Help choosing a plane

Re: Who said...

C.R. Miller

>I'd have to agree that the low angle BU planes are quite limiting. On the one hand they're too long to use as a violinmakers finger plane and nowhere near long enough for a cooper's jointer. Plus they're no good for plowing, beading or dados.

Apart from that they're quite good.

I agree with (the other) Derek

Derek

>I have a number of planes and use my LV Jack all the time.

Ach... the angst. I have TOO MANY TOOLS.

David Barnett - SW Florida

>I suppose commenting on tool fetishism in two threads this week speaks to my personal tool acquisition attitudes, trending sharply to downsizing and dispersal as you and I discussed in last week's chat. I seem to do quite well with ever less and have begun to feel quite silly when I select the same few tools for just about everything I do. I truly enjoy using my main squeezes as much as before, but have no urge to pick up anything but the same jack, jointer, or smoother just about every time. So many bench planes. So very many moulders. What was I thinking?

I actually believe endless WC posts over the years about tool choices, recent gloats, and excitement over the latest LN and LV offerings has finally jaded me. Obviously, fine tools interest me, but that burning desire for always more has apparently passed. I no longer drool at infills, lust over matched sets of carcase and tenon saws. Is it ennui? Long-term depression? Maturity? Who knows. I love handtools no less than before and I'm more comfortable and facile with them than ever -- I can now cut DT's with just about any saw within reason -- I dunno. One thing's for certain, the more I think about design the less I think about tools. I can leaf through entire tool catalogs and find nothing I really need or want; something I never thought could happen. The nail in the coffin was the LV magnetic tool-belt. What timing! I could just imagine dragging its weight endlessly like some tool-obsessed Jacob Marley. Am I ready for the knacker?

Re: Ach... the angst. I have TOO MANY TOOLS.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There appear to be three solutions to conspicuous consumerism of tools:

1. run out of money

2. displace the buying for one activity to another, which does allow you to continue consuming like crazy, really no solution at all in general

3. get tired, perhaps temporary

I suspect the apparently typical end-of-the-century obsession with money (all those guys competing with Gates have finally given up hope of beating him, as those competing with Rockefeller did) and buying things is finally winding down a bit.

BTW, I think most people buying tools are better at buying only what they need than those like you and I. :)

Pam

Yeah, that pretty much covers it.

David Barnett - SW Florida

>Well, I've never run out of money on tools... yet, so it's not number 1, but number 2 gets a bullet, esp. when you consider my rather mercurial predilections to mixed media and multiple crafts. Displacement's a cinch. Sounds like I've hit number 3 head on. Yep, could be temporary, all right. I can foresee getting jonesed about bigger kilns and more glass frit, I suppose. Woodworking, though... more wood's possible, esp. as I'm thinking about new benches for metalsmithing.

The only tools I've bought recently: one of those cheap HF drill presses for $39.95, which is far better than I expected; quiet, no vibration, adequate motor, runout as good as my 14" Delta. It's perfect for stuff I wouldn't bother to do on my big DP -- also a 1" linisher and a pile of Norton and 3M belts for everything from rough grinding iron to shaping handtools to sharpening to slack belting fine silver (how I lived without one of these for so long I do not know). For the first time in ages, though, I opted for the Delta rather than Wilton which was over three times as expensive (and not much beefier or smoother running). So that was different.

ROFLMAO!!!

Paul Kierstead

>Great stuff :)

PS: I actually like the LAJ (well, the LN-version, but the LV version seems as good or better), I just think sliced bread is still more innovative. Well, ok, I actually make my own bread and slice it myself, so that doesn't work. I don't think it is the second coming. Wait, I lack religion. Alright, I give up.

Re: BU Fanboy-ism

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>What on earth are you doing? Why are you constant changing the mouth opening and changing the bevel angle? Do you plane wood for projects, or just because it is there?

...

Mouth openings and bevel angles do *NOT* have to be constantly adjusted, and although it may be nice to make it easier, it doesn't make a big difference.

Oh, little things, like clearing the mouth of jammed shavings. (I don't suppose any of us do that, except in testing though...

Oh, and remember, the basis of this thread was one plane to do as much as it can. So chaning bevel angles happens pretty often as I change from project to project, wood to wood, task to task.

And what do you mean is more newbie-friendly? Why? Just because you assert it is so? That doesn't make anysense.

Well, since TLN says it's so, it generally seems like there's probably some sense to the idea. At least I'm not the only looney thinking it might be less intimidating.

As far as a 'touchup', if that is all you need a couple of quick swipes free hand does the trick quite nicely and saves the time of putting it in a jig, a much better savings then the 2 seconds with a screwdriver or quarter it takes to remove a cap iron.

Ah, so now we'll add free-hand sharpening to the list of tasks that newbies come with, eh?

And you conviently ignore the double bevel issues of adding a back bevel to a bevel down design. Free-hand or not, adding one more bevel isn't trivial. And the number of newbies that already know how to do back-bevels - or even about them - or to do them by hand...well that's a pretty dang small number isn't it?

Call it what ever you choose. However, it's clear to me and many others that if one were starting fresh, the Bevel-up design would be the most cost effective addition to a plane collection. IMO, I can (and have) accomplished a vast majority of all my wood-working with a very small number of planes. I couldn't have nearly as easily done so with a #5.

If you want to call me a fan-boy, I'll just take to calling you a "bevel down bench bigot." :)

Cheers,

Greg

You still don't get it.

Paul Kierstead

>I like, use and own BU planes. You will note I do not make claims about the superiority BD planes, nor the weaknesses of BU planes.

I do not believe back bevels are necessary in 99% of the cases (and the 1% can be handled with scrapers, sandpaper, or other means), so there was no point in talking about it. Nor to I believe that frequent mouth adjustments are necessary. I will grant that some people work differently; I wish some of you would grant us the same.

If you could only afford one shoe...

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>I bet that Bulgarian police shoe would start lookin` a whole lot better.;^)

Mainely,Bob-Who`d buy Redwings or Chippewas if he could afford it.

PS-I did pick up a second hand pair of French hiking boots at the thrift store for $2 awhile back.Does that qualify as a gloat?

PPS-I believe the boots were low angle,and formerly owned by a guy named Jack.

Well said, but any shoe in EEEEEE's fine for me.

David Barnett - SW Florida

>Nope, no pointy-toed Italian shoes or cowboy boots for me. 'round here the 'roaches run for the corners.

I'm so proud of myself!

Jeff Weaver

>In my short woodworking career, this thread may be the biggest thing I've made!

Wow. I'm glad you guys are scattered from here to yonder, and not cooped up in one room together!

Thanks for your enthusiasm,

Jeff

Re: You still don't get it.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>I certainly do get it.

You may not work the same as me, or anyone else.

However, in your case, the situation is a draw at best.

In mine, where I often use bevels higher than 50 degrees, as well as 37 and 50, it clearly is superior.

Again, clearing a jammed mouth. Perhaps you never do this. Again it's a draw. I DO, so it's clearly not.

So, if we add up all the draws and all the cases where LABU excels, in my working conditions, it simply blows the others away.

Even TLN says...

"The single most useful tool is a low angle block plane. We have several, and any of them would be used every day in the shop. Next, I would consider our Low Angle Jack Plane. It is a very versatile tool, and in many peoples hands it can double as a smoothing plane. I t is also a unique tool with no other equivalent. With those two tools you can do a lot of work. Third, I might like a dedicated Smoothing Plane."

Finally, let me quote Lyn

(From here: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?noframes;read=77907)

-Quote-

"I agree bevel up planes may be good for new plane-users."

Let me answer this on a personal level. If tomorrow my shop burned down and all my planes were lost (hey, it has happened once before), the first four planes I would buy are the L-N LA Adjustable Mouth Block Plane (which of course is a BU plane) and the L-V BU family of Smoother, Jack and Jointer.

-Quote-

So, a guy who's had or used extensivly most every high end plane imaginable, both bevel up and bevel down. And he says, of all the bench planes available out there, he'd pick THREE bevel up varieties first?

Sure, you're welcome to yours. I have no problem with it. I'm sure TLN will be busy for a bazillion years producing bevel down stuff for those convinced that they perform better, and are worth the extra cost and hassle of using - and that's all well and good.

But you haven't come up with a single case where the Bevel Down is better. You simply keep coming up with reasons why, for you, the differences are equal.

For the fellow at the root of this thread however, the differences are likely to be huge and without a doubt to me, the BU versions will "blow everything else away."

I have no problem continuing to say it, cause it's true.

Obviously we simply have to agree to disagree, but IMO, you've not put up a single reason that these reasonings we've talked about don't apply to the guy who started this thread.

* He isn't going to free-hand sharpen.

* If he wants to do tough grain stuff, then the handplane is probably the only way it'll get done, cause sandpaper simply isn't going to cut it on 3/16"+ deep tear-out from the lunchbox planer. Neither will sandpaper or the card scraper - at least not in any reasonable time. So having the ability to go above 50 degrees is probably a requirement. Doing this with back-bevels isn't going to be quick or easy - at least compared to bevel up.

*End grain. Well, the higher the angle, the more force. More force equals more tear out when the end-grain isn't supported.

*Clearing the mouth when using it mostly closed is a whole lot easier in any bevel up vs. bevel down.

*Since it's the only plane, going from hogging off material to the final few swipes is just a second or two from start to finish. Clearly the advantage is bevel up.

I could go on, but I won't...

Have a nice day.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: You still don't get it.

Paul Kierstead

>If you had read what I wrote I clearly stated that I did not propose that BD had any advantages. In fact, I don't propose that either plane is superior or inferior in any way.

I don't understand why you're clearing the mouth so often; it should be very rare that you need to.

I will agree with you, that for you it blows other planes away.

Your Contradicting Yourself

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Greg,

You have been telling people on this forum that a tight mouth cannot remove tearout. So why is the mouth on your plane jamming? Open it and let your blade do the work.

You complicate the bevel up designs by over-engineering bevel angles.

My offer still stands on a piece of QS Sycamore or any other wood you feel needs to be planed at 65 degrees. Send it to me Greg.

Dan Clermont

Re: I'm so proud of myself!

Jerry Nicholson

>We could probably make this thread even longer by throwing in Mac vs PC, Ford Vs Chevy, Nikon vs Canon, RPN vs algebraic (calculators), or, if there are enough old geezers around, K&E vs Post (slide rules).

Or maybe we shouldn't!

Jerry

K&E vs Post? Hemmi leaves them in the dust!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I never thought of myself as an old geezer, guess it's creeping up on me...

DC

Middle age is when a broad mind and narrow waist exchange places

Re: I'm so proud of myself!

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Their will bever be a clear answer to a question like this.

I have an old Bedrock 604.5 which I love to death and it is my favourite plane however when someomen asks me which which plane I would keep I would pick the one which guarantees the best results and that isn't my fave 604.5

Good Luck

Dan Clermont

Re: :)

Paul Kierstead

>But I like my grit set in the paper at a low angle. Ain't no shame in sandpaper. I'll admit I have worked hard to eliminate most sanding cause I hate the dust (and the work), but a final swipe or two by hand is easy, provides nice looking results and raises little dust.

Re: You still don't get it.

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Greg, I think my experience contradicts some of your notions about planes. I have used a Bailey type smoother since 1973. I have never used a back bevel. Here is some history of my experience.

1975. Last time I had any problems with clogging.

1976. Last time I used a bevel up plane.

1977. Last time I had any problems with tearout and last use of a scraper on a planed surface.

1978 Last use of sandpaper on a planed surface.

As you can see, I didn't learn to use it overnight. I now use the smoother so unconsciously that it would take perhaps two years of daily use to compare another type of plane. But I must say that the problems with the Bailey plane that you enumerate seem somewhat fanciful.

Warren?

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Did you tune your Bailey's to get a tearout free surface or did it have more to do with simply learning how to sharpen well, place a chipbreaker and tighten the mouth.

I agree, standard Bailey or Bedrock style planes can do nice work and have for a long time without increasing bevel angles to 65 degrees.

Also believe companies like C& W and Steve Knight make planes which perform exceptionally well without going to 65 degrees

Dan Clermont

Re: K&E vs Post? Hemmi leaves them in the dust!

Jerry Nicholson

>I just pulled the old Post out of the drawer and it says "Hemmi Bamboo - Japan" on the edge. Does this mean Post is Hemmi? Must have been good stuff, it still looks pretty much like new and I bought it almost 52 years ago.

Jerry

Re: K&E vs Post? Hemmi leaves them in the dust!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I was joking about Hemmi, I don't know how they rate compare to other brands.

I got mine 31 years ago as my sister's boyfriend at the time bought one of those newfangled scientific calculators (TI SR-50). Although I learned to use the rule at the time, I never got to use it in school.

DC

Who still has a TI-59 (with the printer and an extra module) stashed somewhere in the house

tuning planes

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I wouldn't call my planes highly tuned, but I did work on them. The tuning I did was in response to problems I was having or observations I made. I think advice on tuning is valuable, but people who follow a checklist for tuning don't always get a feel for how the adjustments are actually helping the planing. I don't use a very tight mouth.

Re: K&E vs Post? Hemmi leaves them in the dust!

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Who still has a TI-59 (with the printer and an extra module) stashed somewhere in the house

It's likely, but who knows in what box. Jack used to get a kick programming it.

Pam

I think there's at least one other

Bill Houghton, STILL raining, Sebastopol, CA

>which is learning that you don't need so much after all.

Now, I would like to argue that I've never been a conspicuous consumer of tools, but I do have more than I need. This last weekend, as my brother and I were down working on cleaning up our parents' house and I put two handsaws in the car, my brother asked if I had a sawset, so I could sharpen them. I had to admit that I have four or five (don't know exactly, but I haven't paid more than a dollar for any of them), and I'll admit here that I have yet to use any.

But I think I am learning. In the last couple of years, I've begun to get OK with letting some go...