Upgrading chisels

Re: Upgrading chisels

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Kelby,

I don't have much experience with the Japanese chisels so I can't comment on them.

The LN chisels are quite nice, very light, durable handle and the shape of sides allow you to dovetail without bruising the tails. Oh yeah, they are also A2 steel which tends to hold an edge longer then O1.

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: Upgrading chisels

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Your first problem with getting a really useful reply is finding an objective user who has and uses both a set of the L-Ns and the Japanese chisels you are interested in.

It took me a bit of "research" to find the particular chisels you are interested in on the JapanWoodworker website. When I found them, there were two significant disadvantages I immediately noticed vs. the L-Ns.

First, they have ferrous striking rings, with unforgiving, sharp edges. These will play havoc with your mallet. The hophornbeam handles on the L-Ns will dent, but not split and splinter, the striking surface of a competent wooden mallet. OTOH, a metal headed mallet, although it will not spit or splinter the L-N handles, is unnecessary. A hard, dense hardwood mallet drives them competently. I like the control and feedback I get with a hardwood mallet much better than a steel hammer.

Second, the geometry of the L-Ns, in particular the very low sides of the blades, makes them much more competent at trimming and paring dovetails. That's why bench chisels are supposed to be beveled on the back side, but only Lie-Nielsen seems to "get it." There are a few "special purpose" Japanese dovetail chisels that work correctly, but every one of the L-Ns works well, without modification, as shipped from the Toolworks, because the sides have been ground down to almost, but not quite, zero height.

Although FWW says these Japanese chisels are well balanced, I qaestion their analysis. The striking ring looks like it would make them top heavy, although not nearly as top heavy as the bluechips. I find the Lie-Nielsens to really be perfectly balanced.

If you are looking for a chisel that will hold the edge only a little longer than the bluechips, forget about the L-Ns. They far exceed your requirement :^J

If you plan to use them for paring, pushing them by hand, as opposed to striking them with a mallet, you will find the L-N handles much better designed and more comfortable for this purpose than either the bluechips or the Matsumuras.

Thanks, Dan and William!

Kelby

>William, I feel like I should have paid tuition for all that information!

I have been thrilled with all of the Lie-Nielsen tools I have owned, so it's no surprise to hear the great reviews on their chisels. The one thing that appealed to me about the Japanese chisels in particular is the fact that they are hand-made. That doesn't necessarily mean they are better, but I like to support craftsmen whenever possible. (I love my Steve Knight planes.) But William makes several good points about the chisels, particularly about the comfort issue. I will be anxious to hear comments from Japanese chisel owners about the comfort issue.

Perhaps

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>buy one of each in 1/2" size or whatever you prefer and decide yourself. There are lots of Japanese chisels which are at par or exceeds LN chisels in quality and performance, though ultimate selection is upon what you do with them and personal preferance shaped by many different factors.

PS: There are also many Japanese chisels which are not that good at all. Grizzly's Japanese chisels are the first that come to my mind.

Chico...

Re: Upgrading chisels

ThomD

>Neither of those concerns are all that serious. The rings set below the level of the handle, so they won't harm you mallet, though the chisels are designed for use with hammers. I use a rubber mallet for most dovetails, it doesn't care what the handle is made of and is quiet.

The side angle grind issue is totally overblown. 1) you can get any angle you want in a japanese chisel, or at least degree of relief, and you can griind them yourself if you want, though it may well be a fair cop on your chosen model; 2) Most people overlook the fact that the saw kerf provides a significant degree of access for even squarish sidea. the angle you care about isn't the angle of the cut, but the angle from the edge of the waste to the outside of the kerf, which is not as tight depending on the saw you use. And there are technical dodges too.

I think the main issues are personal preference, no accounting for how something falls to your hand; sharpening preferences; the way you like to work with particular reference to your reliance on prying; Any links to a particular cultural tradition; The kinds of work you need to do, like the dovetail example, but there are other examples deep mortices; Desire to collect artistic tools.

Japanese chisels are to my way of thinking the absolute top of the pinacle as far as quality and features, but there is a subtle disconnect to western ways of working. The reality is it's mostly the cabinetmaker. When I used to do demos I would take 300 dollar chisels and 3 dollar chisels, you couldn't tell the joints appart from the chisels that made them. The experience of cutting them with different chisels did vary.

Re: Upgrading chisels *LINK*

Rob Millard

>I have been extremely satisfied with the Japanese Chisels I purchased at Woodcraft. They were very inexpensive, but take and hold an incredible edge. I also have a LN chisel, and it is a fine tool. It is double the price of the Japanese chisel, but not double the quality. I can�t explain it, but the A-2 steel of which I am an advocate for plane blades, doesn�t seem to perform as well in chisels.

Rob Millard


http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

Sound advice....and some more of it

bill tindall

>The choices you mentioned are "apples and oranges". There are some very good makers of furniture that use each. So clearly it is a very personal choice with no right or wrong answer. It follows that trying one of each will enable you to make the best choice. I will make you a bet that if you have one of each there will be occasions where you will prefer one to the other, and vica versa.

More factors to look for:

I am going to speculate on the properties of the LN based on the steel they use. I have no personal experience with these chisels, dissuaded by price.

Indeed A2 is tougher than the carbon steels used in the Japanese chisels and this would be desirable, but the A2 is probably not made as hard, which is less desirable. The better wear resistance of A2 is not a significant factor in a chisel. the way a chisel is used they get dull by chipping and bending (typically), not abrasion. You will not bend the edge of a Japanese chisel, but you may chip it. The opposite will more often be the case for A2. For dovetail chopping the tall "English Pattern" gives me hand cramps, while the short Japanese style "feels good" and has better control. The bulky Japanese pattern is hand-friendly for wrapping your hand around the beveled end and nibbling away at something. I liked this feature so much that I made some bulky chisels just for nibbling. But for traditional pareing the dinky Japanese handles are less hand-friendly if not hostile. I think the LN handles look comfy, but traditional pareing is the only time I ever hold the handle of a chisel. I hit chisels with a hard rubber mallet, or dead blow for mortises, as I don't like the clunk of wood on wood, so any handle can last equivalent.

My experience with L-Ns so far

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

>A few months ago I did the very same thing. I upgraded from Marples and decided to go with L-N chisels. I must say that I agree with William's information. I myself have been very happy with the L-N's and they have indeed performed superior to the Marples.

As William pointed out, the grind on the side edges is different and I learned that the hard way. Be careful how you hold them lest you cut your hand on the edges! A cautionary word of advice.

Of course I'm sure you'll keep your Marples like I have for more "crude" tasks. Still good chisels.

Tommy

I wonder if the best answer is...

john jesseph

>Buy both, just as above. I have some LN chisels, one of the first 100 sets. I am torn between keeping them and selling them, mostly because I have too many chisels. I have been tempted to buy one or two Japanese chisels for comparison, just don't know what I should buy in the 40-70 dollar range...

Re: Upgrading chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>William, I can't believe it's you saying that the Japanese chisels "look" poorly balanced. The Japanese chisels, as a group, are, at a minimum, as well balanced as any western chisel. I don't think working at Woodcraft has necessarily been a good influence on you.

Second, Japanese hoops, which do not appear on paring chisels, are set below the ends and it's intended that the wooden ends will be bashed over to cover the hoops. And even with the hoops, I have no problems paring with them on the odd occasion since there's little force that needs be exerted to get them to cut.

Pam

Re: I wonder if the best answer is...

Phil Albany,NY

>May I offer a third option? I hope I'm not out of line here. How about buying neither? Have you considered looking for some cast steel Witherby's or the like for a fraction of the money on the used tool express that passes everyone's stop 4 times daily? There is a glut of great Stanley 720's and 750's and the like too if you really like the feel of the LN chisels. While they're not A2 steel, which I'm still not completely sold on, they are of outstanding quality. Don't get me wrong, LN and other offerings are great but how much extra are you paying for any improvement, if any improvement exists.

Phil

How dare is he...?

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>When I read Bill's post, you Pam, came to my mind. It was no coincidence... I know.

Anyway, "no fuel to the fire" is intented here. I was chuckling as I was reading the post. I said to myself: "It's past her bedtime, but she'll be back with a vengeance!

;-)

Chico...

Re: I wonder if the best answer is...

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I have a 720 1" size that I added to my LN set to round it out. I can't tell the difference in wear.They both seem to dull after the same use.It's a little shorter and the steel isn't as shiny but I wouldn't mind having a full set of 720's.However,I have heard that the quality of steel in these is variable.Get some used chisels of different styles and try them out. See what you like.---Jack

Re: Upgrading chisels

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Admittedly lacking in experience with Japanese chisels, I find the requirement to "bash" a new expensive tools handle to make it properly functional mildly distastefull. :-)JR

Re: Really Upgrading chisels!

Adam Cherubini

>We often focus on edge holding, but there's a lot more to chisels than that. I think handle shapes should be factored it. Also, I think there's an advantage in having chisels in standard sizes if you buy standard stock and have other standard tools. I have a set of Hirsch chisels which all the wrong size.

I also am liking thinner chisels more and more. The standard beveled stanley style chisels feel like steel punches to me. I think you should open your choices to include Pfeil, Illes, Hirsch and others like that.

Here's an idea for you: I think we should talk someone like Thom or one of the others here into UPGRADING off the shelf chisels into killers. Sorby makes a decent chisel, but they are too soft. It would be easy to reharden these puppies. Toolsforworkingwood.com could offer a service for "special edition" tools.

I think someone should try thing outside the box. I keep thinking it would be nice to find a smith willing to reproduce my old chisels. Nobody wants to do it. Maybe I've got the wrong idea. The steel is already out there and relatively cheap. Technically (as we recently discussed) you could reduce the grain size during the rehardening process. You could anneal first and regrind the chisels thinner, reshape them etc etc. All of this would be a lot easier than forging new tools. I'd be surprised if anyone even partially competant with metal working would charge more than $10/chisel. I would think you could do many many at once. Clearly there's a market for $50 chisels. No one can reliably supply old chisels to users who want "out of the box" performance. Why not mod new ones?

Adam

Re: I wonder if the best answer is...

john jesseph

>Yes, that is a reasonable thought- not a direct answer to the original post though, so I didn't mention that. I have a bunch of old Stanleys, and other brands including Pexto, Chas Buck, Witherby, etc, full set of Marples Hibernia etc. It's a real PIA to flatten some of them, and I'd say looking in to new chisels is a great option to avoid that and get into woodworking. Depends on what you want to do with your time, how perfect you want them, and how cheap the old ones are.

I finally broke down and bought a steel plate and some diamond paste, and that seemed to speed things up a bit.

Probably will still buy a Japanese chisel or two...

Re: Really Upgrading chisels!

john jesseph

>Good thoughts. On the long to-do list...

Re: Really Upgrading chisels!

joel -( tools for working wood)

>"Here's an idea for you: I think we should talk someone like Thom or one of the others here into UPGRADING off the shelf chisels into killers. Sorby makes a decent chisel, but they are too soft. It would be easy to reharden these puppies. Toolsforworkingwood.com could offer a service for "special edition" tools."

it's an interesting idea but where do you expect us to do this? We are in Manhatten. What do we do start up a foring temperature fire in the boiler in the basement or in garbage can in front of the building?

Re: Upgrading chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>In fact, some Japanese chisels come with the bashing already done for you; but this is a major difference between handmade tools and machine made, even with some hand finishing. The assumption that Japanese toolmakers take is that each woodworker may want to form the fold over differently. Similarly with Japanese planes, so far as I know there's not a one that comes ready to use, they're all kits. The wooden dai must acclimate to your shop for a few weeks, then you tune it.

Also, the Japanese still separate their work load by skill. The dai/handle maker is just that. The blacksmith does mostly forging. And so on. In the case of chisel handles, usually the retailer fits them, based on customer desire.

Now I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't require any skill to tune a plane or fold over the end of a chisel handle; although it doesn't require much skill to prepare a chisel. When I was starting with hand tools it was very important that the tool come ready to use, the LN 62 was the first plane I was able to make work properly. When I got my first Japanese plane, I was befuddled, the sole wasn't flat and the blade was too tight a fit; but rather than giving up and designating it a bad purchase, I studied books and took a dai making class. I gained the skills necessary. So now I can not only tune dai, I can make them. Need a 47� bedding angle for a particular wood? I can make it in a couple of hours (yes, I keep dai blanks in stock), no special ordering and waiting months are necessary.

Pam

Re: How dare is he...?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, I had planned to stay out of this one, except perhaps to suggest that Kelby search the archives for previous discussions, as I've said pretty much all I have to say about Japanese tools, I'm at the point of boring myself and can only imagine how boring it must be for all of you when I respond same old same old to the same old questions. As I read this, I expected Sir Wm to respond that LN chisels are the bee's knees, but I didn't expect him to trash the balance of Japanese chisels since he doesn't use Japanese chisels.

No offense intended, Kelby, but this question has been beat to death, in my less than humble opinion.

Pam

Re: Upgrading chisels

dennis mcdonaugh

>I think the difference between LN or another premium western chisel and a Japanese chisel is more than edge holding or ergonomics. Japanese chisels are just a different breed and you have to like using them. Some people do and some don't. I always recommend buying one of what ever it is your are considering and trying it for awhile before springing for a set. This is especially important if the tool in question is different than what you are currently using.

Re: How dare is he...?

Todd Stock

>Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...oops...same old argument again? Wake me up if anything new is said.

Problem with used/old vintage chisels

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Is that you have to be careful when you buy them the blade is not convex as they are a pain to flatten unless you are comfy with a grinder and removing small amounts of steel.

This is hit and miss. I have some old Anton Berg chisels which are great but I have a couple that do not pare well unless you lift the handle.

New LN's and I would suspect Jap chisels to be ground intentionally convex or close to dead flat right from the factory.

Dan Clermont

Re: Really Upgrading chisels!

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>"We often focus on edge holding, but there's a lot more to chisels than that. I think handle shapes should be factored it. Also, I also am liking thinner chisels more and more. The standard beveled stanley style chisels feel like steel punches to me."

Hi Adam

I absolutely agree with you. I have been replacing the handles on chisels for a while now, turning them to suit my grip. I find that I like a long, thin handle with a thin blade for paring. Such as my retreaded Bergs below:

In general, Bergs are simply wonderful for their thin blades which impart a delicate feel when you work with them, and I am seriously thinking of desecrating others with new handles. I also have several Witherbys. They have terrific steel but this is too thick, and so I tend to use them for less delicate work.

Bergs and Witherbys

Regards from Perth

Derek