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pins first

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Re: pins first

#26

Survey....

David Weaver

Warren - I think Bill's point was relevant. He heard from someone in sheffield, and we've heard from several others in professional shops where pins first was taught and required.

If we were betting at Lloyds, the odds are in favor of pins first being more common.

What you have done as an individual against a much larger group doesn't become relevant unless there are lots more of you reporting the same thing.

My personal thought is that I started tails first on through dovetails because it was easier for me, but as time has gone on and sawing isn't an issue, it's still more of a pain to mark the pins when they are small - especially in combination with larger drawers with thicker sides. The marking becomes the only variable and it was irritate me to make 6 drawers a day and mark all of the pins with a knife when a pencil would do fine. Especially since the knife is already on the wrong side of the line.

But I'm less curious about what I would do or what one person here or there would do and more interested in what people in an organized business would do (the impact of the economic effect is more likely to be realized than it would be in a single headstrong individual's shop).

Re: pins first

#27

Re: To answer your question

Jack Dover

How do they cut half-blinds, do they change a method or is it still pins first?

Also, how do we know for sure it was pins first in 18-19 centuries? I'm curious to learn how we have figured it.

Re: pins first

#28

Re: and that is the reason beginners use tails fir

Sgian Dubh

"Given that many (most) professionals do pins first it must offer an advantage. Or is it just old school?"

Bill, I can't say for sure, but my experience suggests that most of the professional craft makers I know when undertaking hand work, prefer tails first for through and lapped dovetails reserving the tails first approach only for those dovetails that must be done that way, i.e., secret mitred and secret lapped dovetails.

Certainly this is my approach for a couple of reasons, such as:

1. I was taught this way and I guess it's ingrained

2. Matching pairs of sides can be gang sawn if desired which can save time, e.g., drawer sides and the tail cut of matching carcase parts

Having said all that I have to admit that my focus is on the professional craft end of the market so generally neatness and accuracy are of greater importance than speed, but inordinate slowness also isn't acceptable.

I also have a fair amount of experience working in factory type settings making all sorts of stuff ranging through joinery to quite large batches of matching furniture. For the most part where, for example, a bunch of matching drawers had to be made out of solid wood and dovetailed at the corners I'm afraid things like hand saws and chisels didn't/don't really get a look in because the parts get cut to length and width on the saw, then go over to the either dovetailing machine or to the dovetailing station with its router and jig.

I can't imagine there are many (any?) medium or large batch or mass production furniture making facilities left in the world where it's still the norm to cut drawer dovetails by hand. I could be wrong on that where, for example, period inspired or reproduction furniture has been sited in parts of the world where labour is still relatively inexpensive compared to the cost of labour in the target market. Slainte.

Re: pins first

#29

Re: and that is the reason beginners use tails fir

Sgian Dubh

Sorry, brain fart where I said above: "... my experience suggests that most of the professional craft makers I know when undertaking hand work, prefer tails first for through and lapped dovetails reserving the tails first approach only for those dovetails that must be done that way, i.e., secret mitred and secret lapped dovetails."

It should have read: "... my experience suggests that most of the professional craft makers I know when undertaking hand work, prefer tails first for through and lapped dovetails reserving the pins first approach only for those dovetails that must be done that way, i.e., secret mitred and secret lapped dovetails."

Sorry about that, and I hope the correction in the previous paragraph eliminates any confusion. Slainte.

Re: pins first

#30

Right in you homeland

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The antique store in Shelbyville imports not only authentic English antiques but also reproductions that they tell me are made in England. They used to be authentic right down to the white oak drawer sides, but of late I see red oak as the market for white oak whisky barrel staves went crazy. A 4 drawer English equivalent of US Federal bedside chest of drawers would be about $3000, and more with nice inlay.

Re: pins first

#31

Re: and that is the reason beginners use tails fir

Jack Dover

Aren't full-blind (secret) and half-blind (secret lapped) dovetails are pins first anyway?

Also, I'm doing lapped dovetails pins first too.

Re: pins first

#32

Thanks, I care and a question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Whether anyone should care or modify their practice is a different question entirely. I might change my practice if I knew why pins first is/was practiced, especially given the company that does, and did, pins first.

It is a curiosity thing mostly. Tails first is so much easier in my hands and easier to teach. Yet pins first obviously has some compelling advantage I am unable to see.

If anyone is ever able to ask at the Williamsburg shop, or similar authority, as to why pins first was the common and preferred practice please report back.

Re: pins first

#33

Re: pins first

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If using a knife to mark the tight quarters is not a significant disadvantage. But I know no idea how pins first people mark, nor what was used to mark in 1820. If a fat pencil you nailed the reason.

Re: pins first

#34

Re: and that is the reason beginners use tails fir

Sgian Dubh

"Aren't full-blind (secret) and half-blind (secret lapped) dovetails are pins first anyway?"

If your terminology translates my secret mitred dovetails to your full blind (secret) description, Jack then yes, they are executed pins first.

I did make an error in my earliest post in this thread where I mistakenly said tails when I meant to say pins. Some time later I realised I'd made this error and made a new post to correct my error, which I had to do this way because the time limit for correcting an original post had expired. I trust you noted both posts. Slainte.

Re: pins first

#35

Re: Right in you homeland

Sgian Dubh

Bill, I believe there are still a few British based furniture companies selling very well made reproductions to local buyers, and to overseas buyers, which may well include north America.

The last time I attended the type of trade fair here in the UK that showcased such businesses was perhaps ten or so years ago. At that time I gleaned from talking to the show staff on these business's stands that a great deal of the furniture was actually substantially hand-made in Vietnam after basic wood processing, and one or two other Asian country's were mentioned, but I can't now recall which ones. I'm not sure if primarily Asian based manufacturing is still the case, or if it has it may be that, for example, CNC manufacturing of the same stuff has increased significantly. I'm not even sure if those businesses have survived since then, and maybe this recent Covid thing has made things even more challenging. Slainte.

Re: pins first

#36

Re: pins first

Charlie

You can mark it with anything that tickles your fancy as long as you know where to saw vs. the mark you made.

There's an old Peabody Essex Museum video of the late Phil Lowe (can't believe he's gone - so sad) cutting dovetails pins first and marking the tails with his trusty #2 Dixon Ticonderoga. Lowe was the museum's conservator, along with running his school, etc., etc.

Re: pins first

#37

Re: pins first

Charlie

Not the PEM video, but using a pencil here as well. Fast forward (or not) to about the 32 minute mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dVRDlAuwg

Re: pins first

#38

Re: pins first

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

You can mark it with anything that tickles your fancy as long as you know where to saw vs. the mark you made.

This point is why it would be ho hum for someone like Alan Batty making 6 drawers a day and an exercise in frustration for someone like me that makes drawers for something and then months pass before I need to do it again. Even with the knife line I need to learn how close to kiss it before I reliably get fits I can thump together with my hand.

Re: pins first

#39

Re: pins first

Charlie

Totally agree as I don't think it's ever a mistake to work to a fine mark.

I'm wracking my brain for the name of the woodworker, but there was a photo in a Fine Woodworking article of a guy (gal?) marking narrow pins from the tails and having to shine a flashlight into the joint to do it. Umm, sorry, no. Not sure I would want to do it all by feel either.

But this argument, tails first or pins first, is probably what started internet woodworking forums in the first place. The argument is like a "well played" game of tic-tac-toe -- no winner.

Frid called tails first "real Mickey Mouse" in his dovetailing video. I remember the line well because of how he pronounced Mickey Mouse in his thick, Danish brogue. Others swear by tails first. There are of course a version or two that REQUIRE pins first. Oh well, the debate rages on I suppose.

Re: pins first

#40

Not a debate

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I am not advocating either. Nor debating. In fact, there should be no debate. State facts and the conclusions become obvious to all. Condescending comments like "Micky Mouse" substitute for the absence of sound arguments.

I know the advantages to me of tails first. Easier to learn to saw them as good as they need to be. Easier to teach.

Obviously for someone experienced this advantage gets overcome by some advantage of pins first. I keep coming back to the same question, what is it about pins first that is compelling for someone cranking out drawers.

Marking has been proposed as the advantage. I'm not convinced. Batty's explanation of biasing the tail cut so that the joint tightens does sound compelling for someone experienced enough to pull it off. But he is the only person I have ever heard describe this technique.

Re: pins first

#41

Re: Not a debate

Charlie

I was just quoting Frid on the Mickey Mouse thing... thought it might raise a chuckle.

Carry on!

Re: pins first

#42

Re: Not a debate

Charlie

Yep, if you do tails first you can nudge the tail board a smidgen past the end of the pin board, or the gauged line on half-blinds, make a nice deep distinct line and saw right on the line (instead of beside it) using the line as a trench in which the saw blade runs. Buy nudging past, you're basically marking them out a little fat.

How far you nudge the tail board depends on the hardness of the wood(s) being dovetailed.

Re: pins first

#43

It did for me

John in NM

And that even though I too cut the tails first. Mickey is fine company if you do this once every couple years! :D

Re: pins first

#44

Re: It did for me

Charlie

Somewhere along the line he probably saw somebody shining a flashlight between the tails to mark out the pins.

Ducking and running....

Re: pins first

#45

I understood

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I was just quoting Frid on the Mickey Mouse thing..

I understood you were quoting Frid. I find it annoying when for humor an expert puts down some product of technique with a phrase in lieu of providing facts to support a position. These people are usually old and set in their ways.

Re: pins first

#46

Re: I understood

Charlie

He went on to explain why, but my sense is that I would be wasting my time explaining his explanation. I believe the video is still available.

Whatever cantankerousness he exhibited late in life (he died from Alzheimer's) I think he earned. He was not a young man when he made the video. But that's just my opinion only. I've always been an unapologetic fan of Frid's.

Re: pins first

#47

Nah....

John in NM

He was probably just getting a dig in at some other old timer turned author :D

Re: pins first

#48

I'm going to split hairs...

John in NM

And man is it easier with a freshly unicorned chisel! :D

Cantankerousness in anyone isn't earned, its tolerated.

With people like Frid the incentive to tolerate it is obvious - they have a lifetime of skills and experience and if you put up with the grumping you can learn a lot very quickly rather than re-making a lot of the mistakes from which they learned.

If you want to say that tolerance of his cantankerousness was earned, then I will heartily agree.

Re: pins first

#49

First thing I learned...

David Weaver

.... was a sharpening video. In the video (which was the first thing I'd seen, and thus I figured the presenter knew what's up), an obvious dig was made that using jigs was the way to go and that a competitor wouldn't allow it.

If there's something to teach, then there's something for people to disagree on and then there's fans.

I'm thankful Frid and Cosman, et. al, didn't make chisels from files or it would be impossible to do it in peace.

Re: pins first

#50

wonderful conclusion

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Ditto for arrogance. I have been associated with people of exceptional technical brilliance that were easy to tolerate. When they spoke with arrogant confidence in their field it was deserved. And then there are the others.

Personally, I liked Frid's teaching but not the furniture he made.

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