Upgrading chisels

Re: I tried my best Pam......

ThomD

>It takes a lot of practice to get comfortable choping from the handles. I first got proficient off the bevels. It started to bether me I couldn't use the handles, as some others do, so I gave up holding them at the bevels. It also bugged me getting hand oil on the chisels with every touch since that can lead to rust in a bad moment.

Re: Upgrading skills

ThomD

>"Admittedly lacking in experience with Japanese chisels, I find the requirement to "bash" a new expensive tools handle to make it properly functional mildly distastefull. :-)JR "

That's fair, and some handle materials really don't seem up to it. Some hammers will blow ends like that totally away. I had very bad luck with those little bronze carver mallet things. It's not as though these handles have never complicated things for me, particularly since I made the mistake of getitng Ebony handles...

But overall, it's woodwork. The assumption is people know what they are doing, and can do it with some efficiency, aren't completly frightened of a little work, vs. that the tool should come fully equipt to make up for a lack of skill on the part of the user. Like a thread further up where someone noted that a particular brand of plane didn't come honed. As though meat should only be sold pre-seasoned in TV diners. How the heck is the plane maker supposed to know what I want to use a stock plane for?

I guess when I buy a better tool I am hoping to follow it to a higher level of skill, rather than just hoping that it will somehow make me a better woodworker due to some higher qualities in the tool. The paint kits with the numbers don't guarantee the greatest personal growth.

Re: Problem with used/old vintage chisels

ThomD

>May not apply here, but some of the chisels have lengthwise radiuses, and are not intended to be flat. I've seen it on Slicks and timber chisels. I haven't seen it on cabinet chisels.

I wrote a review of the Ashley Iles. *LINK*

Ed Snow

>It is in the articles section. I wouldn't modify the review to say but I would like to say;

I can't remember the last time I had to pare an 1/8" out a a dovetail (that must mean I am getting better)

And the brass ferrule has slipped off two of my chisels but it is an easy fix to put back on just hit it with the end of a drift to make a new dimple.

Other than that, I love them. One of my best tool purchases as far as quality and amount of use they recieve.


Ashley Iles bench chisel review.

Lengthwise radius?

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>Around here that`s known as rocker.

It`s there on a slick so you can climb out of a cut in a tight place.Slicks are also sharpened with a camber so they`re easier to steer in a cut.A slick is an incredibly useful tool once you get you mind around how it was traditionally used.

I hear folks being steered away from old chisels that are either concave or convex along thier length.I`ve had alot of luck bending most of that out and if I resort to a belt sander at all it`s only to remove either dents or heavy pitting.

Could be the older chisels were alittle more forgiving of abuse than what we get today.Judging by the gorilla hammer marks and mushroomed sides on some of the ones I`ve rescued I`d say a modern chisel(like a Marples,Sorby or a current Stanley)would have ended up in at least 2 or more pieces.

Mainely,Bob

Contingency plan

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>Just keep it fired up!

Then again I may be selling urban thieves short.

A friend detailed to gaurd several pallets of C-rations had them stolen while he and a buddy slept on top of them.They woke up on the bare dock.The "slicky boys" in Asian ports can be quite creative.

MB

Re: Contingency plan

John in NM

>It was more to keep people from getting burned, as that alley was a kind of highway of seedy characters and kids skipping school. The only theft I recall was a sort of art table my friend had made, and he was really pleased that someone considered it worth stealing. Next best thing to imitation on the flattery scale.

Re: Upgrading skills

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Yeah "it's just woodwork"...I agree with the statement. And if the chisel is a $7.50 Bahco or a $10.00 Footprint I would and have modified them. My issue is with the whole crafted by master metalsmith kits that cost more than some other tools. If the toolmaking in Japan is so compartmentalized that a truly superior metal component is mated with a do it yourself chunk of wood the final cost including the purchasers labor seems out of line. JR

Re: Upgrading skills

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I might have agreed with you before I watched Yataiki forge a laminated blade. It takes a lot of work and expertise. I now consider Japanese hand made blades and tools real bargains.

Pam

Re: Upgrading skills

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Watching a skilled craftsman is truly rewarding on a number of different levels. Just seeing something done with nearly no wasted motion...JR

Re: Upgrading skills

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Indeed. I'm from that long line of software developers who cluster around someone else's screen when s/he's having problems, "helping." Was always our favorite task. :)

Pam

Re: Upgrading skills

ThomD

>The typical US fee for that kind fo work possibly made by a guy with just a few years experience, no long standing name or tradition, is about $100 an inch. Japanese tools are incredibly cheap. And goodness knows what they really get for their work. Since the early 80s the US dollar has been hugely devalued against the yen, and the prices remained pretty stable.

Re: Upgrading chisels

ThomD

>"I also know that there is something about Japanese chisels and about many users of Japanese chisels that doesn't have anything to do with their performance in cabinetmaking, and that to me seems to be totally beyond any attempt at rational analysis."

There is some truth to this. We all go through life hoping to have our prejudices comfrimed somehow. There is a kind of person who will instantly see th point to Birkenstock sandles or Juicing, and it defies rational analysis, at least any additional analysis. The flip side to that is that people are repelled for the same kinds of irrational reasons. Overall these opinions are should be ignored if you are looking for the truth of the mater.

There are an abundant number of very serious practitioners who have chosen Japanese tools including american workers in factory settings like guitar factories, or individuals working in their shops. It's ridiculous, most of the time, to suggest there is a necesarry superiority to Japanese tools that shows up in the work, but if you know anything about tool making and blacksmithing there does appear to be superiority in the tools. The are a lot of otherwise hard nosed Bubba type blacksmith who are enthraled with the Japanese art because it stands out.

"OTOH, the design, materials and manufacturing choices made by TLN translate directly and logically into superior performance in their use for joining fine hardwoods into fine furniture."

I agree with you 100%... except in their basic choice of the model of tools to emulate. They clearly chose the Stanley/Bailey simply because it was popular. Every choice they made in improving those planes is a solid choice, but the planes themselves are nuts. They are the off-ramp to power tools, and the bast@rd child of industrialization. I can't think of a single feature that makes them a superior tool "for joining fine hardwoods into fine furniture". LN rocks though.

Re: Upgrading skills

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I know that if I were capable of making the quality of Japanese blades, I'd want at least $300 per.

Pam

Re: Adam's thin Chisel

ThomD

>On my To Do list is a razor thin chisel. I have seen these a few times in stuff like the FWW methods of work collumn. The idea is that the chisel is so thin one can puch it half way through with one tap, at least for standard dovetails. Matched with the fine stock one finds in old furniture, it would seem to take a lot of the drudgery out of woodworking.

Re: Agree

ThomD

>That's a bit like saying nobody could charge X (whatever incremental price) for making something out of wood because first you have to consider the cost of a 7 year apprenticeship, next about 40 grand in tools...

There are lots of guys with forges who could do a heat treat for you. You can do it with a regular propane torch if you use a fire brick. If you sub-contract to a heat treater then you are just a middle man.

The original question

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>Adam wondered if anyone was interested in reworking factory made chisels into great tools. My comments were directed at the business end; i.e. the costs of doing a 1,000 to 10,000 lot. The project seemed to be unwise for a business since the resulting reworked chisels would have to retail for about $100 each. Of course, anyone could rework a set in his backyard for much less--but that was not the issue.

Re: Upgrading chisels

Todd Stock

>I'd say L-N, Clico, LV, etc. chose the designs because they worked well, were affordable for working people, and did not require extraordinary care or extensive preparation to put them into service. There were better tools for specific tasks, but none that offered the working carpenter or cabinetmaker the combination of function, affordability, and ease of maintenance that Stanley and others brought to the market.

In any case, the question is whether most woodworkers can avail themselves of the extra juju that a high end tool might provide. My observation is that most woodworkers won't get much more out of a set of $500 chisels than from a $20 set - primarily because the project and materials seldom require it, but also because of limitations on ability to sharpen and set up tools.

Re: I wrote a review of the Ashley Iles.

David

>Do you use them with a mallet... or just for paring?

Re: I wrote a review of the Ashley Iles.

Ed Snow

>I use a mallet on some of them most of the time. I rarely ever break out anything else. They are not that great a chisel for chopping but they are a great joinery tool. Now, my methods for cutting joinery involves removing as much of the waste as I can as fast as I can be it drill but or fret saw. So my mallet and chisel work never really exceeds about 3/16" of waste removal.

Re: I wonder if the best answer is...

Phil Albany,NY

>Maybe I'm lucky where I live but in the last month I've seen 750's with original handles and leather washers selling for 20 each. That's less than half the price of the LN ones. I agree that the prices on ebay do seem to be going up though.

Phil