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Upgrading chisels

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Re: Upgrading chisels

#26

True costs of doing business--long

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>Steel is relatively cheap...

Maybe it is where you live, but my steel prices have gone through the roof lately.

$10 per chisel...

Only if one could find workmen who charge $1 per day.

TRUE COSTS

High carbon flat ground steel is $10 for a stick 1/8x1/4x36. Carbide milling cutters start at $10 and most good ones are $50. Inserts for fly cutters are priced accordingly. Heat treaters charge $75 to $125 a batch. Journeymen metal workers are $40/hr if you count benefits. Real estate and machinery not included in that cost. Taxes and insurance. Engineering and testing. RC testers (used) are around $250. Add this all up and your reworked chisel is closer to $150. Makes the LNs look like real bargains. Sorry to rain on your parade, but manufacturing business costs $$$. Inexpensive goods are based on volume products (which reworked chisels are not).

Re: Upgrading chisels

#27

Re: Upgrading chisels

Tony Zaffuto

>Pam,

In a related, yet unrelated question: I have a Japanses dovetail style chisel, can't remember blue or white steel, but it holds an edge as well as anything I have. Had fun setting the top ring, actually and use the little (5/8") beast a lot. Question, what is your take on using Japanese plane hammers? I don't like a large mallet (have one, don't use it muchly). I mostly use a Craftsman hammer with a hard nylon face on one side and rubber face on the other. Size would be similar to the Japanese plane hammer. Seriously thinking of upgrading in this way, plus another chisel. Got a Japanese damascus knife that takes and holds an edge better than any tool I've got.

Thanks,

Tony Z.

Re: Upgrading chisels

#28

Re: Upgrading chisels

Kelby

>Thank you everyone!

I will buy one of each and see how they feel. Very good advise.

Re: Upgrading chisels

#29

Re: True costs of doing business--long

Adam Cherubini

>I think you misread me.

I'm not talking about making chisels. I'm talking about heating a store bought chisel with a mapp gas torch.

I have a small forge built out of a paint can, fired with mapp gas tanks. I could probably reharden 10-20 chisels in an hour. At $10/chisel for the service, that's a whole heck of a lot of money somebody could make part time with $100 worth of equipment. Removing and reinstalling the handle is the hardest part.

Re: Upgrading chisels

#30

Agree

Frank D. in Montreal

>I originally balked at LN prices and decided to make a set of my own out of A2. I even loosely based some of them on Adam's chisels. Great, I thought, I won't have to spend over $300 for a set. Granted, I did make 13 instead of 5, but my materials and heat treating alone were over $300. I do have some A2 left, but I really don't know when I'll want to make enough chisels or blades in one shot to make it worth doing again. I'm not even counting my time here. I'm very slow but still, making chisels, even regrinding, is considerable work. I can't regrind a whole chisel in 10 minutes or even 25 if I do it carefully (I don't have milling equipment nor the space to keep it). Heat treating is no mystery but it is an art, and if you want to do more than the tip of a chisel (I'm talking O1 here) you need a forge. If I threw in my time for everything (buying steel, going to the heat treaters, making handles, buying and setting ferrules, cutting grinding, finishing the handles, polishing, flattening...) at 20 bucks an hour I'd certainly be close to the price of a high-end Japanese set. I still think it was worth it for the skills and chisel design history I learned but it's certainly not economical.

Re: Upgrading chisels

#31

Re: True costs of doing business--long

Ernie Miller

>Didn't Doug and Ben jsut go thru this?

Re: Upgrading chisels

#32

OK...OK...

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>Let's not go there... I was just disturbing poop for fun for a change! ;-)

Chico... (hiding..)

Re: Upgrading chisels

#33

Re: Upgrading chisels

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Give us a report on what you find when you are done

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: Upgrading chisels

#34

I tried my best Pam......

bill tindall

>I tried my best to stand in for you on this one, while trying to remain balanced, but you can't keep a good woman down on a serious issue like this. I love my Japanese and homemade Japanese look-alikes for some things and that spindly handle is a pain for others ( in my Manly hands, snicker). I have the same objection to the spindly handles on Japanese saws.

If I had infinite wealth I would have a set of each, reaching for the LN every time I wanted to grasp the handle and the Japaese style everytime I wanted to grasp the steel.

Am I the only one that gets hand cramps chopping with a tall, long-handled chisel, or do I have a defect in how I hold it (which is right at the bevel)?

Re: Upgrading chisels

#35

Re: OK...OK...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You know, just yesterday I had to clean some poop out of Bounder's tail. I've done things that were more fun. :)

Pam

Re: Upgrading chisels

#36

Re: I tried my best Pam......

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You did fine, Bill. Since I have girly hands (snicker right back at you), I love the paring chisel handles.

Yeah, infinite wealth would be interesting. Of course then I'd have to spend more time on keeping said wealth than using tools. :)

I prefer shorter rather than longer chisels, not being infinitely tall. One of these days, when you find yourself near Boston, you should check out the really short chisels Hiraide carries. For mortising I usually hold the handle.

Pam

Re: Upgrading chisels

#37

Re: Upgrading chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>To me the weight is more important than the size. Which hammer/mallet I use depends on the plane and the task. For example, if I'm simply adjusting a blade in a Japanese dai, a 1 pounder is fine. For the HNT Gordons, a tiny wooden mallet works better (you can see this on their site). But if I'm making a new dai or tuning a dai, I use a 2 lb bocote mallet, which isn't huge in size at all, very dense wood. Inamoto-san often uses a dai blank for this so he won't munge the blade or dai.

The 1 pounder is also very useful for chopping mortises.

I've just started playing with Japanese style knifes, one for making small adjustments and the other for carving. Really cool.

Pam

Re: Upgrading chisels

#38

Re: Problem with used/old vintage chisels

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>Hi Dan,

Belt sander works great to flatten chisel & plane blade backs as well as plane soles up to #6 on 6"x48" stationary belt sander.

Chico...

Re: Upgrading chisels

#39

Re: Upgrading chisels

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>What does working at Woodcraft have to do with the issue? Woodcraft carries Japanese chisels, Barr chisels, Marples Blue Chips, Lie-Nielsens, Pfeils, and some other brands and patterns as well. I haven't even seen any Lie-Nielsen chisels in the New Castle store since I started working there, nor have I sold any. There is no way I would attempt to demonstrate the use of a Japanese chisel right off the shelf, because I know that any difference between my preferences and those of the customer for setting the ring or honing the edge might make the chisel unclean or somehoworother unsuitable for sale. I also know that there is something about Japanese chisels and about many users of Japanese chisels that doesn't have anything to do with their performance in cabinetmaking, and that to me seems to be totally beyond any attempt at rational analysis. OTOH, the design, materials and manufacturing choices made by TLN translate directly and logically into superior performance in their use for joining fine hardwoods into fine furniture.

I would be unconcerned about the effects of taking a L-N or even a Marples for that matter, off the shelf, showing a customer how to quickly hone the edge, chop a dovetail with it, and put it back on the shelf, undamaged. I might have to rehone the Marples after the demo, but that is almost a non-issue.

The issue I have is only that the heavy, rough iron ring puts additional weight and an obviously comfortable shape at the top of the handle that would not be necessary if a superior wood, allowing a more ergonomic shape, were used for the handles.

Note that Thomas strongly advises choosing the hophornbeam handles, as opposed to the rosewood, if you are planning to hit the handles with a hammer. The plastic handles of the Marples, in spite of their other disadvantages, are also almost indestructible.

Re: Upgrading chisels

#40

Re: A friend and I once had a plan...

John in NM

>to set up a forge in his alley. We were going to weld together a big, hollow pile of rusted scrap to cover it and put it on casters to roll over the forge when not in use (it would blend in with the other big piles of rusted scrap in his alley). Probably just as well we never got past the "wouldn't it be cool" stage. Maybe you could disguise it as a hot dog cart.

John

(expert in un-executable ideas)

Re: Upgrading chisels

#41

Re: I tried my best Pam...... *LINK*

Paul M. in San Diego

>Hi Bill,

I agree that the tiny Japanese chisels disappear in my large mitts. My hands cramp trying to hold onto these tiny handles.

But I love the overall balance and the quality of steel on these chisels. I bought a set of the "Firmer" Matsumura chisels available from JWW. These are considered giant timber-framing chisels for small Japanese hands, but work as bench chisels for my large European hands. I love these chisels.

I brought my chisels to a Kazuro Kai event in San Diego last year. One of the masters was looking around for chisels to use on a project. I handed him mine. He looked very approvingly at these. I was really glad that I had just sharpened them well the night before.

So there are options if you have generous hands. Western chisels aren't the only answer to this one.


these be the ones...

Re: Upgrading chisels

#42

Re: Upgrading chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>What does working at Woodcraft have to do with the issue?

Well, it was sort of a joke, a complete non-sequitor, somewhat simiilar to claiming that Japanese chisels are unbalanced based on not using them.

Pam

Re: Upgrading chisels

#43

Re: A friend and I once had a plan...

Joel

>A hot dog cart?

what do you do when someone walks up and wants to buy a hotdog???

give them a red hot peice of steel???

or junk the tool business and make a living selling hot dogs?

(A good hot dog is a wonderfull thing)

joel

Re: Upgrading chisels

#44

Re: Upgrading chisels

Frank D. in Montreal

>Sir William,

Is the shape of Japanese handles really due to a shortcoming of the wood? The Japanese mostly use red or white oak, and from what I am told their oaks are have tighter grain and are more resistant to splitting and splintering than our North American oaks. I thought the handle design came from tradition more than anything else, kind of like German pattern bench chisels which also use a hoop (and which also have their own distinctive form that I don't like as much) but which are nonetheless made with very tough woods.

Re: Upgrading chisels

#45

Re: Problem with used/old vintage chisels

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Good idea Chico.

I have a large belt sander at work and a lunch hour

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: Upgrading chisels

#46

Re: A friend and I once had a plan...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Actually, Joel, if you own the cart(s), hot dog vendoring is quite a business in the right place. On Cape Cod, the vendors would work for 4 or 5 months a year and vacation for the remainder. I think it could be a pretty good retirement business, assuming the vendor license is reasonably priced.

Pam

Re: Upgrading chisels

#47

Re: A friend and I once had a plan...

Joel

>Pam,

I would most certainly own the cart, and the nearest competition is at least 70 feet away. Then of course there are the middle eastern guys on 21st street who used to be better and of course the stand in the park which specializes in hot dogs.

But I think I would make a handy dollar selling to the guys coming out of the strip club across the street from 7:00 PM on, the customers leaving Talis (the big bookbinding club in the same building as the strip club along with the pistol range which should be a source of good customers) during the day. But I think the big money is going to be from the guys leaving the bathhouse in my building - 24 hours a day (it mever closes). When will we ever have time to heat treat anything or for that matter sell a few tools??

(and if you have ever visited my shop you know everything I'm saying is 100% accurate).

Re: Upgrading chisels

#48

I vote for the garbage can in front

Bill Houghton, raining and raining, Sebastopol, CA

>freak out those businessfolk.

Oh, you probably weren't taking a survey, were you? That was, like, a joke?

Re: Upgrading chisels

#49

Re: A friend and I once had a plan...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hot dogs are phallic symbols, so I guess the strip club would be good; although I can't remember being hungry after drinking beer and eating snacks for a couple of hours.

We'd heat treat and sell tools the other 7 months of the year, or in my case do woodworking, the other 7 months of the year.

Sorry to say I've never visited your shop, didn't even know of you before I moved to Texas.

Pam

Re: Upgrading chisels

#50

Re: I wonder if the best answer is...

Vijay

>Have you looked at the price of these Stanleys lately on the bay--for what they are selling for you could buy new LNs

Now if you have a set of 750s or the like that you would sell for a reasonable price I woudl jump on it.

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