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Help choosing a plane

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Re: Help choosing a plane

#26

Ctrl-Alt-Del Your Plane!

Paul Kierstead

>I don't see what is hard to reset about bevel up or bevel down. Seriously, a chipbreaker is easy to set, and the blade pretty easy too by sighting down the sole.

All this "much better" and "blows away" stuff is ridiculous. Differences, yes. Perhaps, for some uses or people, one or the other might be better. But this level of hype just makes it all sound like so much BS.

If a person can't manage to do good work on commonly occuring woodworking woods with a BD plane, they aren't gonna do it with a BU plane either, unless they are some kind of idiot savant who can only work if they can see the bevel.

Re: Help choosing a plane

#27

Re: Ctrl-Alt-Del Your Plane!

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Not to get too worked up about this, but how about discussing how much easier and quicker it is to change mouth size with bevel up vs. bevel down. (I'll even let you compare bedrock instead of a standard frog.)

Then, compare changing cut angles by switching irons, and if you're going to have more than one chip-breaker or not. (Or if you prefer, you can have multiple frogs.) (You might also compare which is cheaper...)

Next, how much quicker is it to remove your iron from the bevel down vs. bevel up and do a quick touch-up on sharpening it and then remount the chip-breaker and put it in the plane?

Oh, also, which would be easier...Mounting your bevel down blade twice in your jig to sharpen a precise back-bevel, or just once for bevel up to do the whole operation?

Next, how about comparing using your bevel down vs a bevel up in cuttting end grain, especially on softer woods?

When, and if you choose to do so, you'll find that frankly all of the above tasks are easier, quicker and for end grain on softer woods, actually works quite a lot better.

Oh, lastly, compare the two plane styles on price. Everything equal there? (Um, not so much...probably due to a higher level of complexity for bevel down designs with a frog.)

So, no, it's perfectly possible to do most everything on a traditional frog design, but it certainly isn't as easy to do quite a number of things, and it's far faster to do them on the bevel down variety. (At least the ones discussed in this thread.)

Finally, it's a whole lot less intimidating for newbies to use a bevel down plane - no doubt about it.

So, yup, it seems pretty clear they "blow traditional designs away," notwithstanding your complaints to the contrary.

But it's certainly no problem to me if you choose to keep your bevel down bench planes. I'm sure they work just fine. But many of us who have tried and found the bevel up designs simpler, cheaper and easier to use, all without sacrificing any performance, (nay - we find better performance overall) well, we find them to be pretty much the bees-knees.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Help choosing a plane

#28

OK, I'm on to you guys

Jeff Weaver

>Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up! I see now exactly what's going on here. You've gotten together and made a case for just about every plane I was considering. The result will be that this plane will be followed by another, and another, and another. I intend to print a copy of this thread for safekeeping. That way, when my wife can't walk through the house without tripping over handplanes, I'll have evidence it's not my fault. I'll be able to point and lay the blame squarely where it belongs.

Seriously, thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. I've read all your responses several times, and tried to give them all the thoughtful consideration you obviously gave when writing them. I will probably go (this time) with a jack plane just because more than half of you said so. I'll try to learn it and enjoy using it, and not sweat it too much if it's not exactly what I thought (this is all new to me, I don't know what to expect), because it seems inevitable there will be more to follow.

This is a great place.

Thanks,

Jeff

Re: Help choosing a plane

#29

Greg you Crack me up

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Have you 3ver seen a chipbreaker? Or had a chance to adjust one?

;)

Dan Clermont

Re: Help choosing a plane

#30

Jim DeLaney, Austintown, Ohio

Re: OK, I'm on to you guys

Jim DeLaney, Austintown, Ohio

>Well...

It all started when I needed to plane down a door...


img

Re: Help choosing a plane

#31

Re: Help choosing a plane

Deirdre Saoirse Moen

>Chris's article is in the Feb issue:

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/store/backissue.asp?issuedate=2/1/2006

Re: Help choosing a plane

#32

Re: OK, I'm on to you guys

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Jim,

How could you possibly get buy with "just" thuse planes ;)

All kidding aside. Very nice display and man you got enough planes already

;)

Dan Clermont

Re: Help choosing a plane

#33

Briefly seriously

Bill Houghton, STILL raining, Sebastopol, CA

>I think part of the issue, Jeff, is that, for any given hand tool operation, there are several ways of getting to the destination; and people have their preferences, based on various factors.

I'm reminded of the Chevy/Ford, Homelite/Mac arguments of my youth: both brands of cars get there, both brands of saw cut down trees. This doesn't mean there aren't bad designs, just that there are many useful ones.

Re: Help choosing a plane

#34

Regardless

Dan Donaldson

>of which plane you get, the main secret to any of them is to get them sharp;-) If you haven't done a lot of sharpening, learn to do that first and it will make your life a lot easier ;-) The only bad (?) thing is that when you see how well a nice, sharp, handplane works, you will need another and another and.......

Re: Help choosing a plane

#35

Re: BU Fanboy-ism

Paul Kierstead

>What on earth are you doing? Why are you constant changing the mouth opening and changing the bevel angle? Do you plane wood for projects, or just because it is there?

The advantages you are so heavily promoting don't offer that much in real-world use because outside of testing, most of us would prefer to spend time using the plane instead of adjusting it. Mouth openings and bevel angles do *NOT* have to be constantly adjusted, and although it may be nice to make it easier, it doesn't make a big difference.

And what do you mean is more newbie-friendly? Why? Just because you assert it is so? That doesn't make anysense.

As far as a 'touchup', if that is all you need a couple of quick swipes free hand does the trick quite nicely and saves the time of putting it in a jig, a much better savings then the 2 seconds with a screwdriver or quarter it takes to remove a cap iron.

I have nothing against BU planes (I like and use a LN low-angle jack plane often, not to mention numerous block planes), but the 'blows away' stuff is just flat out BU fanboy-ism.

Re: Help choosing a plane

#36

Jim DeLaney, Austintown, Ohio

Re: OK, I'm on to you guys

Jim DeLaney, Austintown, Ohio

>Actually, that's only 60 or so of them. I have about ten more (my every day users) on a shelf directly over my bench, and maybe six or seven of the 'more decorative' ones on shelves in the house. Always room for one or two more, though...

Jim D.

Re: Help choosing a plane

#37

Why does reading this thread get my blood boiling?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I read everything in here from "cast in concrete" old statements to name-calling to outright fallacies.

Jeff asked about getting ONE bench plane, not ten... As such, versatility of the chosen plane ranks high on the want list.

The Veritas LA jack is bar none the best in terms of adjustablilty of all the jack planes on the market.If you have ten (or more) planes in your arsenal chances are you will set the frog once and use that plane for one purpose only. If you buy only one plane and use it for many purposes, easy adjustability is most definitely welcome.

The Veritas LA jack is the most versatile of all the planes out there, including the other Veritas planes. Bevel down planes can be tweaked from the starting frog angle going up, through replacement frogs (if available) and/or back bevels on the blade. But bevel down planes CANNOT be brought down to a lower cutting angle, putting them at a disadvantage when doing end grain or shooting. Sure, one can work end grain with a BD plane, I've seen Rob Cosman plane end grain with the LN #8. But, between you and me, would you want to do a whole butcher block with a 45 degree angle plane? There's a reason why there are low angle planes for sale...

Someone mentioned the relative scarcity of the original Stanley #62 as an indicator that this plane design wasn't popular for a reason, inferring that the Veritas is in the same league. Anyone with an internet connection can find out that the Stanley 62 weighed in at 3 5/8 lbs. (Blood & Gore), whereas the Veritas LAJ comes in at a hair below 6 lbs. We're talking quite different animals here...

Another mentioned that the LAJ (and other jacks by extension) is "too long for smoothing, too short for jointing". That one leaves me puzzled. Unless one is planing a "rollercoaster" board, sole length is in most cases not much relevant. If there's a tricky grain area on a board that makes a jack too long, a standard smoother will probably be too long too. One would have to go down to block plane-length or less in order to work a localized area. When it comes to jointing, granted, longer is better, and in an ideal world one would have a range of planes, but again, we're talking ONE plane here, and the LAJ makes the best compromise possible.

All of this wouldn't matter much if the plane didn't perform, but the fact is that the LAJ works as well if not better than the other planes out there. Add to this the fact that it is substantially less expensive than the other high quality offerings, making the LAJ the absolute no-brainer. Add to this the ease with which shavings can be cleared (twist the knob, open the mouth, blow shavings, and return the mouth at exactly the same size as before), the least amount of slop in the adjuster, the setscrews that keep the blade centered in the opening, the low center of gravity, that puts "the cherry on top of the sundae"...

The only issue that one could legitimately criticize the LAJ for is the tote, which is shaped and angled differently than the classic Stanley tote used by most other manufacturers. In use I don't notice it, but to one used to the Stanley type I can see that it may feel "unnatural".

In the end, though, I think many who "diss" the LAJ either haven't used it, are rebarbative to trying a different design, or are POed that they paid more for a lesser plane, and try to justify their purchase by putting down the LAJ.

Respectfully,

DC

Re: Help choosing a plane

#38

Who dissed the low-ange jack?

Paul Kierstead

>

Re: Help choosing a plane

#39

Advantages of LV LA BU jack

David Barnett - SW Florida

>Cheap.

Is strong. Like bull.

Fashionable Canadian styling. Like Bulgarian police shoe.

Re: Help choosing a plane

#40

Re: Why does reading this thread get my blood boil

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>It's that pi_ _ing into the wind feeling.

Thanks for the new word.

Pam

Re: Help choosing a plane

#41

LOL!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>

Re: Help choosing a plane

#42

Who said...

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>To short for Jointing, not long wnough for smoothing?

I said something similar to that but it was Long enough to joint, short enought to smooth.

I have ahd the LV BUJ for 5 months (a friend left it at my house) . Still prefer my LN 5.5

You mileage may vary

Dan Clermont

Re: Help choosing a plane

#43

Question

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>What is it that you couldn't get your BU planes to do?

Just curious,

DC

Re: Help choosing a plane

#44

A number of people

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Just read the whole thread...

I honestly can't see what another jack can do better than the Veritas, and no one has given any evidence so far...

You know, I've been a Montr�al Canadians fan since childhood. Even though I live in Ottawa and that the Senators stand a very good chance of hoisting the Stanley Cup this year my heart will remain with the Habs, even if the odds aren't in their favor. Reading from the thread here a lot of people feel the same way about their planes. Except that with planes you can easily demonstrate which one's better...

DC

Re: Help choosing a plane

#45

Re: A number of people

Paul Kierstead

>Except that with planes you can easily demonstrate which one's better...

Denis, surely you know better. All tests are fabricated to some extent, and furthermore 'better' is a wildly subjective word. I can probably devise some criteria that will make just about any plane 'better'. We don't all agree on the criteria for better and to assume so is quite unproductive. And even beyond that, we don't all seek to optimize, not to mention that the differences may not be large enough for some of us to care. If we could objectively quantize plane performance (but we can't, but...), would a plane rated at 100 and another at 110 make all that much of a difference? Especially when technique (sharpening, use, etc) probably is worth 2000 on the same scale?

Everything would be fine if people could leave it at "The LV BUJ is a great plane and is worthy of consideration', but no, it always has to involve "blows away" or "is better then". It is more productive and useful to say "it has a blade which is very easy to adjust" which almost everyone will agree to then to say "it's blade is much easier to adjust then a BD plane" which is much more subjective and does not agree with everyone's experience; I find a BD and BU plane equally easy to adjust.

The thing is that good work can (and has, and will be) with sandpaper, woodies, old planes it highly questionable condition, very modern new LV planes in the latest materials and everything in between. They all have their place and can be used. Clearly the differences are there, but evidence also clearly shows that different people have different experiences and that good work can be done with all of them. I don't ask that you love BD planes, I just ask that you try to understand that not everyone's criteria is the same, quite possibly including the the OP. Ideally he would be given some sensible viable alternatives and decide for himself.

Re: Help choosing a plane

#46

Paul, Paul, Paul! I hope it's not too late.

Dr. Dieter H�lzernkopf

>Can't you see? He's trying so hard to tell you yet you remain blind! This is a cry for help, for understanding. Let us examine:

"You know, I've been a Montr�al Canadians fan since childhood. Even though I live in Ottawa and that the Senators stand a very good chance of hoisting the Stanley Cup this year my heart will remain with the Habs, even if the odds aren't in their favor."

You see, his 'psyche' has naturally surrogated this "LV LA BUJ" for his hockey team, which is fighting for its very survival, Ja? ...which, in turn represents for both his conscious and collective unconscious, the primal bond with his 'race'; his 'tribe', as Jung would say. Remember, he is a hockey 'fan' -- short for 'fanatic', Ja? -- so he and his team's personas are tightly interwoven. You must pay closer attention. Notice he lives in 'Ottawa', wherever that is -- no matter. Right away he tells you this, you see? He is cut off from his line, his people, Ja... his tribe as I haf before said. This is no doubt very frightening, you see, and would explain why he takes this so to herz... excuse me... heart.

Und not only is this his favorite plane, but it is also a 'Jacques' plane, you see... collectively known for its special powers to solve all problems, all crises -- an '�berhobel', if you will. You must not yet confront this. And while for you, Paul... a jack is a jack is a jack... Ja? To him... his special 'Jacques' does even more! Und better! You must let him retain his belief, Ja... if he ist to 'ward off' these opposing mauraders in their repeated attempts to rrrape the tribal M�tter mit their 'sticks', Ja... und their 'pucks'... hockey, you see... Ja? So to him, only this 'fetish', as we say -- and the 'shaman' who guards the tribal womb... the one with the frightening mask, Ja... -- well, you get the idea, Ja?

If we read further:

"Reading from the thread here a lot of people feel the same way about their planes. Except that with planes you can easily demonstrate which one's better... "

...we can see that he is nearing a brrreakthrough and ist beginning to accept differing opinions... up to a point! We must not rush this. He still needs more time, Ja. After this Stanley Cup, perhaps... whenever that is. So let us be patient. Besides, I have a lingering... "eine Ahnung" -- you would say a "hunch", Ja? -- he could be right, you know.

Dieter H�lzernkopf, PhD., M.D

Professor der Psychiatrischen Medizin

CG Jung Institute Z�rich, K�snacht

.

.

(apologies to everyone in advance - db)

Re: Help choosing a plane

#47

Das ist funny, herr H�lzernkopf!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>

Re: Help choosing a plane

#48

Mommy! Paul said a bad word!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>He said "sandpaper"! :)

Of course I realize that tests can be made to make one product stand out by biasing the criteria or the scoring, I'm an economist, remember :)

But let's get back to Jeff's original post. He's looking for one plane. A majority (my assumption) will suggest a jack in that case. Of all the quality jack planes out there, the LAJ is the most versatile, will perform as well or better than the others, and is cheaper to boot. What's not to like?

Over time Jeff might be looking at expanding his plane collection, in which case he will want more specialized planes, maybe a dedicated smoother and a jointer. But even then the jack will play a useful role.

What seems to get you pumped up is the use by some, of, I'll call it "hyperbole", in praising the virtues of the LAJ. You have the right not to like it, but it's not as if these ladies and gentlemen are lying. Notice that few other planes attract this kind of praise (the LN 60 1/2 comes to mind, I have one, I like it, it just doesn't get my "hyperbole level" up)...

I now have a couple smoothers, they work great, but you know what, the LAJ is the one I still reach for when I want to smooth a board. That's my personal subjective preference, I'll admit to that...

DC

Re: Help choosing a plane

#49

I won't be drawn into an argument

David W. Dougherty

>I gave the LV BU planes a very honest trial, and I was not impressed. It's really as simple as that. Full stop.

Re: Help choosing a plane

#50

Now, now, meine gut doktor,

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Surely you know of the dangers of long distance psychoanalysis. Not that I disagree with your characterization of how many seem to internalize tool choices. Funny though, it's usually the LN buyers who do this most frequently. LV must be coming up in the world.

Danke fur the yucks.

Pam

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