Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

I wondered about those

john jesseph

>I saw all those neat new benches in the catalog. I wondered where they came from. The last time I was there, he still had those Sjoberg kiddie benches. Sounds like he's really beefing up his facility.

Re: Reefer Madness with Rosewood Handles

Todd Stock

>Unless Pam can get us all using planing beams and those cute little low horses, we're all going to the Bad Place...although we will probably enjoy the ride.

See you there...

Re: More Perspective

Dean in Burlington

>Hi all,

I don't think it's much to pay for a good bench. Let me tell you about my bench fiasco. I know you can make a bench for cheap and some people like to find good deals on wood and hardware but for most people building a cabinet makers bench like the LN bench is a huge project. I know because I'm in the middle of one....and I REGRET BUILDING IT!!!

Here in Canada I took a 6 part class starting last January to build this bench. The class was with a well know professional woodworker and we would have 1 4hr class per month where he would show us the steps to make that section of the bench and then we would have a month to complete it. After 6 months you would have a bench finished to call your own. There where 13 students in the class all realitivly new to woodworking including myself. We used the LV plans for the European style bench (which LV gave us for free) and purchased the wood and hardware through the teachers wood supplier at a discount and LV for the hardware at a discount. We ordered over 1500 board feet of European steamed beach and even with the discount we still paid about $500 per person (Canadian) for the wood...about 100 bd ft per person. Add hardware....for me a twin screw vise for the front (ala Bob Key), tail vise, bench bolts, etc and the bill was about $1100. Add in the cost of the course $50/session so $300 (not that everyone would need that).

Now the sad part. I had NO FUN building this bench. Throwing 8ft lumber over a 6 inch jointer and 13 inch planner is painfull. The bench takes a huge amount to time to build especially for a beginner which I could of spent making the boat load of projects my wife has for me. No body in the course finished the bench in the alloted time. I am still not finished. My bench is workable and I'm using it but I didn't put the tail vise on yet or endcaps with tool tray. I just didn't have anytime left and needed to get other projects done in the house. I regret not buying the LV bench seeing I opted for the twin screw vise. I don't feel I learned any great woodworking lessons either. Installing hardware and lining up vises on a bench is not my idea of woodworking.

So for me and the 12 other students in the class $1800 is worth it. Also...to give another perspective the strange thing was I was the only hand tool junkie in the class. The others were power tool junkies who wanted the bench because like someone else said it looks cool and they could use it to clamp there boards and use the router. Now that being said the teacher who taught the class who is a power tool nut who only uses hand tools for some joint making (tennon fitting, dovetails, flattening large panels) said it's the most important and most used pieces in his workshop...even more than his tablesaw. I am currently working on a stair project and have to say it is the most used station also. This being said and most people will pay 2 grand for a cabinet saw then why not $1800 for the most important tool in your shop!!!!

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Those going to Marc Adams...

Dean in Burlington

>It was my understanding the the Marc Adams school has something to do with making these benches for LN. I may be wrong...dont quote me on this.

Re: $1800!?

Sgian Dubh

>I've no doubt you did learn a lot in your circumstances Paul. My response to Pam should perhaps have had the qualification that for someone like myself with many years formal training in the background such a project uses mostly existing skills. I was agreeing with the point Pam made. Slainte.

Re: Reefer Madness with Rosewood Handles

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Don't knock it til you've tried it. :)

That said, what's/where's the bad place?

Pam

Flat Top

Garrett in Victoria

>The 1" birch ply panel was quite flat and inflexible to begin. To be sure it stayed flat, I laminated the 2 pieces face-to-face with more than a dozen clamps and many screws driven in from the bottom and subsequently removed rather than simply stackin ghtem one atop the other. That seems to have cancelled out any curvature.

Cheers, Garrett

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches

Steve Kubien

>Just a WAG, but I doubt Rob C. will have a stack of them in his garage. Mind you, with 7 or 8 kids, the house must be big enough. Oh, maybe he's a closet Japanese hand-tool junkie and stacks the kids in cubby-hole-type rooms which you can see in Tokyo?!?!?

Alternatively, you could order one from his. No affiliation, blah, blah.

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

-who is liking the fact that his next bench will cost less than $200 Cdn.

Was Dai-Curious, But Now Almost 'Normal'

Todd Stock

>Been there - done that - got the t-shirt and the funny socks (which gets me thinking...does one wear wooden shoes when using Dutch chisels, or leiderhosen when using Two Cherries stuff? Inquiring minds and all that�).

My guess is that those brave souls that rode the woodworking revival wave from the early �70s on have likely gone through that stage of being dai-curious. I was in on the first rush of Japanese tool mania, and had the usual experiences. I still use a few items; however, my tool use preferences are fixed.

I will not weep for my lost adopted traditions�but y�all have fun, you hear?

Re: Was Dai-Curious, But Now Almost 'Normal'

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>The "funny" socks are important if you're going to start sitting on the floor with your feet/foot under your butt and using your feet as vises. They're clearly not important for using Japanese tools. Oh, yeah, socks and clogs (Hey, am I some sort of Dutch Japanese? Does it matter if my clogs aren't made of wood?) are more comfortable than western work shoes, which do offer more protection.

"y'all?" You speak southern? Is this a lost adopted tradition?

Pam

Here's a Real One !

Todd Hughes

>Well looks like I know the bench that LN is copying ! This is my old 1900 - 20's or so Hammacher Schlemmer Bench....looks about just like the pricy LN knock off to me. There is one just like it in the Work Bench book as well. I picked this one up several years back at a local auction for what I considered a pretty high price of about $250. I'm not to sure that the owner didn't have sombody run me up because most don't go this high but I sort of liked it and decided to buy it. After getting it and finding out that I didn't have any place to put it took it over to the Patina Tool meet and sat it out with a $450 price tag on it but no buyers.Maybe should have carved LN in it, eh? Guy next to me had a nice bench priced at $350 [Damn!] he didn't sell his either.When I moved I put the bench on my enclosed back porch where my dogs chewed off the handles[!] . Never used the bench other then to stack things on of course [couldn't help myself and put a nice Millers Falls Beam drill on it for this photo] but am in the process of cleaning the porch up and unearthed the bench last week.Don't intend to use for wood working but hope to stack some nicer stuff on it , maybe some Gerstner tool chests?. Other then some paint splats is in pretty good condition with both vices working fine. Even though I live in old tool Hell I see a good many old work benches most priced less then what I paid, some lots less. I have a huge ancient one out in the barn I think I paid about $35 for. This past summer at an auction I stood there while a big old one with a huge solid top sold for $5. My girlfriends held my hands down so i couldn't bid after I said I think we could get it up on the back porch. Maybe a good thing I didn't buy it.....$1,800 for a LN bench? Well mines a nice bench but it's not made out of bronze or maleable iron,..What?...OH! LN's not either! ....Will point out that mine doesn't have a plywood tool tray either.I'm sure that LN will do very well selling these benches.Boy just think how impressed your friends will be when you set your LN Planes and LN chisels out on your LN Bench..WOOOO WEEE!.....Todd

Aren't you double billing in your estimate?

Dave Louw, Bellevue, WA

>"At my rate of �35 an hour and, let's say, only 50 hrs work to put it all together I end up with �1,750 ... Now I need to factor in that the fifty hours bench making time is non-billable-- I could be working that fifty hours and charging a client, and all of a sudden I've got a bench that's cost my busines �3,800."

Is'nt billing yourself �35 an hour and then adding in the cost of not billing someone else doubling your total? It seems like you should really only be calculating the hours in actual lost productivity towards other billable projects. That's how you ended up with �1,750 + �300 + �1,750.

If you did this during hours where you wouldn't otherwise be working billable hours you can drop the portion of the �1,750 that you don't attribute to wear and tear on machine, etc.

Just a thought...

Dave.

Exactly it: more money than time

Dave Louw, Bellevue, WA

>Martin,

You're absolutely right. Anyone who has more money than time will gladly shell out the bucks for this primo bench so they can spend their weekends making projects that they really love.

Dave.

Amused

David Miller from Iowa

>Chortling a bit at the wide range of heartfelt opinions. Had I tuned in earlier, I might have been tempted to opine that I couldn't imagine buying a bench one one can have the priviledge of making one. But I see that might make me a blasphemer to some.

Live and let live, one person's priviledge is apparently another person's point and click (don't forget shipping).

Re: Here's a Real One !

Todd Stock

>Todd:

From what I can find, an 8' bench in 1900 or so would run between $30 and $40 (less than that for 6.5' benches), or about two week's labor for a skilled craftsman in Chicago or another larger city.

My guess is that the $1800 quoted for the L-N is still not too far off about two weeks of before-tax wages for a skilled craftsman, when you add in payroll taxes.

As to the model, the H-S is a little light on the apron side - I think LN was probably going for the Diefenbach, which is the most massive of the current crop of commercial benches.

Todd

Re: Building a bench

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>This is the most common misconception in woodworking, and the thing that makes a bench building business one of the most difficult in the world I imagine; trying to sell, at a reasonable profit, an object made out of wood to a woodworker ! The misconception is that since it is made out of wood, you can easily make it; all it takes is a nice solid top set on four legs, right?

I am wondering why people don't mind shelling out $1200 for a motor that makes a 10" disc spin in a circle, or $1000 or more for two 18" wheels with a motor that makes a length of steel spin in a circle. Most woodworkers wouldn't even consider building their own table saw or band saw, but to buy a bench; why, that's insane; they are made of wood, and I'm a woodworker!

I build my own bench because I decided I wanted to, and I have a lot more time than money. That doesn't mean I'm smart; in fact, it means I'm not all that bright ;) Anyone who has the time to build their own workbench is not putting their time to it's best use. (Okay, that point is debatable.)

But to work on a nice bench is very pleasant; to work on a bench that never really works quite like it should, why that is just plain mean.

Re: Here's a Real One !

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>If the vises worked well, and the bench as a whole was not wobbly, I would have bought it in a heartbeat.

Re: Building a bench

Todd Stock

>As usual, the air is a bit clearer up your way.

Get Diefenbach and Save $

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>"I think LN was probably going for the Diefenbach

Except that the Diefenbach is 50% lower in cost!

Taxes

bill tindall

>Most of us would be buying with after taxed dollars, pounds or the coin of the realm. What we build for ourselves is the equivalent of tax free income. This is something I consider every time I face the unpleasant task of fixing the car. I hate grease, but I'm cheap.

Re: Get Diefenbach and Save (a little)$

Todd Stock

>Not quite...about $1350 for the large Diefenbach, which is about 25-30 lbs lighter thn the LN due to a slightly less robust trestle and less wood in the aprons.

With shipping, figure the Diefenbach GB 23-43 at $1600 delivered (early Nov exchange rate) and the LN at $2050 delivered.

The Sjoberg large bench is about $1300 and 240 lbs; the Ulmia is about $2000 (325 lb shipping weight, but only 6.5' long), and the Laguna is a full 101" overall, up to 750 lb shipping weight, and $1950 before freight.

1800/1196=?

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>Traditional German (extra heavy) (Model GB -43) is $1196. It is 78.75 in. long so it may be a bit shorter than the $1800 LN.

You might have been looking at the Ultimate American which includes the full set of drawers.

Actually..Think your'e wrong

Todd Hughes

>Looking at the inflation calculater web page I see that $40.00 back in 1900 would be like $843.52 today a little less then half what a LN bench cost. Is curious when I put in what a 604 bedrock cost back on the 1920's [$4.65] it comes out to be like $47.38 in todays money. Believe LN planes are a bit more then this.Just for fun I put in what a new Winchester model 94 cost back in 1900 ,[$11] and came up with $231 in todays money. Actualy not to far off what you can get a new one today for at Walmart. I too looked at the 1900 Chicago Econimic page and saw where a bricklayer made about $1,200 a year back then but this was considered to be at bottom of middle class then [worth about $25,000 or $480 a week in todays wages] and certainly not like sombody making $900 a week [$47,000] today.....Kind of interesting, eh?....Todd who would have invested in special order Winchesters in 1900 and not work benches

I'm with Dean...

Matthew Springer (Mtn View, Ca)

>(the ranting below is mainly because I'm currently house shopping and it is BLEAK, with a very big B. Especially if you are A) unmarried and B) in California and C)sane)

I understand that thrift and galootness are next to neander sainthood, but sheesh!

I've got 100 sq. ft of shop that I rent. It takes a bench to build a bench. And a bench is the one thing I don't have.

Not to mention a band saw, planer or any spare time. Or friends with cheap sources of wood. I doubt I could build a bench even if I wanted to. I just don't have the space. Considering the starter houses in my neighborhood go for +650k, $1800 doesn't really seem like all that bad a deal.

So basically, I'm a crappy woodworker and I do this to relax. $1800 is starting to look pretty darn reasonable to this unmarried software engineer, especially that the alternative is buying something overpriced and TRULY useless, like an M3.

Now if somebody wants to loan me their old bench to build my bench on, I'd be thrilled to build my own and then ship it back. I'll even grow the requisite beard.

Re: Aren't you double billing in your estimate?

Sgian Dubh

>Dave, it certainly can be calculated that way and it might be fairer to do so. I suppose it depends on how you want to look at it. I also lose the opportunity to charge a mark up on materials costs, ha, ha.

I suppose I could make a bench in my spare time when my time is free, but at nights and weekends I generally try and get as far away from furniture design and making as I can.

Interestingly, if you calculate �1,750 labour + �300 for materials, that still comes to ~US$3,895 (at about $1.90/�1.0) excluding shipping from the US. I guess it'd be cheaper and a lot less work to buy at current exchange rates. Slainte.