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Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

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Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#1

Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

Todd Stock

>Don't know if anyone has posted this yet; however, LN had one of the bench prototypes at the Baltimore show, and was actively soliciting orders, so I guess they are ready to go.

Looked pretty good, although I would prefer dovetails for the apron and tail vise - LN uses finger joints. Another feature I'd like to see would be the anti-wracking spinner that is used on some of the European benches; otherwise, just keep a supply of spacers available.

Here's the link to their site with details:


Lie-Nielsen Benches

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#2

Thrills Me To Bits

Doug Evans

>

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#3

$1800!?

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Gad-zooks! I've got maybe $30 in my homebuilt from scounged wood workbench. Gotta wonder what self-respecting woodworker would buy a bench vs build there own in the first place.

Not knocking LN's benches mind you, but durn, $1800? As a younger fellow up in Maine I bought many cars for less than that in total! Best one was in 1980 I bought a '65 Ford Falcon station for $100! Was roack solid except for the front fenders just about the headlights, and ran like top. Swear I'd stil have it to this day if I hadn't tried to pass my buddy on the right-hand side of the road and side-swiped a telephone pole. Blew out every window on the right side, and I never even got a scratch. Proof positive that God looks out for fools. ;~)

Todd O.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#4

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Curious if LN Canada will be carrying them?

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#5

Re: $1800!?

Todd Stock

>About the same as the Laguna or the Ulmia, and a bit more than the Diefenbach and $600 or so more than the bottom of the pack full-size benches through Woodcraft.

I think these guys are shooting for the folks that actually do the math and realize that unless the bench is a labor of love, you can't afford to build it.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#6

Re: Thrills Me To Bits

Todd Stock

>I'm certain it's the same way I feel about yet another low-angle plane announcement...

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#7

Re: $1800!?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, Todd, what's a company to do? Here they've got expensive planes, some $350+, and this produces a quandry. They want to sell workbenches; but workbenches are much larger and much more expensive in material costs than planes and chisels. So when you multiply the costs according to their standard margins, you get $1800. Say, maybe that includes shipping? :)

Just joking, but also looking forward to Cosmos' newly minted little missionaries coming around asking whether they really have to buy the bench to be worth squat as woodworkers. Or the more susceptible ones touting the new benches in Cosmos' shop as the bees' knees. Want to lay odds on when the first one shows up? I'd say give it a week, maybe two.

Pam

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#8

Those going to Marc Adams...

Martin from Granbury, Texas

>can check out the benches in person. I believe Marc got the first 20 or so prototypes. An entire room of LN benches, made especially for him.

I looked at them, and the quality was what you would expect. Also, the bottom of the till could be removed so you could put a clamp where you need it.

I did not try the vise, as I was there for a lathe class.

They looked really nice, although I don't have the space or the $1800 right now.

As to who would spend $1800 on a bench...someone with more money than time. Too bad I have neither.

Someday, when I have room, I hope to build a Shaker bench similar to Jim Shaver's.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#9

How About $450 and 20 hours? Many Pics*

Garrett in Victoria

>I posted this on the other side about 5-6 weeks ago, but refrained from putting it up here because - avert your eyes - I used power tools to build it. However, it does have relevance to this thread, because the LN and other benches are also machine made. However, since this one could also be made easily with hand tools by anyone so inclined, here it is:

Like many woodworkers, I suffered from �bench envy�. I can�t count the number of articles and plans I collected, but almost every one was a variation of the traditional joiner�s bench with wooden shoulder and tail vises. Nevertheless, I continued to dither rather than build.

Why was I still using my MDF-topped-kitchen-base-cupboard bench that I�d quickly thrown together when we�d moved into a new home? Because sub-consciously I knew that what I wanted wasn�t what I needed. In truth, the joiner�s bench isn�t the most suitable for the way many of us work today. And why should it be? A 19th century joiner would recognize few of the tools and machines we use today. They have evolved to meet changing needs or were invented because of expanded technological possibilities. Since a bench is simply another tool, i.e. a clamping machine, why should it remain frozen in time?

Acknowledging three inescapable conclusions finally got me building. I use power tools as much or more as hand tools. I wanted an all-flat surface rather than a junk-collecting tool tray. And, innovation has also produced more practical, stronger, and versatile vises than the wooden beauties associated with traditional benches.

Those �truths� finally crystallized in a plan combining the best of old and new, a derivative bench that suits my approach to woodworking. As a bonus, it was easy to build and didn�t cost the earth, requiring about 20 pleasant hours in the shop and about $200 for materials. The new Emmert clone was $200 at Woodcraft, and the Record Clone was about $20 when I bought it.

After 6 weeks, it has passed an important test: it calls to me to keep it uncluttered and to work on it.


The dimensions will depend on each builder�s situation, especially height. Most experts recommend that the top be the distance from the floor to about the beginning of the wrist. However, unless hand tool use is the primary requirement, other objectives can trump that. In my case 70�x26�x35� high fits the available space and is �� lower than the height of my saw table. With a board clamped in the vise and supported on the bench assistant, it serves double duty as a sort of stationary sliding table for my Unisaw.

Whenever possible, I make from what I have, so the base of this bench is from a stock of a few hundred board feet of 5/4 kiln dried rough hard maple purchased at a very good price several months ago. However, any reasonably dense wood will do, so if you need to buy, look for local bargains. You�ll need 30 board feet for the base including a reasonable amount of waste. Not having thick enough stock, I used regular yellow glue to laminate the three layers required to make the 3�x3� legs, and two layers for the 2� thick upper stretchers.

This bench is a large object that is necessarily strong and heavy to function properly, so I made it easy to disassemble should it ever have to be moved. The frame members go together with 3/8� x 6� bolts � except for the two lower I� thick stretchers where the 4 bolts are 5/16� x 6� - available from any hardware store (my all-in cost for fastenings was $10.00). A 1�� Forstner bit makes the holes to accommodate the fender washers and nyloc nuts, and square one end of each hole with a mallet and chisel, but do use a backer board or cut in from each face to prevent tearout. A 1/8� roundover bit in a trim router smoothed the edges on both sides.


Before drilling the holes, I had marked center lines to the butt ends of the frames, and that made it easy to transfer the lines to the legs. I made a simple jig to ensure that the matching holes did match, and used a long brad point bit to drill both the legs and the frames.


It was a treat to assemble them and have everything line up.


I first assembled the end units and then added the two long top and bottom rails. A couple of pieces of 1� maple with square maple pads on each end were used to span the bottom of the legs to act as lower stretchers. The pads were cut to provide the correct final height, and simply screwed on to enable easy replacement in case any height change should become necessary. The extra holes in the first end unit in the photo above are for the rods and quick release arm of a Record vise clone. I�ve never felt the need for a tail vise because I use the Veritas bench top system. However, since I had a couple of these vises sitting idle, I installed one �just in case�. I haven�t yet drilled the �� holes for the Veritas bench top system since I�m still working out the ideal locations.


With the base complete, it was time to make the top. When I went into the garage to pick out enough maple to laminate the required 26 pieces, I spotted a sheet of 1� birch plywood I had earlier purchased on spec for $60. Suddenly, the prospect of laminating only 2 pieces of plywood seemed a lot more attractive. After cutting the sheet to size and choosing the face, I arranged about 10 clamps on either side and a couple on each end of what would be the bottom sheet, quickly spread yellow glue on both surfaces, sandwiched them together, and tightened the clamps. I then flipped it over and drove in about a dozen 1 �� screws down the center line. With the clamps and screws removed the following day, the alignment of the two sheets was good but not perfect, so I jointed one edge, ripped the other parallel, and used my sled to square the two ends.


When that was done, I edged the top with 1� of maple and had an excellent working surface. (Even so, I have to admit it doesn�t feel �proper� to me, so I�ll be making the solid maple top one of these days.)

A Record style vise is easy to mount, and doesn�t require any overhang. Removing the cotter pin and washer on the end of the rods enables the jaws to be separated from each other (although I had to use a mallet to persuade them to part). If you have an overhang, skip the next step, otherwise, measure carefully and use the end plate to draw the holes on the rail. With a piece of scrap clamped on the backside to avoid tearout, drill them somewhat over-sized with a Forstner bit as per the photo of the end units above. You can then slip the rods through the holes, and with the required spacer in place, lag screw or bolt the rear assembly to the bench and reassemble the parts. However, a more elegant approach would be to mortise the rear jaw into the face of the top.


That said, my current choice for face vise is a Taiwanese clone of the renowned Emmert patternmaker�s vise. Although massive with a lot of parts, and weighing more than 60 pounds, simply unscrewing the front jaw breaks it down into a couple of roughly equal pieces to make it much easier to handle. Installing it was far less daunting the second time around. The rear jaw of the vise is mounted to the bench via a large hinged casting that requires a 3/8� deep mortise in the bench�s top and front. I cut out a piece of scrap the size of the plate to make a template, clamped the half vise in position to mark its edges, and then replaced the vise with the template. A 3/4� straight pattern bit in a router made short work of it, and I squared off the corners with an inexpensive hinge chisel. A small dovetail saw and some chisel work took care of the front mortise.


The next job was to undercut the top for the Emmert�s short 4� diameter barrel. A tin can about the same diameter provided the arc, and some satisfying mallet and chisel work got rid of the waste quickly.


The Emmert�s industrial appearance and lack of gentility is balanced by its remarkable flexibility. Here it is with the auxiiary jaw for awkwardly shaped work.


To complement the Emmert, I made a bench assistant from a piece of 6� wide maple and ripped a piece of 1� maple to make a �French cleat� with a 15� bevel.


With one piece screwed to the face of the upper front stretcher, and a short piece of its mate on the back of the assistant, a spacer block on the back near the bottom holds it vertical by resting against the lower stretcher. The �� holes accept a Veritas bench dog. When not needed, the assistant lifts off and stores out of the way on the end of the bench, hanging from another piece of the cleat.


The finish is a couple of coats of thinned poly as a sealer, sanded to 150, and followed by 2 coats of buffed Minwax.

Of course, all that lovely space under the bench is an invitation to storage. About 6-8 months ago, I stopped at a Lee Valley store, and purchased one box each of their stamped metal toolbox trays. For a variety of reasons they were never used for the original project in my wife's sewing room. However, when I came across them again the other day, I realized they would serve well under my bench. (I like shallow drawers, because it's so much easier to see and find things.)

The instruction sheet that comes with the drawers demonstrates that this is a clever system. Run thin saw cuts in the gables at 1 1/4" intervals, and you can switch the drawers around to your heart's content. Even better, since my 3 boxes consisted of 5x1", 5x2" and 3x3" trays, they combined to fit exactly in 4 vertical rows as per the first photo in the series above. I used some of the 1" birch ply left over from the top for the uprights, and some scrap particle board faced with maple for the case. I set the case in place so that the faces of the drawer pulls were back just enough to provide clearance for the removable bench jack.

I still have to make 4 or 6 wooden drawers to take up the remaining space, but at least I no longer suffer bench envy!

Cheers, Garrett

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#10

Re: $1800!?

Todd Stock

>As far back as the first Workbench Book, most business people have recognized that building workbenches is a pretty poor way to make money. Given that L-N is doing this in the US and not in South Africa or other developing nation, I'm surprised that they even considered it worth while. Like some of the other tools produced, I think the benches are something L-N wanted to make, versus anything driven by a CBA. If Thos Moser were selling benches as furniture, they'd be retailing at $5500 with a 4 month back-order status.

As to the cost of LN tools, I assume that you are not opposed to US manufacture of quality goods, nor do you oppose L-N paying their work force a living wage with decent benefits. I also recall that you seemed opposed to moving jobs to lower wage areas for the sake of higher corporate profits - even software development work. Now...were you complaining or just commenting on the cost of quality domestic tools?

Yes...Rob does have his opinions, although I think he is probably a bit less tenacious about them than the average reader here on the quiet side ;-)

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#11

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches

Paul Kierstead

>Y'Know, my first reaction was that it was an awful lot of money. Then, thinking about it, I have seen quite a few dining room tables that had less material cost and probably less labour/machine cost then this yet cost more. It isn't cheap, but not actually a bad deal. I wonder how similar it is to Rob Cosman's bench he had at the Ottawa Woodworking show...

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#12

Re: How About $450 and 20 hours? Many Pics*

steve knight

>my type of bench.

now save some bucks and make the top out of purpleheart or yellowheart or one of the other low cost tropicals. it will outlast maple 10 to one and be far more stable. plus it will weigh far more too.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#13

Instant Gratification

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Their are allot of people out there who don't want to put the time or effort into building a bench.

I built my bench and will build another some day. Allot of people who are into power tools and don't have a clue about how to put an edge on a tool look at my bench and want to buy it. These poeple have no interest in ever using it for its intended purpose but would rather have it in the shop cause it looks cool.

I see allot of true neander's working on pretty poor/make shift benches and making wonderful projects. They will probably never see the need to spend that kind of money on a bench and will probably build one their way someday.

How much do people spend on bandsaws, table saws, dust collector's , etc? It can be an expensive hobby ;)

Dan Clermont

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#14

Re: $1800!?

Sgian Dubh

>It depends on where you're coming from whether you find $1,800 for a workbench expensive-- assuming the LN bench is a good one of course. At my rate of �35 an hour and, let's say, only 50 hrs work to put it all together I end up with �1,750. Now I need to add the cost of materials at maybe �300 or $00, and I'm already at �2,050.

Now I need to factor in that the fifty hours bench making time is non-billable-- I could be working that fifty hours and charging a client, and all of a sudden I've got a bench that's cost my busines �3,800.

The last bench I purchased when I started my business in the US, an Ulmia, cost me ~$1,200 in 1995 if I recall correctly. To me it was money well spent, and I still use it now that I've moved back to the UK.

As I said at the beginning, it all depends on your point of view. Slainte.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#15

Re: $1800!?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Todd, I truly find the whole thing amusing. I'm certainly not complaining about anything LN does, being a consumer/user of many of their planes.

However, I won't be ponying up $1800, given that the software industry abandoned me four years ago and that $1800 is about 3 months worth of living expenses. To say nothing of the fact that a typical western bench is completely unsuitable for my work habits.

If I do have a complaint about LN, it's more about many of their customers' attitudes. It's funny, a loyal customer/user gets beat on routinely by the holier-than-thou customer/user who apparently thinks LN makes the best of the best.

Pam

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#16

Re: $1800!?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>It would seem a lot more affordable and sensible/cost effective if I were still building software for $125-150/hour; but, alas, those days are gone, probably forever. Poor Yorick.

But even then, I would have thought long and hard about purchasing vs building a bench (I did purchase a basic, very cheap bench for use until I figured out what I want). First, there are the considerations for using Japanese tools that I'd want to see in a bench. Second, building benches teaches a skill set that seems important; but you would have earned that in your apprenticeship.

So, I agree with your rationale.

Pam

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#17

Re: How About $450 and 20 hours? Many Pics*

paul womack

>Suddenly, the prospect of laminating only 2 pieces of plywood seemed a lot more attractive.

How did you keep/make the top dead flat?

It's very easy (DAMHIKT) to laminate in a curve, and you can't plane (much) off a plywood top to flatten it.

Benches for planing need to be as flat as you desire your workpieces to be parallel.

BugBear

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#18

Re: $1800!?

Sgian Dubh

>Indeed Pam. Building a bench is just using already existing cabinetmaking skills-- mostly solid wood edge joinery, mortice and tenons, dovetails, working grooves, etc., all after initial stock preparation.

It's just the time factor involved which can detract from profits from my point of view. But if profit is not a factor then it can be an enjoyable challenge for anyone to make a bespoke bench. Slainte.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#19

Perfect product

Jim Reed @Tallahassee

>for that company. They make high end planes which are PRETTY MUCH WORTHLESS without a bench. Anybody with $200 to spend on a scrub plane should be able to cough up 2 grand for a suitable bench. I think LN knows their customers well. Great product.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#20

From another Perspective

Steve Wargo

>While I have a bench that I made myself, If I were in the need to make another one now with the current backlog of commissions, I might be better off just buying one. Not certain I'd shell out $1800 for a bench, but I simply don't have 35 to 40 hours to sink into the construction of another bench. If it's at all like the other LN products, I'm sure it's of excellent quality, and to be honest...I bet they sell a ton. There's an awful lot of people out there that collect.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#21

Economic Sanity Vs. Getting What You Want

Todd Stock

>I think there is room for debate on the issue.

My view is that a bench is just another tool, and is worth building (vs. buying) only if one or more of the following applies:

- There is no commercial bench available that meets all of your perceived needs (e.g., size, quality, hexagonal dog holes, built-in spokeshave shrine, etc.)

- Commercial benches are not within your budget (see cost discussion below)

- You derive considerable enjoyment from building shop fixtures, jigs, etc., and have the freedom to blow off other projects in favor of something that squats in the shop, unseen and under-appreciated by SWMBO, HWWBI, etc.

- Building a bench is an essential part of your woodworking education.

25 years ago, there was no doubt in my mind that I would build my own bench. When it came time recently to upgrade to a heavier, longer bench, I really had to spend some time assessing whether I needed a month or two away from sheathing/siding the house, window replacements, replacing colonial clam with late A&C/Neo-Col, and other 'money-making' tasks.

As to cost, BOM can run as high as $600, and labor hours for many benches run in the 50-100 hour range if burning electrons - more if not. For those of us billing for our labor, it makes little economic sense to forego $50 to $500 an hour to pay ourselves $150 a day to build a bench.

What tips the scale is pride ("I built my own bench"), quality/design issues (e.g., finger joints versus dovetails, need for hydraulic top lift), or affordability ("My time costs me nothing and I enjoy building stuff for the shop").

Ultimately, I ended up telling my wife that a new bench was off the Christmas list after I determined that I could not find everything I wanted from any of the manufacturers. Besides, how often (other than timber-framing or boatbuilding) do you get to cut through-dovetails in 16/4 stock?

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#22

Re: $1800!?

paul womack

>Building a bench is just using already existing cabinetmaking skills

Not for a beginner. Building a bench is excellent woodworking experience, where cosmetic imperfections are tolerable.

The tolerances for joint fitting are quite generous on such a large piece too.

I learnt a great deal about woodworking during the construction of my bench.

BugBear

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#23

Reefer Madness with Rosewood Handles

Todd Stock

>I can't believe the depths that LN and other stoop to when moving their product, even down to the world-wide conspiracy to actually refer to some of their tools in a way that constantly begs us to consider buying their other products.

At the Baltimore show, I actually witnessed a comely L-N rep dog down a piece of stock and invite an unsuspecting youngster to "...take a swipe...just one swipe - no cost...this time..." - all in front of the youth's parents! There the kid was, blissfully content with 4x24 belt sander for his panel smoothing needs, when along comes the Tool Pusher Man (err...woman) selling reefer madness with rosewood handles.

Absolutely diabolical...

'Bench Plane', indeed...more like the crack cocaine of the woodworking world.

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#24

Re: $1800!?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Can you make me one just like the LN for less than $1800?

Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches *LINK*

#25

Re: Reefer Madness with Rosewood Handles

Bob Hackett

>You`re ready Todd.Time to turn your collar around and move on to saving those poor souls.

Good luck buddy,that`s some powerful stuff they`re sellin`.

Mainely,Bob

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