pins first

I'd guess marking....

David Weaver

if you do pins first, marking the tails is always easy with a pencil.

I generally do tails first on through dovetails, but couldn't say why. Pins first on half blinds that I can recall.

Maybe pin aesthetics?

Wiley Horne

Perhaps they decided the joint would be judged on the stylishness and evenness of the pins—especially when using thin pins. So they did them first to nail exactly how the pins would look.

If you went tails first, even a small sawing error on a tail would show up on a thin pin—resulting in an uneven look to the pins—which wouldn’t be noticeable on heavier pins.

My guess still doesn’t answer how they kept the pins board from rotating or walking on the tails board when transferring—which is what I see is the main problem in pins first.

Wiley

I think so too...

John in NM

Cut the pins by eye, as you can do with the practice that comes from hours of doing it. Probably easier to mark the tails from the relatively small pins, more room to get in there and mark.... if you do it for hours and hours.

Re: pins first

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

what is it about pins first that seems to make it the preferred way for people in production situations?

Bill, obviously in all cases, one needs to saw straight and square. However, judging the angles in pins first places less pressure on getting the angles correct. This makes it easier to freehand and not mark out. Watch Frank Klausz as he saws the pins so casually.

The other benefit from pins first is when one is sawing very narrow dovetails. It is easier to mark the tail board from the pin board than the vice versa set up.

I saw tails first as I like to set out the angles, viewing these as part of the design element.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: pins first

Joe shelton

Derek, Frank is not casual. He is more programmatic and disciplined than anyone else I've observed at work.

Every step in his process has explicit intent, and is directly related to his sequence of steps. The fluidity of his actions is a commentary on a life spent doing it the right way.

He is so good that he is able to be conversational and expository, but he is adamant that he does it all for the right reason.

Re: pins first

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Derek, Frank is not casual. He is more programmatic and disciplined than anyone else I've observed at work.

Every step in his process has explicit intent, and is directly related to his sequence of steps. The fluidity of his actions is a commentary on a life spent doing it the right way.

He is so good that he is able to be conversational and expository, but he is adamant that he does it all for the right reason.

Joe, Frank just looks casual. He does everything for a reason, knows what it is, and is relaxed and confident. My comment was not intended to sound critical ... in the least!

I have a woodworking friend who is a high end designer/maker. He was taught by his father - also a high end designer/maker - 40 years ago to dovetail pins first. The only difference in their dovetails and Frank's is the width of the pin, which is narrow, the way I like to go. Having completed dovetails side-by-side with my friend, he pins-first and me tails-first, what I noted was his relaxed manner in sawing the pins. He is obviously experienced in balancing the pin board on the tail board, which is one of the features I dislike about this orientation.

As a comment, I mark out the tails then saw them. I find this very easy to do. Removing waste on the tail board does not bring up any sweat, especially with narrow sockets. Transferring tails to pins requires as much - just different - effort as the reversed process.

All-in-all, I think that the two methods balance out in terms of difficulty. Why I continue with Tails First is that I am used to visualising the result this way. I assume that a Pins First dovetailer would learn to visualise the result just as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: pins first

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

As a comment, I mark out the tails then saw them. I find this very easy to do. Removing waste on the tail board does not bring up any sweat, especially with narrow sockets. Transferring tails to pins requires as much - just different - effort as the reversed process.

It was this kind of thinking that led to my question. My impression from limited data is that people that make ten or a hundred times the drawers that I do in a year do pins first. Puzzling to me because the two approaches seem equivalent in time spent. For someone that does a few drawers a year I think tails is easier to get right.

However, note the comment on tapering the tails, below. It may be this reason the pins went first.

Copy of letter from Alan Batty:

Hi Bill,

You have transported me back years, I am going on memory here, I will try to answer your questions in order

[1] we always cut one side at a time, to my knowledge no one ever sawed as a pair, this was in case of error

[2], we always cut the pins first and marked the dove tails off the pins, the pins varied as to the century, in the regency period for example I believe the pins were very slender, I have seen every combination over the years from cogged dovetails [I thought these were hansome] to were the pin and dovetail were of almost equal size. just a point of interest when we cut the dovetails we made the dovetails slightly thicker on the outside,[[this was only a slight taper hardly perceptable.] when you tapped dovetails together they tightened up without splitting.As I say we always cut the pins first, I have heard auguments for the opersite, just a point all tradesmen I know always worked, cutting the pins first.

[3] I do not understand what you mean by slips, on the bottom of the drawer we put a wearing piece, which ran on the runner for the drawer it ran the full lenght of drawer at on 2 sides, this was only a rubbed glue joint fixing in place, this wearing piece was tenon sawed all most thro but no quite, it was cut every 21/2 to 3 inches at approximately at a 30 degree angle, it was important the saw cut did NOT go all the way through, I was given to understand by doing this the wear was less, never did understand how this was supposed to wear better, but we always did it anyway [I have seen this feature commonly on English drawers in antique shop]

[4] The bottom of the drawer was a 1/4 to 5/16th thick, made in planks depending on the tradesman 4"to 7" wide and edges were rubbed glue joints until final width was achieved, this then fitted into a slot that was cut around the drawer, the slot was worked out so as to fall on a dovetail not a pin, as it would weaken a pin

[5] 6 sets a day were required.

Tonight you have taken me on a journey down memory lane, the above is how the workshops did drawers in my day, in the attached document on columns, I make mention of the importance of doing personal research, unfortunately, I have done no reseach on this subject, but gone on memory from the workshops, so if there is any Inconsistencies I apologise.

Take care

Allan

In a separate note he described removing waste from tail board with three saw kerfs and one paring cut. Got to have efficiency to make 6 drawers in a day.

Re: pins first

Jack Dover

I have no experience working in production shop, but pin first approach:

- is producing a straight and crisp edge, which used for transfer later. Tails first produces at least some fuzz which may push a pencil away. Out of interest I occasionally check transferred tail lines with a marking gauge and they're always spot on.

- requires less effort in steering a saw, since it's a vertical cut in end grain, rather the angled cut at an arbitrary angle.

- requires less effort for correcting any error before transfer, since every part of sawn pins can be checked with either a square's body or a square's blade. Pretty sure that at a factory nobody was checking anything though.

- makes pins easy to transfer. I don't have to mess with supports, alignment boards, vises, clamping, etc. As long as there's enough space to put a tails board on a workbench I'm in business. No messing with lights either, a piece can be rotated for the best light. No need for "140 trick", "tape trick" or any other trick too - just put a piece on a line, which is well lit and visible. Tails first requires all kinds of tricks for this and I'm not a circus pony. It doesn't even require a workbench, on a few occasions I worked on a floor.

- does not require me to change my method depending on a size. If a case fits vertically in my workshop I can dovetail it. The bigger a piece the more stable it is during transfer.

Re: pins first

Wiley Horne

Bill,

Really interesting letter from Allan Batty. He says in part,

“ [3] I do not understand what you mean by slips, on the bottom of the drawer we put a wearing piece, which ran on the runner for the drawer it ran the full lenght of drawer at on 2 sides, this was only a rubbed glue joint fixing in place, this wearing piece was tenon sawed all most thro but no quite, it was cut every 21/2 to 3 inches at approximately at a 30 degree angle, it was important the saw cut did NOT go all the way through, I was given to understand by doing this the wear was less, never did understand how this was supposed to wear better, but we always did it anyway [I have seen this feature commonly on English drawers in antique shop]”

_______

The kerfed ‘wear pieces’ caught my eye. There is a book on furniture and methods used by the Seymours in Boston, circa 1800, which calls attention to the use on drawer bottoms of similar kerfed and glued blocks, which were connected on the wear side by a continuous veneer strip.

Finally getting to the point: The purpose of kerfing the glued strips was to allow for seasonal movement of the drawer bottom, without cracking (not always successful). The Seymours were British ex-patriots and brought British ways with them. I suspect the kerfing that Allan describes for his wear strips was likewise to allow for some seasonal movement.

Wiley

Re: pins first

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

is producing a straight and crisp edge, which used for transfer later. Tails first produces at least some fuzz which may push a pencil away. What I like about tails first is that I am marking with a marking knife that makes a line much thinner than a pencil.

- requires less effort in steering a saw, since it's a vertical cut in end grain, rather the angled cut at an arbitrary angle. The next step is sawing the tail, at angle. Aren't the two methods equivalent in this regard, only differing in what step the angled cut is made?

Re: pins first

Jack Dover

Yeah, a knife line is finer, however whatever we saw first we can saw right on a pencil line. It's the other part that has to be sawn to the line and a knife line on end grain tends to close up or is barely visible. Maybe this is why people like using tape transferring tails to a pin board.

You're also right about having to saw at an angle anyway. However with pings first the edge on the end grain is all that matters, and it is always straight and crisp. Rest of the pin could be totally gnawed, but as long as you can make one swift and steady sawing motion - the edge is crisp. And this prevents error accumulation.

Tails first demand better sawing skills. If a tail is not saw absolutely perfect we're introducing small errors at a transfer step already. If we compensate for these errors there's more time spent paring to fit.

With pins first I don't even cut pins completely, just cope waste out. I saw and cope pins on all four sides, transfer pins on all four sides, saw and cope all tails, chisel out waste on all sides and then fit all the corners. It's a very streamlined sequence, I don't switch from one activity to another going corner by corner, quite a bit of labor is saved on clamping and re-clamping and small things like taking a tool and putting it down.

Also I'd like to point out I'm not implying this is a better way, just highlighting some differences. It's personal preference after all, either way is fine. Mine has to do with the fact I've been taught pins first by experienced craftsmen under their direct supervision, literally lingering over my shoulder and commenting every mistake. Tails first was something I've tried early and on my own, so naturally results weren't as good. Understanding there are labor savings came in later when I realized it takes me about 30% less time doing pins first. Pretty sure once they start getting together from a saw it will be 50% down, fitting is where I spend the most (and where the gaps are created).

and that is the reason beginners use tails first

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

fitting is where I spend the most (and where the gaps are created).

It has been my experience teaching dovetail classes for our club that tails first gets one quicker to an acceptable result. If after making a few drawers you are still fitting it is testimony that pins first is harder to learn. I just completed 8 drawers and adjusted only one half pin as a precaution. A too tight half pin can result in splitting out this pin upon assembly.

Given that many (most) professionals do pins first it must offer an advantage. Or is it just old school?

The Headley shop does tails first. Maybe there is no labor difference.

Re: and that is the reason beginners use tails fir

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I have done tails first for about 45 years. It has been so long that I long have forgotten the arguments that favor this method. I can't imagine where you would get the idea that many or most workers do the opposite.

Re: and that is the reason beginners use tails fir

John in NM

He says where he got that idea - from an old timer like yourself who also spent a lifetime working in shops and watching other workers in those shops.

I would bet that the preference for order of dovetailing among professionals has a lot more to do with habits long formed and the long formed habits of those from whom they learned them than it does with speed, convenience, quality, or effectiveness.

In the interest of fairness, perhaps you didn't read that post - I often don't read all the posts in a thread.

Re: pins first

Robert Hazelwood

I have always done tails first, because to me the most difficult part to saw *exactly* right is the angled tail cuts. I can get them square across the thickness of the tailboard, but it's not always at the exact angle I marked- there is a bit of randomness.

With Tails first this randomness (in theory) gets translated directly to the pins and it's trivial to start the saw at the marked angle, whatever it is. Once you've established the cut at that angle, then all you have to do is go straight down to the baseline.

With pins first, the last cut is on the tailboard and there's no tolerance for angular error. It's probably not as hard as I make it out, but it's always seemed like it would be harder than tails first.

On the other hand, on occasion I have experienced gaps that I do not think were sawing errors. I think they are errors in marking out the tails- the knife does not ride the inside walls of the pin socket perfectly and marks out an undersize pin. So even if you saw perfectly on the line you get a gap that looks almost like you sawed on the wrong side of the line.

I am always doing skinny pins and have to use a thin flexible marking knife. You can't see what the business end of the knife is actually doing. Most of the time it works out fine but this is the part of dovetailing that I'm least confident about. With pins first you'd have much better visibility.

I got the same and....

David Weaver

have heard the same from people who did production dovetails.

Though I've generally done tails first on through dovetails, I'm likely to change in the near future in favor of the pencil over the knife. I don't do derek pins, but my pins are way too small for a normal pencil.

Re: and that is the reason beginners use tails fir

Jack Dover

If after making a few drawers you are still fitting it is testimony that pins first is harder to learn.

It's rather a testimony of my sawing skills. Usually there's one pin too tight. On a case a time sink is usually a miter.

Marking small pins.

Jack Dover

You might still mark it with a pencil I guess.

On one of timberframing projects someone demonstrated me a "proper" sharpening of a carpenter's pencil: one side is shaved flat until lead is exposed, a full inch at least or sometimes all of it, the other side has a long and shallow taper. A taper is like a regular pencil from a sharpener, just 2-3" long. A lead is chisel pointed and sharpened for the most fine line, it's finer than 0.5mm automatic pencil. Maybe you've seen this already.

It's sharpened this way to remove parallax, but this also allows a pencil to get into really tight spots. Carpenter pencils have a good lead - doesn't break, not too soft, not too hard, I'm using black Dixons almost exclusively now. The flat side goes against a tail, and its lead can get into 1/8" openings easily.

But of course it would be nice if you'd just switch to pins first.

It's funny you'd mention that...

David Weaver

..as I was thinking about this, I figured "I could just make a pencil like that" after experimenting with drafting leads to find one that doesn't break easily (they vary -blackwing pencils also have really nice strong leads and could be modified).

I may have had a sawing bias that caused doing tails first years ago - I do remember it being easier to keep the tails square if that was the point and sawing to a line wasn't - but that's long gone.

I like the discussion in this thread about having a small bias in the pins and tails. That kind of stuff appeals to me. Not just in this, but in everything. Making planes is all about biases. Making chisels now is about biases in the shape. Something a little off of perfect always seems in the maker's favor, and when the result doesn't show, even better.

(blackwings make nice shop pencils, too - but I'm sure some of the other premium pencils that cost a third as much are just as good - they all have stronger leads than commodity pencils and finding dark marking pencils isn't difficult).

To answer your question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I can't imagine where you would get the idea that many or most workers do the opposite.

Robert Emmett for one (see write up on Robert in an early FWW). I know one of his apprentices. I was told his shop did through joints pins first, half blinds tails first. Of course Frank Klause. There is some person in AU that has a blog that seems to know his stuff when it comes to Period Furniture. And of course Alan Batty. I would presume anyone working in a factory used whatever method would be most efficient. So my question was in what way was it more efficient?

What you did for 40 years is irrelevant to the question for you were not making a living making drawers at competitive prices. We hobbyists can do it any way we please for we have no competition.

Which comes first in the Colonial Williamsburg shop? They aren't making a living producing either but I am curious.

Re: To answer your question

Steve Voigt

Which comes first in the Colonial Williamsburg shop? They aren't making a living producing either but I am curious.

They mostly do pins first. John Peeler, the senior of the two apprentices, mentioned that he had to relearn how to cut them after he got the gig, but now finds pins first easier.

There is really no doubt about what was traditionally done in the 18th/19th centuries…it was certainly pins first. Whether anyone should care or modify their practice is a different question entirely.

Re: To answer your question

Warren in Lancaster, PA

What you did for 40 years is irrelevant to the question for you were not making a living making drawers at competitive prices. We hobbyists can do it any way we please for we have no competition.

I have made an inordinate number of drawers because when I was first in business I made drawers for other businesses. I got this work because I was fast and neat.

You are a little careless with the truth.

Re: pins first

Charlie

You don't have to mark out the pins in a narrow opening, as you would if you cut them tails first.

Re: To answer your question

Charlie

They're easier to mark out. If you do tails first the 'money' cut is straight down the board, at 90* to the face. If you do pins first the money cut is on an angle to the face (the tails).