New saw vise at TFWW *LINK*

Re: Selling tools and saw vises

wilbur

>"If you go to Ebay and do a completed auction search for Saw vises you will see from a couple of complted auctions of this type of saw vise that they seem to sell for between $12 and $15....now I'm not talking other types of saw vises like the Disston 3d but this type, so lets not compare apples and oranges, OK ....Personaly my stuff most times seem to sell toward the top end and not bragging but I think I could get $20-$25 for a vise like this if talked up good and presented well.

From my experance I could buy one for around $5 or more likely just toss it in my pile at the auction and get it for nothing because I would be very surprised if it would raise the price of my lot."

First point: not everyone interested in woodworking has an auction they can go to regularly to buy used tools. So an individual's experience in buying tools from a local auction in no way translates to the average woodworker's experience in tool buying. And for many, eBay is the only source of used tools.

If you take a look at the completed eBay listings for saw vises, you'll see that there are several Disston saw vises that sold for $199.99 to $263.99, plus shipping, a couple of saw vises that sold for $46-74.99, and a bunch of inexpensive saw vises that Todd is referencing. Out of the 20 inexpensive saw vises that sold, the price including shipping averaged $29.83 -- almost twice as much as the $12-15 that is claimed to be representative of the selling price of saw vises. Granted, this is still a lot less than what the Gramercy saw vise is selling for, but at least we should be accurate in our data, if we are going to toss around numbers.

I understand the point of prowling the used market for tools when the option for buying one new isn't practical for whatever reason. What I fail to understand is why people who prefer to look for used tools cannot appreciate the rationale for paying more money for a tool that is unused, and which will come with customer support.

Nor do I understand why some people consistently misrepresent what used tools can be bought for in these sorts of discussions, keeping in mind that not everyone lives within driving distance of an auction or flea market. We should compare apples to apples, but if we are going to do that, we should at least look at the data as a whole, instead of cherry-picking the cases that support our point of view, and take the entire cost of the transaction into account.

If I were to do the same thing, I would have ignored the inexpensive saw vises that sold recently on eBay when I calculated the average total selling price of a saw vise, or I would have said something on the order of, "Saw vises are really expensive to buy used, since this one sold for $263.99 on eBay, plus shipping."

But I don't say such things, since I try to be honest when making my case.

Re: Selling tools and saw vises

Joel

>Todd's comparison doesn't even work on that level. THe prices he is looking at are for Wentworth #1s which is the smaller version of the design - ours is based on the #2 which has a 14" jaw. Big difference! I wouldn't pay more than 20 bucks or so from a #1 either. #2 go for a good bit more.

Re: Selling tools and saw vises

Todd Hughes

>You are comaparing apples and oranges and I have to think you know it so lets get real OK ?.... As I said take a look at ebay completed auctions for this type of saw vise....again FOR THIS TYPE OF SAW VISE....and you will see that they sold for around $12 and $15...I'm not talking about other types of saw vises, I'm not talking about those with swivel bases or Disston ones but again I AM TALKING ABOUT THIS TYPE as this is what the discussion is about.

If you said that a stanley number 5 plane can be bought on the ebay for $25....and I retorted back that some bedrock 605 sold for over $100 and that a type 3 prelaterial went for $300 and Norris infils are even more expensive so you are wrong to say that a Stanley number 5 plane can be bought off ebay for $25...you would think I was being goofy....and you know what you would be right!

So what you are telling me that this type of vise that this one is a copy of can not be bought for the prices I told you?....Do I really have to go to ebay, look up the auctions for you and post a link here to show you that you can?

If I do I guess you will just start talking about how expensive some table saws are or some other tool [grin].....Todd

Keeping it respectful

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>This thread has had a lot of good discussion on used-vs-new. In spots, folks are beginning to get emotional; please recall that WC operates on civility. Arguing the ideas, great; but with civility, please.

Re: Selling tools and saw vises *LINK*

Todd Hughes

>Here is what looks like a nice example of this type of saw vise that sold on ebay for a reasonable price. Jaws are about 11 inch across and sounds like it was sold by a Tool guy who says they line up fine...If you go in and do a search for saw vises this is about what these things go for, some a little less and some a little more...If you take out the desirable Disston D3 vises I don't think any saw vise sold for more then $30....many do not even get a $10 bid....Some table saws and planes go for much more !....Todd


Ebay Saw Vise

Re: Selling tools and saw vises

Joel

>Todd - this a #1 with the small jaw - it's worth what they are asking - I could not find a #2 with the 14" jaw on Ebay recently (but I a far from an expert searcher and with all the extra ads ebay added the screen is so slow, you have to scroll down, it just drives me away. )

as I said those sell for lot more and are rarer but it's more desirable for anyone doing a lot of sharpening than either a #1 or any saw vise on a pivot.

Let me help you out Joel... *LINK*

Alan DuBoff

>Here's one at the link below. Keep in mind that like any vise the shipping is kinda high. That is because it is odd shape and probably a bit heavy. Still, Joel will charge shipping and I don't think they will fit in flat rate, not sure.


Wenthworth #2 sold for $9.95

Oops, that didn't even get bid on...go figure...

Alan DuBoff

>

Re: Let me help you out Joel...

Joel

>Dang - that could have been a great deal for someone - they don't fit in a flat rate box - at least I don't think so.

BTW if you do get a chance to get one of these make sure the casting isn't cracked at the "U".

Re: Selling tools and saw vises

wilbur

>Again, Todd fails to include shipping costs in what he says is the selling price of the saw vise, and he is cherry-picking a single example to make his case.

I redid a search of completed saw vise auctions on eBay just now, and over 21 inexpensive saw vises that I found, the average total cost to the buyer is $28.80, not the $12-15 that Todd was quoting. Todd's figure is half of the actual cost to the buyer.

To clarify:

I am not including the collectors market Disston 3D saw vises that go for $199 on up in my data.

I'm even leaving out a pocket of saw vises that sold in the $46-74.99 range, plus shipping.

These are the inexpensive saw vises that Todd says are equivalent to Joel's, except that they all aren't, since many of them have 9" jaws, not 14" jaws. If I only included the 14" jaw saw vises, the average total cost would go up.

I've even included a table so we all can see all the saw vises that I am taking into account. As I said before, I'm trying to take an honest look at what is available on the used market. Looking at eBay auctions as a whole is a more representative way of doing this than just pointing out an auction here or there. As you can see, I've included saw vises where the final auction price was even less than $12, which would go against my argument, but I include those saw vises anyway to provide an honest look at the selling prices.

As I've said before, there's nothing wrong per se with buying used tools, or pointing out that a used tool can provide the function of a new tool.

There is something wrong with saying that you can buy a used tool for $xxx on eBay when looking at the actual total price to the buyer shows that the total winds up being twice that.

What attributes are desirable for a saw vise?

Alan DuBoff

>In following with this discussion, I really wasn't trying to poo-poo Joel's vise at all, just pointing out how I was disappointed that there wasn't any new innovation incorporated into it.

If we look at the good qualities for a saw vise, I think it gets down to:

1) width of the jaws (yes, give me a 36" wide vise)

2) stability of the unit when in use

3) how cleanly the jaws hold the saw plate

4) ease of opening/closing/adjusting

While weight is important, it seems to me that this has more to do with the stability, and if the vise is stable, there should be no problem no matter how much it weighs. The goal is to have a vise that you can file on and keep the saw stable, Marv pointed that out about the Disston 3D, and I would agree.

The idea that I had was that as long as the jaws clamp down the plate securely, maybe it would be possible to use magnets rather than a clamp style jaw. That if we had a set of magnets that rotated the poles so that a lever would allow you to lock the plate in place. I would like to see some type of nice wood with a metal bar to lock the plate in.

Doesn't it seem in this day and age we can do this and have a better saw vise than yesteryears designs? Not dissing the vintage designs, I use them and they are available, but in thinking about a new saw vise and it being a better mouse trap, the solutions are out there...

Regards,

Alan

Poor design even at $20

Todd Hughes

>I didn't include postage in the costs because it would vary according to where you live....just like it will I imagine if you buy one of these new vises unless the postage is figured into the costs which I don't think it is.

...Again if you just look at this type of vise you can see they don't sell for much....We were told that the larger no.2 ones are more desirable and would sell for more and would be a better comparison to the new one since they are the same size....yet Alan provides a link to a nice No. 2 that couldn't even get a $10 bid!...If I had bid on it I could have got it for $20 INCLUDING postage , over $80-$100+ less then what it would have cost me to buy one of these new ones.

But never mind the cost of the tool and the money saved I think that better saw vises are out there then this design and can be easly found.....[and on the cheap too!]

...As I said befor I think a person would be better served with the type of vise that you can adjust to hold the saw at a better angle for sharpening, also many had leather inserts in the heavy cast iron jaws which dampen vibrations [and noise!] both features I think makes for a better, easier to use, saw vise at least going by my experance. This is why so many original saw vises were made with a way to adjust the angle of the saw while it is being filed and why these type of non adjustable vises are not popular and really never were. I probably see 5 adjustable vises for every non adjustable one even though the non adjustable ones were cheaper to buy when new .....Todd

The only advantage I see in this new vise is that it is probably hard to break being made out of stamped steel instead of cast iron....and that is an advantage as you see many broken saw vises.

..But for this small advantage you get stuck with a poor design when there are better ones out there that can be easly bought for much less.....Todd

Re: What attributes are desirable for a saw vise?

Joel

>magnets would magnitize the saw blade and filings would stick to the blade as you file and to the magnets.

Re: Poor design even at $20

Joel

>Todd,

While everyone is entitled to a personal preference. I can't recall any contemporary photograph taken of any professional saw filer working in a factory or workshop (as opposed to on-side) using an angle adjustable saw vise. Many other photos of vertical only vises exist. The former are just aren't as rigid which makes them far less desirable if you have a permanent setup and sharpen lots of saws. For us it was a no-brainer. Even Marv who has generously posted in this thread a picture of a rebuilt Disston 3D (which is the best of the pivoting saw vises) with a redone pivot that makes it more rigid. Our goal was to copy the best working saw setup we could find, not duplicate a saw vise that happens to be popular now and is consequently a collectible. AS you have pointed out many times prices of collectibles reflect their original rarity and current popularity.

Magnets? Did you say Magnets?

Marv

>Having a magnet even close to a saw being filed would be disasterous!

I have sharpened a few saws that had become magnatized. Huge PITA. The filings stick to the very tooth you are filing on.

Marv

Re: Poor design even at $200

Marv

>Joel,

I don't think of the Disston 3D vise as a collectible item. I think what is happening is, over the past couple of years, people are learning which vise is perceived to be the best. More and more people are wanting to file their own saws. It costs a lot of money to ship a saw across country to someone like me to have it sharpened, often times more than the cost to sharpen it. People are learning that the cost of a $200 vise can pay for itself in a relatively short time. However, some of those people probably aren't adding in the cost of files that can cost as much a 5 to 6 bucks, plus a good saw set, and lighting and magnification. And their cost of time to learn to file a saw that will cut equal to a professionally sharpened saw that they used to pay thirty dollars for.

Even though the Disston 3D is at the top of the list in popularity, it does have it's inherent problems, the adjustable bench clamp and the cam wears out. Disston also made a 4D without the adjustable bench clamp. Those vises are much sturdier, but they also have the same type cam locking mechanism. The 4D was actually designed to file bandsaws, but they can be easily modified to accept a regular handsaw.

Most adjustable vises are not used with it tilted for filing sloping gullets. As you know, you don't need to tilt the vise to slope your gullet. I always felt that designing a vise that can be tilted was stupid. But lets not get started on the subject of sloping your gullets. If we do, this thread will never end. *grin*

Marv

Re: Poor design even at $20

Todd Hughes

>".... I can't recall any contemporary photograph taken of any professional saw filer working in a factory or workshop (as opposed to on-side) using an angle adjustable saw vise...."

So you are telling me this new vise is being marketed toward the professional saw filer and not the home or inexperanced saw filer?

I have no doubt that an experance professional saw filer could use a non tilting saw vise very well and maybe even prefer it if that is what he is used too.Imagine after a 10,000 saws he could do it in the dark while looking out the window [grin]...I don't think many of us are in that catogory.

... I have some experance filing saws but am far from being an expert that is for sure and I think to do a good job I need all the help I can get. One of the things that I have found that makes it easier is to be able to tilt the saw so that you can see the teeth better and that the light reflects off them better. Of course with a tilting vise if you find for you it works best to have the saw straight up and down you can adjust the vise so that the saw is held that way....but with a non adjustable vise you are stuck with that one position.

Really surprises me as a maker of this new vise, who I would guess did alot of research into different designs, would make the mistake and say that the Disston D3 was the best of the pivoting saw vise designs....actually the D3 is a non pivoting design, it doesn't tilt. The tilting or pivoting one is the D2 which looks a good deal different then the D3

Actually pivoting saw vises are probably the most common of all the old saw vises you see which I think reflects on thier popularity with most wood workers who choose them originaly over the mostly cheaper fixed designs......Todd

The 3D Disston vise IS a tilting vise.

Marv

>Todd wrote:

Really surprises me as a maker of this new vise, who I would guess did alot of research into different designs, would make the mistake and say that the Disston D3 was the best of the pivoting saw vise designs....actually the D3 is a non pivoting design, it doesn't tilt. The tilting or pivoting one is the D2 which looks a good deal different then the D3

---------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the problems with forums of this kind, there is so much misinformation that beginners and the uninformed must deal with.

A good part of this thread has to do with tilting or adjustable vises versus vises that don't tilt such as Joel's new vise.

How is it possible to read through this thread and conclude that a Disston 3D vise doesn't tilt? BTW, it's 3D, not D3. The fact that it tilts is one of it's inherent weaknesses. No, it doesn't swivel on a ball joint, but it DOES tilt.

It has to be at least a little confusing for a beginner to read a thread like this one with so much conflicting information. When I was learning how to file saws, I was fortunate to have a mentor who knew what he was talking about.

Marv

Uhmmm...No

Todd Hughes

>"One of the problems with forums of this kind, there is so much misinformation that beginners and the uninformed must deal with.

How is it possible to read through this thread and conclude that a Disston 3D vise doesn't tilt? BTW, it's 3D, not D3"

Uhmm so it's called a 3D and not D3, eh?....I wonder why Diston called it a D3 in thier catologs then such as the original 1909 one I took the following photo from

I think the 3D ones required you to wear those funny little glasses! [giggle]....Todd

Close up of D3 base

Todd Hughes

>heres a photo taken from an original Disston catalog that shows the non piviting base of the D3

close up of D2 base

Todd Hughes

>Here is a photo taken from Diston catalog that shows the pivoting D2 vise. Please notice the wingnut [right above bench top]that when loosened allowed the top of the vise to pivot and then to be locked into place

Re: Uhmmm...No

Marv

>Typical inconsistancies that Disston is known for. Wonder why the cast 3D into their vises? Not all of their vises, just some of them.

Marv

Re: Close up of D3 base

Marv

>That vise tilts....the saw blade is hiding it.

Marv

Re: close up of D2 base

Marv

>Yep, that one also tilts.

Looks like....

Todd Hughes

>Disston got it wrong in thier book they published "disston Saw, Tool and File Book" too!