, I think the magnets could present a clean solution, and not magnetize the blade. My $0.02.

We can agree to disagree about it...

Alan DuBoff

>Joel,

We can agree to disagree on it then, I don't believe it has to magnetize the plate, the magnets do not have to touch the plate even. They just need to clamp the jaws.

Suffice to say, I believe there are various ways to improve a 150 year old design.

As I just mentioned to Marv, a scissor type mechanism is another way.

Anyway, best of luck with your saw vise, I hope you sell a lot of them, but more so I hope people use them rather than tossing them in the corner.

A day in the life of Disston's FTD R&D department

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>That would be the Future Tool Discussions Research and Development department. Their assignment: come up with ways to confuse and entertain hand tool users a century into the future.

Using "D3" and "3D" interchangeably was a pretty clever move: no development cost, no impact on tool usability, and absolutely NO way to say which is correct. Better, in some ways, than saw nibs, which required extra production efforts.

Their successors live on in Lee Valley's April 1st tool announcements.

Thanks Leif, very informative

Marv

>

Point of view

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>If the saw looked over its shoulder, it would look like D3 to it.

Wiley

Re: No, I don't think that has to be the case

Marv

>Even if the magnets didn't magnatize the blade, just having the magnets in proximity to the saw would be a PITA. If the magnets were strong enough to actually hold the blade in place, they would surely be strong enough to maybe even pull filings up off the floor!

My vote for magnets is a resounding NO!

As for exporing other ideas and methods for accuating a clamping mechanism, I'm all for that. I would explore methods that involved roller bearings that could be replaced if by chance they ever wore out. A roller bearing is used on my 28" Acme vise. Or something along the lines of how a Vise-Grip works. A vise-grip seems to work forever under some pretty rough useage. And the clamping pressure is adjustable too.

Regarding finding an old Wentworth with 14" jaws, well, that is a rare chance. Lots of shorter jawed Wentworth,s but not with 14". I have only seen two. One was the one I rebuilt and sold on eBay for about $225 that I bought at a tool show....Jeeez, I sound like Todd now...*grin*

Marv

Re: Now wait a minute Marv...

Marv

>Scott,

I do like magnets, but not anywhere near a saw vise.

Marv

Todd - respectfully asking...

Raney

>How much do you actually use these vises to file saws? I ask because while I think that your opinions based on buying and selling are certainly valid, I also don't recall anyone who does a lot of filing that considered pivoting as particularly important. The perspective of a user is definitely different than that of a dealer... And I personally (and I don't think I'm alone) would MUCH prefer a non-tilting vise. I only do very basic filing (consistent rake, fleam, no sloping gullets, etc) so i suppose a pivot might be a very good thing for some of these applications, but I can't think of any at the moment...

Just because they sold more doesn't necessarily make them at all better. 'Feature' sales have always been a form of marketing that appeal to the 'more is better' school - and we both know more is NOT always better.

Well, I use a magnet just for that...

Alan DuBoff

>I use a magnet to pick up the filings, I happen to not like any swarf around my woodworking. I try not to do metalworking on my woodworking bench, but filing for instance does happen there occasionally as I use my 3D in my Emmert clone to file. A magnet comes in handy for that for me.

Personally, I don't see the magnet being able to magnetize the blade in a short time, even if it was strong enough.

I also use magnets at my mill and lathe when I work metal, to assist in cleaning up.

I think we have both stated our side, and we can agree to disagree.

Respectfully making a disrespectful point...

Alan DuBoff

>Raney,

Not for nothing, but you seem to be respectfully making a disrespectful point that because Todd is a dealer, that he doesn't understand the finer aspects of a saw vise.

I see people on WoodCentral giving advice that seem to rarely work wood, and in most cases spoken with the authority of an "expert". It is one thing to claim you've been cutting dovetails for 20+ years with nothing to show for it, but I don't put Todd in this class of folks.

In fact, every once in a while Todd will forge a tool and craft a handle for it, I enjoy those posts a lot. Todd does understand and use tools. In contrast when I see some folks that I know haven't done a piece of woodworking in years, but have an "expert" opinion on exactly what tools should be used or how something should be done, or worse, how they *ALWAYS* do it...I laugh...to myself...thinking..."self, I wonder when was the last they they *ALWAYS* do that??? Again, this doesn't describe Todd to me.

There is something that a pivot could be good for on a saw vise, and possibly why they came into existence. If you clamp a vise to a non-level surface, say a vertical post, you could pivot the vise so that it is level since, at least speaking for myself, I always want to have the teeth level while I'm filing.

I do respect your view Raney, and I respect Todd's also. Even so, neither you nor Todd need to respect my view, and I wouldn't hold that against you, we all have an opinion/view.

Personally, I could care less if the vise does or doesn't have a pivot, I just want it to be secure and hold the saw. It can do that with both types of vises. I haven't noticed the pivot vises moving a lot, they seem solid to me in most all cases.

I have an E.C.Stearns vise that has a pivot on it, I haven't moved it for years and it functions just fine on the desk where it is mounted. I like to sit while I file. But it hasn't presented any problems by having a pivot. So, for me it doesn't matter if it has a pivot on it or not, as long as it is stable. My 3D has a tilt and doesn't pivot, ok, Todd made a mistake and stated the 3D didn't have tilt...it's ok, good to know that Todd is only human also...I don't need to take Todd to the mat over it...

I follow Tom Law's advice and file every other tooth, turn the saw around and file the teeth I skipped...because like Tom Law I am human also and as such can make mistakes/errors. ;-)

Cheers,

Alan

My theory

Bob Hackett

>The D3 was made before lunch(or on Monday/Tuesday)while the 3D was made after lunch (or on Thurs/Fri).

Wednesdays=2nd shift made the vises on Wed.Who knows what goes on then.

Mainely,Bob

Who suspects it really boils down to if the patternmaking apprentices remembered the letters went in backwards on the pattern or not.

Re: Todd - respectfully asking...

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I am no expert on saw filing, but I do have a lot of experience. In the 1970's I had a small business sharpening saws at $1.50 a piece, but now only do my own. I have the Disston #2 pictured above.

When I read that a fellow needs "three hands" to move the saw from one position to another, I am thinking he has very limited experience. And that perhaps this is why he considers it a great disadvantage to have a vise less than 14 inches wide. I change position in about 6 seconds, so a wider vise might not save much time. My vise does not wobble at all at the "pivot" point as claimed. I should think there is something wrong with one that does.

I use the tilt feature sometimes on crosscut saws. I tilt it about 15 degrees. It is easier to tilt the saw and file straight across than to tilt the file, but I'm not sure I would pay extra for this feature.

It has also been claimed that this type of vise will wear out the file more quickly. I get very long life out of my files and I think this is more related to technique than vise style. Years ago I watched a Williamsburg blacksmith file a latch and asked "how long does a file like that last?" Another blacksmith way in the back called out "It depends who's using it."

Re: Respectfully making a disrespectful point...

Raney

>Alan,

I phrased my post as I did precisely because I know it can be construed as disrespectful, and I sincerely did not want it to be taken as such. I've seen Todd's work as well, and consider his smith work some of the finest I've seen.

That being said, though, he has also stated several times that he doesn't do 'as much woodworking as a lot of folks'. I know he owns a plethora of saws, but as a dealer who generally leaves his tools alone so as not to affect the collector values, I think it quite possible that he really does not file saws often. But I don't know. So I think it's a valid question - it's not a disregard for the value of his opinions, but the perspective of a buyer/seller is not necessarily the same as that of a user.

The ability to clamp to uneven surfaces may well be a good reason for clamping vises, and since I suspect a lot of these were sold to sharpening professionals who did most of their work while at work sites, or traveling, that would account for why they were so much more prevalent. However, the market for these vises today is almost entirely for people using them in home workshops, where finding or creating a level surface is a toddle. Leif gave the advantage of being able to mount to a board and then clamp the vise in a bench vise of some sort. Warren is the first person I've run across who said they used it as an aid to filing - and I certainly believe he has a lot more filing experience than I do. But he also states he doesn't consider it a feature worth paying extra for.

So it seems that the idea that a pivot makes a superior saw vise is questionable at best today. I certainly would prefer not to have one - it's one more area for problems, and problems at that point are prevalent. So far there has only been one person I've heard profess to thinking a pivot is a significant 'value added' feature, and the rationale given is that this is true based on their prevalence on the old tool market. This view is somewhat questionable given the dramatic shift in needs to the modern woodworker.

So once again, I consider it a valid question, and wanted to ask it in the least confrontational way possible. This was the best I could do.

I just thought of a good use for the pivot...

Alan DuBoff

>Raney,

I haven't used my saw vise for this yet, but I just thought of something that I could find very useful in having a pivot on a saw vise. That would be for crafting the back of a saw, I had been thinking to use a saw vise with the plate/back in the vise, and draw file the chamfers on the corners of the back material.

By having a pivot it would allow one to move it around so they could work on the various corner sides.

I have an Emmert clone that I usually clamp a small piece of 3/4" maple, and clamp one end in the Emmert and the other side gets the 3D. As heavy as the wood and vise are, the Emmert clone can handle it. I use it to make sure the vise is perfectly level to my position. The Emmert does for the most part mimic a pivot. I use it while finishing up the chamfers also.

While I have been using the Emmert for this, I don't like to as I don't want to work any metal at my woodworking bench, metal is filthy as you most likely know...even if I chamfer on the mill, I still find that I have to drawfile ever so lightly to get that clean flat finish on the chamfer...for the final pass I take a few wet 1500/2000 passes wrapped around a 1-2-3 block. I use the Emmert clone for most of this with the bench covered at that end. In order to keep it clean, I tilt the Emmert clone so that the chamfer edge is horizontal (if possible). Files work remarkably well to do the bulk, I just use a 4 xx-slim...the worn out ones are great, they take even less off...however, you need to concentrate to keep it looking nice, fit/finish is the most difficult part for me. So a pivot could be useful to me as a saw maker, and I would say that I use my vises for a fair amount of that.

Maybe one day I'll do it another way, or maybe I'll use a saw vise on a pivot, who knows, it's all good...lol

I'm down to a couple weeks to get my timber to finish my log home project, so saw making is on hold for the time being...I do have a pair of carcass saws I started, and I'll need them to do some of the joinery, but first I need to get the house done...which is a bit more of a challenge...;-)

Re: I just thought of a good use for the pivot...

Raney

>OK - since we're officially off on a tangent of a tangent - do you use the emmert for rasping/filing your totes? I have a versa-vise for this, but most of the rasp work I do just hanging the tote off the edge of the bench and working the rasp with the other hand. I've been consideringn getting an emmert for jsut this sort of work (and various other things, of course).

Also - is yours the clone of the small emmert that WC and Highland Hardware sell? The price on that is pretty attractive...

Yes, I absolutely always use the Emmert!

Alan DuBoff

>Raney,

I always use the Emmert for most all non-flat work, and most certainly for all handle work on handsaws and other chisel and knife handles as well. I have used it for every one of my own saws, from the first.

It's so convenient, once you get used to using it, it's something that's hard to give up. At least not something I would want to give up, even if it was to get a Parrot vise, or the gunmaker's vise, I want to be able to move the stock around as I work.

I often tilt it to an angle while I'm rasping a saw handle.

I use it for the back, once it is epoxied on the plate, and clamp the plate in it as I mentioned before for final cleanup, but if I could mill better that probably wouldn't be needed...*lol*

No, I think it is possible to design around that.

Alan DuBoff

>Marv,

I think your wrong, in looking/thinking about a design, I see a simple box with metal jaws along the top, but I would want the jaws to be some type of 1/8" or 3/16" steel, although some softer alloy might be better on the saw plates.

The magnets would be on the sides. I'm also thinking about using a cam clamp lever, as sold by Lee Valley. Would be cheaper and function the same.

What I would do different with my vise is that I would make the jaws to only be 3/16" for instance, laying flat on the top of the box, so that the edge of the steel comes in contact with the opposite jaw. This way the thickness of the jaw is the only hindrance and would secure most all backsaws, even the ones that have the handle cheek almost at the tooth line. This is a problem with most vintage vises, that as the handle cheek becomes closer to the tooth line, it leave less space and often one needs to clamp the saw with the heel at the tooth line unsupported, to keep the teeth close enough to the jaws. I'm sure you know this dilemma well. This is an area that can be innovated upon, to have a thinner/longer jaw to clamp the plate in.

For backsaws an 18" jaw would work fine, but would be nice to have a full 30"-36" model for what you call "regular handsaws". I just got a couple recently, a Disston 12 and a No 7, the 12 has wheat carvings. I think they are older as they have nibs on them. A local Galoot traded me for a couple Disston backsaws and some saw parts, at the recent BAG-A-THON. Those I need to move in the 3D, but not that big of a deal.

Re: No, I think it is possible to design around th

Marv

>You go ahead and use magnets and let us all know how that works out. I like being proven wrong. You'll want some big strong suckers. Several of those big welding magnets would work out quite well. Here's an idea, why not just magnatize the steel jaws? Use electromagnets so you can turn them off and on. Adjust the saw blade where ya want it and flip the switch. You could use a foot switch so you would have both hands to adjust the saw.

As for vises, what we really need is a vise for backsaws and a different one for "regular" handsaws. Yes, it's a problem when clamping a backsaw that's been filed close to the cheeks on the handle. Same problem with "regular" saws though. However, ya might as well not file those teeth, ya can't cut much with them anyway. Might as well just joint them and leave em alone. You don't need a big heavy duty vise to file the smaller teeth from say 10PPI and smaller. So having 3/16" would work, but they need to be angled on both sides of the blade to allow an unencumbered full stroke of the file.

I have a vise design that uses steel angles for jaws. When the angles come together, they line up edge to edge, all four edges with the two lower edges with a length of neoprene rubber hose split down the length of it so it will slip onto the lower edges to act as dampening and for better clamping. The two upper edges do the actual clamping of the blade and are milled flat. At both ends, part of the lower edges are cut away to clear the handle. Two jackscrews below for leveling and raising and lowering the tooth edge. No magnets with this design. In fact, brass might be better than steel for the jaws.

Why would you need a 36" vise? Maybe you could talk Joel into making one that big and add it to his product line.

Marv

sketch

paul womack

>Alan - you seem to have some definite ideas there - why not post a sketch (perhaps in another thread) and we can have a design-a-saw-vice thread.

BugBear

36" jaws

paul womack

>I think there would some interesting issues; the obvious mental picture of two 36" jaws closing evenly all the way down their length requires some high grade rigidity and precision, that might carry a hefty cost.

Working around this would be an interesting excercise.

Some of the cast iron vises already have 2 pressure points (from the cam) on the jaws, and I suspect the use of leather (etc) in the jaws, with a little "give" also reduces the requirment for extreme precision.

BugBeasr