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Ah

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

Funny; I guess I don't think of him as modern, although I probably should. I've never been entirely clear where the line is between "modern" and "not modern."

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Re: You're right! Enough of this pussyfooting!

Leo Cuellar

It's all good, David! I love it when you get wound up

"Taste really does need to enter the discussion at some point. Lately, I'm seeing more and more pens with turgid tumorous bulges and bulbous bloatings—where even the most restrained look like conjoined somethings a dog squeezed out."

Amen brother!

I have a lot to learn on that subject (taste) though!

I do have a rather nice pen that a friend's father made for me. It is made from some Sumac that I gave him. Literally a poison pen!

I hope you are having a great day.

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Re: Ah

CStanford

I can't stand "X", really hate it, except for eight or so exceptions I'll enumerate below, with some to be determined later depending on how the debate goes.

Must have been a slow night don't you think?

Since you like metal lathes too...

John in NM

A friend of mine has one of these (pic isn't of his though):

I love the speedometer

I should have talked him out of his Hardinge when he got the Rivett, back when he was in a tiny shop space I could have gotten it cheap. Now he's in a bigger space and can afford to keep machines just because he likes looking at them. Kind of like farmers and pickup trucks

I wish I had a picture....

John in NM

Of a high school shop project of mine. A horrible lamp table with a turned spindle for the lamp. We all had to make them, and being amazingly bored with the project I went a bit nuts when I got to the spindle. It would give you nightmares, every single tired bit of turning kitsch worked into a single spindle

When we moved to AZ it got left behind at the summer place. A few years later the buyer of that house burned it down as a training project for the volunteer fire dept. - that being much cheaper and more entertaining for all concerned than hiring a bulldozer. We can only hope that lamp went up with the house

I still have a lathe, a PM90 I paid about $300 for. I rarely make turned components though, I think I exhausted my taste for turning on that lamp

The scary thing (little rambly)

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

"Of a high school shop project of mine. A horrible lamp table with a turned spindle for the lamp. We all had to make them, and being amazingly bored with the project I went a bit nuts when I got to the spindle. It would give you nightmares, every single tired bit of turning kitsch worked into a single spindle "

Back in my wage slave days, I spent a period traveling to Long Beach, CA regularly to struggle over the new computing system the state universities were adopting. Someone steered me to the hotel that Everyone Was Staying In. Pretty high rates, which bothered me even though I was getting reimbursed. But the furniture in the rooms...well, hotel/motel furniture tends toward tasteless, but that place showed that there's a stage beyond tasteless. I think I know where your lamp wound up, John. Not in my room; I had something that looked like it was put together right before the project was due and spray painted silver. But in one of the rooms.

Next trip, I found the Marriott, a little farther away but with lower rates, a better free breakfast, and furniture that, while not prize-winning, at least was inoffensive.

Out back....

John in NM

That hotel probably also has a workbench of mine. It was a mis-conceived design, though not too bad in execution. Never finished making drawers and installing them either.

After I'd used it for a bit, read some books, and perused the then new to me internet, I realized the error of my ways and also received a decent bench as a gift (the one I still use). So not wanting perfectly good flat space to go to waste, I gave my monstrosity of a bench away to a friend who had stuff piled everywhere on the floor.

Years elapsed, I forgot all about some of my early woodworking sins, and even convinced myself I was now (and thus had always been) a pretty decent builder. And then that damn bench turned up again.

It had changed hands again, at least once, and now surfaced in the shop of a friend of mine who was subletting a bit of space. Man did my reputation drop a few notches around there when I walked in and foolishly admitted to knowing the provenance of that bench!

I should have bought it from that phantom woodworker (guy never came by much to use his rented space) and hauled it out in the alley to burn it. I know one day it will come back to haunt me again (this time I will pretend not to recognize it though!)

Re: Nothing new though...

TomD

These ideas have been around as long as I can remember. Richard Raffan also talked about this. He claimed all (most?) wood turns black eventually, and all you have is form. I think it is sorta like furniture in general, where the skill side is moeso in the old stuff. I love Bill Jone's work, as far as seeing some serious skill at a professional level.

I use turned pens, but I am not sure most of them even come up to the level of a Bic 4 colour. There is a whole pen thing, with magazines, making pens is high art, but the wood turning shop pens don't really succeed on any level, mechanically, hand appeal, or art. Which is why it is amazing when someone actually pulls it off. Occasionally one sees a surprise.

Re: Sir William throws down–——the gauntlet

TomD

I probably agree with just about all that, except the thesis sentence. I used to skip over those, and roung back to sort them out when working on my Philosophy degree. Normally the words go somewhere else after the exercise, and here you are right on almost everything except the main point. Of course woodworker should have lathes.

Yeah, if they don't want on, I am not going to force it on them, that is basically silly as it applies to everything in this space.

"Round in woodworking is wildly overrated and too often just a cheap gimmick, a production convenience and an aesthetic cop out which has produced more objects of questionable taste and worth than any other single weapon in the woodworker's arsenal. Round is mostly an excuse for owning a lathe and turning things."

Well obviously this is some kind of mishmash, what it the perspective? In the real world what is wrong with a production convenience? Are we talking art school here, or a serious cabinet shop, or a historic shop. There was a time when every woman had to do a certain amount of spinning for the greater good of the economy in England, not to mention to be clothed, is it silly to have the means to make real stuff? Carts, knobs, handles, etc...I think we don't have enough of that. I think it is more remarkable how good so much of the old turning was. There are a lot of ways of botching pieces with and axe or a lather. Good work stands out. Also today these trite shapes are all over the place, and often in worse form than off a lathe. Injection molding is not kind.

"• Windsor chairs—there are those who will argue that some Windsor chairs are beautiful. They are wrong."

I am not a Windsor nut, but I have seen many that are beautiful and other forms like cribs. I think economics and comfort, such as it was led, but when something is necessary it becomes beautiful in the hands of a master.

"• Other chairs with turned elements"

I am trying to love mid-century modern legs just for practice, so far not much success. I keep working on it. Since it fits my biography.

"• Turned table legs that look like turned table legs"

FWW had a coffee table with a shelf, I used the leg on a single level table, and it is a beautiful leg. A discerning eye can see how I advanced the shape as I turned each leg... It just is a nice leg, so it shows what is possible. And one advantage is that unlike a straight leg it tuck up against a wall better, as it does not foul the moldings. I think a practical advatage like that speaks to good design, and it looks nice.

"• Turned chair and cabinet legs and feet

• Baby cribs with turned elements

• Pepper mills that look like table legs"

I think you are just letting the fact that it could be cheap, and it could be a shortcut push you into sloppy generalizations.

"• Wood pens made from kits, especially those that look like pinch-waist surgical aids or bottle stoppers that resemble morticians' orifice plugs

• Almost everything labelled "project supplies" that are little more than excuses for turners to use lathes."

Good call, but kitsch is sometimes useful.

"• Round features on most staircases and railings."

That is just silly, short of aircraft wire, this is what it is, and some of it is very well done.

I don't hate all—

"• Wooden bowls. If you're a bowl turner—if you like to turn bowls—by all means buy a lathe. Round wooden bowls are vastly overrrated but easier to make on a lathe than not."

Are you talking difficulty? I think most turners know that. Most of the serious ones I know, what to have their own style which is a significant challenge, and quite a few get there. The whole vessel as fine art thing is probably only recognized by turners, but then that applies to almost all woodwork. The biggest names in our pantheon are barely footnotes in most design texts.

"• Round canes—although there are other forms and shapes that I also like"

There are certain products, a lot, that require a round shape, like arrows shafts in most cases, or spars. It is what the loads demand, no point in getting all worked up over it.

"• Turned smoking pipes—although these are usually better turned on machine lathes"

I doubt the latter, unless you are referring to speed, with wood, you can do it all freehand, faster and better. I do think that every woodworker should have a metal lathe though.

I like some—

"• Turned pipe shapes

• Round pipe tampers"

Is there a smoker in the house? Next you will say you like round toilet paper rolls...

"• Pool cues"

Let me guess, you are not against round balls, either...

"So with the possible exceptions of tool handles and maybe some wooden knobs—both which can be made without a lathe—"

Right, and china should still move most of it's goods with wheelbarrows...

"barring the need to compulsively turn things to fulfill whatever self-indulgent desires, artistic notions or aspirations and barring so-called necessities borne of bad taste, no—not every woodworker needs a lathe. Some may. Just not every."

True, hammer and nail first, a few tools, then a lathe. Limited only by one's imagination...

"I have one—a small metalworking lathe, though—not a woodworking lathe."

Yeah, woodworkers should get one of those with thread cutting capability first. Then you can make everything else, including the brute simple wood lathe.

Re: The 800-lb Philistine primate in the room

TomD

"Now, now—just because I choose not to make bowls and spindles galore doesn't mean I can't, and doesn't mean I can't do so with a restrained yet tasteful appreciation for form and a practised technique. Just because I choose not to play Lizst does not mean I can't."

At what level. I can't speak chinese, I really can't, but I am sure I could. That is different from say my dad who can play anything including Lizst, but he might not choose to. He can't play rock, his head would explode.

If you are just saying you mastered it then walked away, well that describes most wood turners sooner or later. Or possibly they land slide away on an unstable pile of bowls. People who have never tried, probably lack the money or the guts. Woodturning goes both ways, you can make stuff, but it is also like surfing a wave with big bits of bowl occasionally flying by; lots of chainsaw work; and unsupported cuts on the bandsaw. I suppose people get places on their surfboards, but one probably has to suspect the person who says they gave up big wave surfing because it didn't take them physically to places they needed to go, like say the market.

"As to who I am—I'm still finding that out, for better or worse—mostly worse."

We feel the same way about the whole thing. I do wonder at times when that stopped being a private matter, you know, taste and all.

Re: Concrete

TomD

I did at one point try and hustle Oneway into making a metal turning attachment for their lathe. They didn't bite, probably because they realize that a metal lathe that can't cut threads is stupid (though there were some such lathes made for lines where thread cutting would not be something every lathe would do, secondary operation lathes). You can equip a woodworking lathe with an X/Y milling table, and instant metal lathe, no threads.

The auction sites are full of good lathes for 500 sometimes they come with 1K of accessories. They cut threads. Making one's own is crazy. Buying a metal lathe and making a wood one is both possible, and in some cases would be smart.

If you are interested in the whole concrete thing. You might look at the CNCzone site. Huge site. One of the most massive threads... anywhere, is on plastic granite, or synthetic granite, or something. It is a syntactic stone that is made by combining a range of aggregates with epoxy. Seems to be a miracle material, combining strength, castability, and levelability, vibe kill, etc...

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Re: Aside from..

David Weaver

.... some very tastefully done high quality accents to pieces, like finials on fine work, turning really is the nascar of the woodworking world.

Especially with what it's generally become, smash and gouge to a dull finish and then fill the air with sanding dust.

Re: Sir William throws down–——the gauntlet

CStanford

Clissett, Gimson?

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Re: Keep me informed on the concrete bed lathe

Patrick Gibbons

I remember reading something on the Internet about making a lathe out of concrete because it is an inexpensive way to make an effective lathe. Evidently this was done in WWI as a quick and cheap way to make artillery shells.

Re: very nice...

David Weaver

... now with the nascar accusation, I guess we had better stay out of that section of the site. Not that either of us was probably much of a threat to go there to talk about turning wood.

In defense of the lathe

Patrick Gibbons

First I would like to remind one and all that turning is an activity that is justified by the Diety. It is written in the Bible, "To everything turn, turn, turn. There is a season turn, turn, turn. And a time for everything under heaven." I know it's true. It was written in a song. The ancient Egyptian word that was used to describe the master pyramid builder translates literally as the master lathe turner. This word was borrowed into the ancient Hebrew to describe Solomon's master Temple builder. As Henry Adams details in his work, St Michel et Chartres, the realized form that was the Cathedral of the High Middle Ages was the product of the labor of the turners and would not have come to fruition without the development of the treadle lathe. Frederick Jackson Turner's thesis on the importance of the frontier in the development of the American character would be mere words without the contribution of American lathe development. Indeed Enlightenment philosophy concerning the Natural Man was formulated in great part on the turners guilds rules of assembly. Lastly studies done at the prestigious Bob Jones University have concluded that turners have contributed no less than 2% of GDP to the post Soviet breakup economy of Lithuania and positing a model of sustainable economic growth. Clearly every woodworker, indeed, every American household should have and use a lathe.

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Re: Sir William throws down–——the gauntlet

William Duffield

Do you "need" a lathe?

Last night at a meeting of the CJWA, one of our members gave a presentation on round shapes in furniture making. His woodworking career has been long and varied, but now he builds boxes, exquisite boxes, strongly influenced by classic Chinese furniture forms.

Some of his work, including a recent series of boxes titled "Spending Time", can be seen here: kandi boxes. These boxes feature round legs, but they're not. They're ovoid, shaped by hand from square stock, with entasis, and about a degree of splay at the bottoms. His explanations of why and how were enlightening.

One of his most important influences is the book, Chinese Domestic Furniture, by Gustav Ecke. You can obtain a copy of the paperback Dover reprint from Tools for Working Wood.

Ecke

Or, find it at Amazon, and "Look Inside" for examples of many round shapes, that aren't, and some incredible joinery.

Under the title of "Craftsmanship - Ornament - Dating" on page XL of the introduction, Ecke makes the following definitive statements:

"We too have so far endeavored to draw attention to the excellence of earlier Chinese cabinet-work, to its costly simplicity and the perfection of its finish. May we now add, or repeat, a few points worth remembering.

"No wooden pins, unless absolutely necessary; no glue, where it may be avoided; no turning wheresoever -- these are three fundamental rules of the Chinese cabinet-maker."

Ecke goes on to say:

"The turning lathe was, and still is, despised as unworthy of a skilled worker. Most of the rounded members are more or less ovoid in section. Even today such bars and uprights are worked by eye and hand out of the log, the tool being a simple drawing knife similar to the old-fashioned Western spoke-shave."

I really like Steve's boxes, and his philosophy. You can read some of it on his website. His presentations are always fascinating. He doesn't have a lathe.

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For a minute....

John in NM

I thought you were aluding to a a Spin-Pik