Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches - cost effective? *LINK*

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Correct me if I am wrong here, but the Sjoberg seems to be a much lighter duty bench. The Woodcraft site copy states that it is only 184 lbs.




Woodcraft Sjoberg Deluxe Cabinetmakers Bench

inflation over 100 years

Bob Lang

>In researching early 1900s furniture & houses I looked at prices/wages then and now. I don't think the online calculators are really useful. It seems there are too many items compared. Some categories really skew the averages.

What I found, at least for furniture, houses, and wages to some extent is that what cost a buck between 1900-1910 now costs about $100. The Chicago bricklayer given as an example seems to be overpaid for the period-I think he would have made about $12 a week.

Relating to the cost of the LN bench, it's about 2 weeks wages (gross) for a cabinetmaker today.

Bob Lang

Re: inflation over 100 years

Todd Stock

>Bob:

Bricklayers were relatively well paid craftsman for the period, so average wages and work weeks were reasonably good. I made the comparison because the nature of the job, training methods, etc. are still pretty much the same in the big cities (not so in the suburbs, of course).

The numbers are from the 19th Annual Report of the Commissioner of Labor (City of Chicago).

The same source indicates machine woodworkers (toward the lower end of the trades skill range) received about half that hourly rate, so it's likely that skilled finish carpenters and cabinetmakers were somewhere closer to the masons' .50/hr. than the semi-skilled labor feeding stock to gang saws at .25/hr.

Todd

PS - OT: Nice article on the Ellis bookcase - def my favorite and the reason why I've finally subscribed to PW. Given that no good deed goes unpunished, how about a Roycroft Chafing Dish cabinet?

Rgds, TMS

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches - cost effective? *LINK*

Todd Stock

>The big Sjoberg is the Ultimate (144029), which is 255 lbs (with boxes, around 370). For a 98x24 bench, it's pretty light, which could be the lighter weight trestle.


Sjoberg Ultimate

Re: Hey! I say y'all, and I'm not hardly Southern

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Pam- You and Bill are both wrong !! In my part of the country a Yawl is a boat with the steering forward of the mizzen mast.

Dave - ducking and running

Re: inflation over 100 years

Bob Lang

>Todd,

I really didn't mean to imply that you were incorrect, I should have said that average wages for the time were about $12 a week. Thinking on it further, I can see a lot of reasons for a Chicago bricklayer to be well paid at the time.

Thanks for the kind words on the Ellis bookcase article. Feel free to suggest things like the Roycroft, if you could send me some more details I'd appreciate it. We'll see what the boss has to say.

Bob Lang

Re: More Perspective

Ken

>Dean:

I, too, was in this class and these are my 2 cents:

I learned a *great deal* about:

1. building from plans (and seeing errors in them)

2. developing an efficient cutting list

3. selecting and choosing boards

4. developing a sound build strategy

5. working with *large* raw lumber

6. deciding on and executing the most efficient technique to perform the task required (power or hand)

These are core skills a woodworker needs. You can't design a piece and build it without going through these steps. Sure, it was boring (milling board after board) and a real *bitch* sometimes (gluing and levelling the top)...and no, I didn't finish in the allotted time...but I *never* finish a project in the time I allot for it.

All in all, however, I feel that the time and money was well spent and the end product was worth the effort. Your bench is a showpiece of your skill as well as a tool to build other projects. Most anyone can build a nice bookshelf, but how many can build a solid, functional workbench?

Re: Raise Your Hand If...

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Nope, not in South Florida. It was settled after the kind of tools and craftsmanship that we love and appreciate had already gone out of style, or at least economic viability, and for the most part, the skilled craftsmen who retired from the Rust Belt with their tools knew better than to resettle on the Gold Coast, with those other guys whose mantra is "a fast nickel beats a slow dime."

Well...

Dave Louw, Bellevue, WA

>Well it's certainly up to interpretation if it was a) or b) that caused c)... I think I hear my lawyer advising I take the fifth at this point so as to not further incriminate myself...

Dave.

Hmmm...

john jesseph

>I pretty much gave up on fiddling around too much going to auctions around here. I do not live in an area where much woodworking was done, it's basically a rustbelt auto manufacturing area with a shrinking population. Anyone who had tools probably took them with them to Florida when they retired. Maybe down in Indianapolis, but really my experience is that there aren't a lot of tools here, regardless of what you might think. Old machines, yes, hand tools, not a lot.

Our area is like Don's...

john jesseph

>No way, Don, there are tools all over the place, you just aren't finding them!!

Just kidding, it's like that here, pretty rare for the most part. I wish just saying that tools are around everywhere would make it true, but it just isn't...

Re: Diefenbach=POS

john jesseph

>Well, in a nutshell, top not even close to flat, front out of square with top, way sloppy joinery with lots of pinkish filler, really bad dog-holes, back of tool tray about 1/8 inch higher than bench top. I didn't really put all this together until I had the bench too long to do much about it. I know Paul liked his, but maybe they were on a work slowdown when mine was built.

:)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

I hear you

mike recchione

>Even my first bench, which I still use, was done on the cheap. It's now seen about six years of not-gentle use, and it's still going strong. For that one, I also disproved the "you need a bench to build a bench" notion. I did cheat and buy a second-hand top from a restaurant supply store. The top went onto two saw-horses and served as the "bench" that I used to build the base on - again, out of construction lumber from The Borg. I couldn't chop the through mortises in the 4x4s on the sawhorse bench, so I did them Japanese-style - on the ground, with me sitting on the work to hold it steady. The bench is solid as a rock and immmovable.

The first bench was built with no power tools other than a hand-held belt sander (trying to hand plane knotty construction grade 4x4s is an exercise in frustration). For the second bench I used the belt sander and also a handheld electric drill, a drill press and a lathe to turn the teak knobs for the vise handle. It could have been done completely by hand, but I was in a hurry. If I had a table saw and a power planer, I think I could build the whole thing in a three or four hours except for waiting for glue to dry.

Re: More Perspective

Dean in Burlington

>Hey Ken,

Good to see you in the hand tools forum. Glad you had a good time at the course. Throw away your tennoning jig now :)

For me the bench is not a showpiece....a piece a furniture in the house would be and I could have spent more time on that.

Anyways....maybe down the road I will change my mind when I use my bench for many years.

No 27 Acre Auctions, either!

Don Thompson - South of Miami

>

Re: Diefenbach=POS

Paul Jordan (NY)

>This is like saying Ford = POS. There are many Diefenbach models manufactured over many years.

I wouldn't trade mine for a brand new LN, Ulmia (provided you could get one) or any other make. A friend has the same bench I do, and I know he is happy and uses it a decent amount - he makes the Adria line of hand saws.

YMMV, as with all things in life.

P.

Re: Diefenbach=POS

john jesseph

>I vaguely remember this discussion from Badger Pond. I must have gotten the Pinto when the UAW guys were about to go on strike.

I'll try to get some decent digital photos and post them, so you'll see what I mean. The workmanship isn't even close to an Ulmia. I'm glad yours is better. It amy be a blessing in diguise, anyway...

Rephrase: MY Deifenbach=POS

john jesseph

>

I've been there

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Went to that auction severa times with Todd, and boys and girls I am here to tell you that not only is it a sight to behold, but you can actually smell the rust,in the air! Oh, it's just lovely, absolutly lovely. Makes me feel all warm and woozie just thinkin' about it. ;~)

Todd O.

I'll never understand it ....

John Snyder, Pocono's PA

>... I've built four laminated joinery benches - each customized for different craftsmen. As a woodworker, it never ceases to amaze me why other woodworkers don't feel the need to build the most important tool in their shop themselves, but obviously, many do not. For significantly (well, maybe not significantly) less than $1800, I could build that bench out of solid macassar ebony - it would be ungodly heavy, but thats the point for a hand tool bench. Ah well, I guess thats why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors ...

JS

"Y'uns" here in Pittsburgh

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>

Re: More Perspective -Dean's Bench building fiasco

Berend

>More Perspective re: Dean�s Bench building fiasco

I was sorry to read about your bench building fiasco. However, you took quite a bit of liberty to claim that no one in the course finished the bench on time, even suggesting that all of us would have been better off to buy an $1800.00 ready-made bench.

I also was a participant in the course and I am proud to say that I did finish the bench on time, learned a great variety of woodworking skills, gained a lot of confidence in my own abilities and have absolutely no regret for having built my own bench. The course format, expertise of the instructor and interaction with the other participants were for me the ingredients of a very enjoyable woodworking experience.

For the folks out there who might be contemplating building their own bench, it is essential to do your homework first and very carefully. Don�t commit to such a large project blindly. Ask yourself if you have the 3 or 4 hours a week to devote to this project. And most importantly, you need the emotional strength and desire to give this amount of time over the course of several months. Only then will you be able to move the project forward to successful completion. In other words, don�t look through eyes that are bigger than your stomach and bite off more than you can chew!

Re: More Perspective -Dean's Bench building fiasco

Dean in Burlington

>Hi Berend,

I didn't mean to suggest that all the class members where better off to buy an $1800.00 ready-made bench. What I meant was at the price that the bench cost us to make it's not out of the relm to think or consider buying an $1800 bench. Sorry for the confusion. I also wasn't putting down the course. I did enjoy the course very much. I was just showing the cost ratio and comparing it to a ready made bench.

Thanks Martin

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Thanks Martin,

I am here for you if I can ever offerassistance regarding the construction of my bench. As we speak I have written an article about it and it is planned to be featured in the June/July issue of Canadian Woodworking magazine.

The LN bench looks nice, but I really enjoy the one I made.

Take care,

Jim