Help choosing a plane

Re: I think there's at least one other

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Bill,

I would venture to guess that most of us have more then we need.

When I first starting playing with handtools it started out with a record #5 with plastic knob and tote from LV and scary sharp. I taught myself how to flatten a sole, flatten the back of plane blades/chisels using scary sharp.

Next thing you know, I have a Bailey #4, then a Bedrock 604.5 followed by a Spier's, then a Bevel Up jack/smoother, then a LN 5.5

Do ya think I can part with any of the above even though I rarely use them? Not unless I really need the cash.

I can't say I have allot of planes but I do have some pretty expensive smoothers considering many are happy with the old Bailey type 4's like "Warren in Lancaster" mentioned in a thread down below.

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: I think there's at least one other

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yes, but knowing you have more than you need and not buying a tasty morsel are two completely different things. I've always enjoyed new toys, but to use, not collect, whether for photography, sports, woodworking. I don't think it's all that conspicuous, hardly anyone knows.

Pam

Re: Why does reading this thread get my blood boil

Dave Thompson

>Hi Denis, I see a lot of questions in here directed at my post, so I'll jump in with a response. Been offline for a few days due to long power outages from recent tornados in the area...

First off, I didn't see anyone diss'ing an LV62 in this thread. It certainly wasn't me, as I've never even held an LV62, and in general hold LV in high regard. I did make some comments about a #62 style plane recommendation, which I'll stand by based on my personal experience with an LN#62.

Jeff asked about getting ONE bench plane, not ten... As such, versatility of the chosen plane ranks high on the want list.

This was Derek's comment in support of an LV62 recommendation. I don't accept this as a realistic premise. No one buys one bench plane unless it's for carpentry or just not serious about using it. The investment of necessary workbench, knowledge and necessary sharpening tools to really use a bench plane makes this notion totally unrealistic. Too much financial and temporal momentum... Ofcourse, I am an admitted plane-o-holic, so my views might be skewed ;-) If one isn't serious about using it, then why bother with an expensive #62 style, when a $20 pre-war jack is so easy to obtain... or just get a fine $5 Dunlap for that matter....

Someone mentioned the relative scarcity of the original Stanley #62 as an indicator that this plane design wasn't popular for a reason, inferring that the Veritas is in the same league. Anyone with an internet connection can find out that the Stanley 62 weighed in at 3 5/8 lbs. (Blood & Gore), whereas the Veritas LAJ comes in at a hair below 6 lbs. We're talking quite different animals here...

I think that someone would be me from my "BU again?? no way" response. I think the weight had zero to do with it. #62 is a jack of all trades, master of none.... well, actually, I do think it is a very fine chute plane, and probably the best out there for end grain butcher blocks. I still stand by my assertion that the relative scarcity may be an indication of how favorable a BU jack was back then amongst a much larger plane user population. You might use this argument against me though if you bring up the even more scarce #85, #212, #164, #602, all of which I am a big fan of. Though I would counter they need to be compared in their relative class.

Another mentioned that the LAJ (and other jacks by extension) is "too long for smoothing, too short for jointing". That one leaves me puzzled. Unless one is planing a "rollercoaster" board, sole length is in most cases not much relevant.

I believe this is another quote from my post... I suggest you try using your jack size plane for smoothing and also edge jointing for a a couple of projects. I have a high level of confidence that you'll have the same opinion. If you already have been doing this, then I would suggest comparing this to a smoother for smoothing, and a jointer for jointing. Depending on the length of your stock, a short jointer is going to reduce your chances of producing a straight edge. Regarding the smoothing, one is trying to just take off gossamer shavings... If one has a long smoother, there is absolutely no room for even the slightest of stock warpage and still keep that blade pulling off gossamer shavings, i.e. the kind of warpage one might see over a couple of day period by just allowing the wood to sit untouched in one's shop acclimating to humidity changes.

All of this wouldn't matter much if the plane didn't perform, but the fact is that the LAJ works as well if not better than the other planes out there. Add to this the fact that it is substantially less expensive than the other high quality offerings, making the LAJ the absolute no-brainer

It's size excells as a jack plane, hence the name. A jack plane is primarily for surface jointing. This operation requires the least precision (except perhaps scrub), than anything else one does for stock preparation. Gnerally speaking, a fine LAJ is overkill as a jack plane. For just about everything else (bar chute and butcher block), there is something better.

As mentioned in my earlier note, I'm not sure what one uses the adjustable mouth for, unless one is switching between smoothing and jack functionality. While it's nicely implemented in #62 style planes, it's advantage is lost on me from lack of use.

Denis, again, don't confuse my dissagreement with a #62 recommendation for a beginner for anything against the fine Canadian firm LV. Quite the contrary. I think LV's new heavy #164 is one of the most personally exciting mass produced innovations to happen in the plane world in this last half century. I'm also excited to have an option to buy an affordable block plane tail and chamfer guide. I own several other LV products and am happy with them all.

My only dis on LV is their apparant lack of care regarding the non-functional cosmetics. I think they make the ugliest totes in the plane world, and... really how much extra does a brass lever cap add to the cost? It would look so nice contrasted with the black paint and brown wood. ;-) Cosmetics... who cares right? It's just how it performs right? Tell that to Hotley, Bridge city, LN, Sauer, Marcow, etc. A professional wouldn't care, but this is primarily a hobbiest market. And while I'm on this silly rant, I'm still disappointed that Rob Lee didn't go through with his plan of calling the LV 3.25W, the LV Pi plane which they were considering because 3.14 more accurately reflected it's final size.

enjoy,

Dave

Absolute best solution to too many tools

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>Show your brothers and friends the virtues of handtools,I GUARANTEE this will cure any excess tool problems and fears of collecting too much.

The only problems I have now are how to hang on to my personal tool stash during visits and how to fill the requests on the ever growing list of "needs" on the fridge.Seems everyone but me(including neighbors) lives in "old tool hell".

I finally had to draw the line when old tools purchased"from away" started landing at my door to be sharpened/fettled.Now only my blood relatives get that service,though I prefer to have them bring them personally and we do the work "together".Usually I do the work while they chase the kids around uncle Bob`s playroom/shop.;^)

Mainely,Bob-Who`s still looking for a good way to remove rust stains from good clothes.

Re: Why does reading this thread get my blood boil

Paul Kierstead

>Regarding aesthetics:

A professional wouldn't care, but this is primarily a hobbiest market.

You know, I am not so sure. I care about how pleasant looking my tools are in my profession, I don't see why a professional woodworker may not care the same. It makes the day a little easier and more pleasant.

Re: Why does reading this thread get my blood boil

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>I do care what my tools look like. I believe that companies that put time and effort into the fit and finish of a tool take great pride in the finished product.

Look at Karl Holtey, Wayne Anderson and Konrad Sauer.

One reason I choose to use LN planes is cause I like the totes although I do wish they made rosewood standard on the bench planes as I think it is prettier then cherry.

LV uses Cocobolo which is a favourite wood of mine but I find the totes uncomfy and from the BU planes that I have held and used they seem to have ridges along the tote. Not sure how these totes are made but it looks like a chattering router bit. Not trying to offend LV just wasn't very impressed with the finish and think they could make them without the ridges.

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: Why does reading this thread get my blood boil

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Dan,

Not to be a hair splitter but I think LV uses bubinga. The way a tool looks is important for me too. I think that's one thing that many 19th and early 20th-century tool makers were very conscious of. Look at those European planes from the middle ages...definitely not meant for hobbyists, many were intricate sculptures, real works of art, albeit made by the users and not by companies. Japanese sumitsubos... It's what I call the human element in a tool, the fact that the tool maker has recognized me as more than just a pair of hands.

Re: Why does reading this thread get my blood boil

Dave Thompson

>Regarding aesthetics:

[Dave]A professional wouldn't care, but this is primarily a hobbiest market.

You know, I am not so sure. I care about how pleasant looking my tools are in my profession, I don't see why a professional woodworker may not care the same. It makes the day a little easier and more pleasant

Yes, sweeping generalization like that on a group I interact with rarely, I probably should avoid. ;-) I won't argue with you there.

enjoy,

Dave

Thanks for correcting me Frank ;)

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>

Tool aesthetics...

Dave Thompson

>Glad to hear I'm not alone. I like my tools to look good too. I take the time to polish the manganese bronze caps and bodies every winter on my LN's. No one sees them except myself. When I recently picked up a white bronze LN102, the first thing I did was sandpaper lap the manufacturing scratches out of the sides, so the luster matched that of the buffed iron cap. It was alot of work and of course, doesn't do anything for function but makes a much nicer looking tool.

Using nice looking, well functioning hand tools is part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me. It's part of what draws my interest to the neander side.

enjoy,

Dave

Re: Tool aesthetics...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I do like nice looking tools, no question; but looks take a back seat to feel and function. If a tool feels right and helps me perform a task with ease, I like that tool, I get emotionally attached to that tool, it makes me feel good to use it.

Pam

Good clothes?

Bill Houghton, raining and raining, Sebastopol, CA

>There's a saying that cats are God's way of telling you not to care so much about the furniture.

Tools and shops are, similarly, God's way of telling you not to be so fussy about your clothing.

Varying mileage

Bill Houghton, raining and raining, Sebastopol, CA

>My son and I don't think a pickup truck is truly a pickup truck until it's been bashed around a little. I prefer my tools to look like they've had use.

Ah, the marvelous differences amongst us!

Re: Tool aesthetics...

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>I am with you Dave! I spend time every year polishing all of my planes removing rust, polishing the bronze and waxing them up.

If I see rust on any of my planes I take care of it right away.

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: Varying mileage

Paul Kierstead

>But, the thing is, you still have an image you think it should meet; it is not purely function. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but most beholders still desire it.

Re: Good clothes?

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>I was refering to the problems I have getting the rust stains out of the pocket areas of my "best" jeans after stopping off at a garage sale on the way back from going out for breakfast.I know I`m not the only one who puts rusty chisels,etc.in my back pocket while I fish out the cash.

I`m also assuming I`m not the only one who can`t wait to get home,run to the shop,and use the deburring wheel to see if that maker`s mark really is what I thought it was.Most times it`s only after the fact that I remember I have the "good" pants on.CRS strikes again!

Mainely,Bob

PS-This usually only happens during the summer when the visiting relative`s wardrobe far exceedes the usual downeast mode of dress.

I had been calling them "summer clothes",but it confused the wife.She thought it meant the light weight beach stuff and I was refering to the fact that as far as my clothes went "Summ`er better than others"(but not by much).;^)

Re: All together now, "the best next plane....

Dennis McDonaugh

>And you are certainly entitled to that opinion even though others may disagree, which I do. I have been using a hand plane since my dad took me to work with him in the early sixties. He taught me to sharpen and set a hand plane blade so it would cut without clogging and then leave it alone until it needs sharpening again. Granted, that was carpenter work, but I have followed the same technique ever since. I have a few more planes now, but one of the things I've found to be true is that if I set the cut of the blade and the mouth opening together, I get a good surface and no clogging. If you continually clog your mouth, then your blade set is too coarse for the mouth opening of your plane. BTW, I'd recommend a regular block plane for a beginner. They are cheaper and pretty easy to use without being fussy. The new user can get a feel for planes without making the learning curve too steep. Oops, I guess that would be a BU plane after all.....

Re: I'm so proud of myself!

Jerry Nicholson

>This thread is like the Energizer bunny- it just keeps going and going..

Jerry