Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
More like 2050/1600
Todd Stock
>More like 1800/1342...and shipping is about the same, so the cost differential is as indicated earlier.
The Ultimate American (GB 23-43) is the equivalent bench - it's almost 8' (91" overall) versus the significantly shorter German benches, and is $1342 plus around $250 or so for shipping (~$1600).
I worked for years on a 6' bench - it's just too short, but many student benches are shorter.
Re: I'm with Dean...
Mike G.
>Matthew said;
I've got 100 sq. ft of shop that I rent. It takes a bench to build a bench. And a bench is the one thing I don't have.
What about a pair of stout "saw horses" and an old solid core door to start on. From there you can build your bench. Let me add that as a carpenter out in the field, I build quite a bit of cabinetry on a set of saw horses. Off course, I've usually got the whole greatroom floor to use for an assembly area.
Mike G....who feels your pain at the 650K home prices in CA. I looked it up and a house we sold in San Diego back in 1975 for 51K now goes for around 500K and it isn't even a "good neighborhood" anymore. It was back then...4 bdm ranch with 2 car garage.
I was with Matthew...
Dave Louw, Bellevue, WA
>in Mountain View but I left for greener pastures (or actually the Evergreen State to be precise) because I too was thinking of buying a house but was A) unmarried and B) in California and C)sane. Immediately upon leaving I got an effective 14% pay raise (no state income tax) and a huge cost of living decrease (I briefly rented a 4 bedroom house in Bellevue, WA for the same amount of money that I paid for a studio apartment on Castro Street in Mtn. View, CA.) Within a year I bought a decent house and since there are actually women (I know it was a shock!) in Seattle I met and married the woman of my dreams. So while I'm no longer A) unmarried and B) in California and C)sane (see item A), I am now happy as a clam, errrr, geoduck.
There are only two things I miss about the bay area: killer Mexican food and In-N-Out burger. So Matthew, my two pieces of advice are "get the hell out of Mtn. View, you'll be happier" and "enjoy the carnitas burritos at Taqueria Los Charros on Dana."
Dave.
Raise Your Hand If...
john jesseph
>Raise your hand if you ever in you r life been to an auction that had a bench for sale that you could use for woodworking... (Besides Todd, of course)
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller...??
Actually...I Don't Think So
Todd Stock
>Taxes, dude..., plus changes in the real cost of good and services due to you and your employer paying for a wide range of mandated government programs (OSHA comliance, unemployment, mohair subsidies, bad rugs for network news anchors, etc.).
After tax dollars versus after-tax dollars. If you believe the CPI-based inflation calculators, something that cost a buck should run about $20 now.
If you plug in the price of sirloin (.14/lb in 1900) or most other grocery items and multiply by the inflation factor, you'll get a number that is well below anything like average real world figures ($2.95/lb sirloin steak ...not at my Giant). You can throw in all the fudge factors for this and that; however, there is another approach that works pretty well (at least as well as trying to factor in commodity prices over a 105 year stretch).
This gets us back to comparing the days of labor required to purchase an item.
In 1900 Chicago, brick-layers worked 44 hours/week and were payed about $26 or so for that labor. These days a journeyman mason gets about $28/hr, or $1120 a week. Doing the math, it's about 1-1/2 to 2 weeks of labor for the same bench, whether purchased in 1900 or 2005.
Another example:
Our 1900 mason earned .50/hour or so - he had to work 20 minutes to buy a lb. of steak for dinner. Our 2005 mason buys sirloin for $6.95/lb, so he works 15 minutes for his dinner...if it were not for taxes, which have him working another 5-7 minutes for Uncle Sam, or say about the same 20 minutes as his great-great grandfather.
The good news in all this is that some things are cheaper...those $2000 unisaws in 1985 are now about $1600 or so, but at a cost of most of the jobs associated with the industry moving to overseas locations.
Finally ...the prices for LN tools (and other similar goods/services from small companies) reflects thier costs for payment of a living wage, decent benefits, and a turkey at Christmas. I'm certain that the bench could be made elsewhere and sold for less money, but I doubt that there is much of any profit in the bench to begin with.
Diefenbach=POS
john jesseph
>Sorry to say that I have a Diefenbach, and it is a piece of crap. I would gladly pay the extra 600 bucks for the LN if I was in the market for a European bench.
I'm going to sell it and replace it with a Nicholson-style bench some day.
Re: I was with Matthew...
Matthew Springer (Mtn View, Ca)
>Ha! Good for you getting married! Yeah, I tell people dating in Mt View sucks and they think I'm making it up. I'm not. It really does suck (if you're a guy). I'm actually not as bitter as I sound, just learning that hard lesson that things don't generally turn out like we plan. I suppose it's good to learn it at 31 as oppossed to 40.
I _do_want to get out, beleive you me, I had about 8 or 9 other college friends from Cornell all move out here at about the same time I did. They're pretty much all gone. The church I attend has had it's singles population shrink by about 75% over the last four years.
I'm definitely not going to stay here forever. About a year ago I had the Job from Hell (tm) and I was within literally days of deciding to leave, but scored the killer work gig that makes it mostly worthwhile (goog). Alas, I got in too late to solve all my financial issues, but it still totally rocks to work here.
At least it'll allow me to afford a nice LN bench. I suppose it's somebodies sacred duty is to keep them in business. Might as well be mine.
-Matthew
Re: I'm with Dean... *LINK*
ScottS
>Hey, you're in my neighborhood (Mountan View, CA)!
Here's my advice:
1) If you want a house, you need either a huge salary (preferably two) or stock options. It also helps if you can find a "starter" house in an up-and-coming area or if you have the skills to fix-up an older house. FWIW, I had to use all three of these things! And I still don't have a garage or any shop space to speak of...
2) Don't buy the M3. The Subaru WRX STi is more fun, more capable, and $20-30K cheaper. Plus with some mud and snow tires, you can go skiing. Yeah, it looks ridiculous, but you'll forget all about that the first time you nail the accelerator in first gear.
3) I, personally, think you can build a high-quality bench without spending a lot of money. Check out Bob Key's beginner bench project. Don't have all the hand tools he does? No problem! If you've got a Workmate, a drill, and some sort of saw, you're good to go. The Veritas "Basic Bench Kit" ($70) claims to use only butt joints for the construction and the reports I've read make it sound very solid. Woodcraft, now in Redwood City, will sell you a laminated maple top for $220-300 (depending on size). Order a couple of vises and spend a couple of hours at Home Depot, Lowes, Southern Lumber, etc. sorting through pine 2x material and you should be ready to go!
If you run into trouble drop me a line. I'm always happy to help out or commiserate, as the case may be...
Bob Key's beginner bench
Need to get out more...
Todd Hughes
>I imagine in the summer I see a bench at least once every two weeks if not more so at auction.Some may not be in perfect condition, might want to flatten the top if you are that type but certainly usable with very little or no work. While i have seen them sell for a high of $400 for a very nice one with cabinets often they go low because of thier size and people just don't want to fool with them. I have some slow head friends that bought a nice old one for $200 last fall, after draging it around to a few shows with a $600 price tag on it they sold it to a New York dealer for $300 and was happy to get it. Don't think they will be buying anymore work benches to sell. Actually have seen a few go for the minimal bid of only $5 because of this. I really don't think I live in an old tool heaven and would be surprised if there are many places where there are really that many less tools then here, OK I see the hand from the guy in Bumf**K Alaska , but I have friends that lived out west and they tell me the tool hunting is much better there then here, think the same for mid west and of course New England.
This always makes me think of the time I was set up down outside Memphis Tenn. with tools for sale. Guy comes up amazed at all the tools I have out and buys a draw knife from me. Tells me he's been looking for one for years but where he lives they don't have any tools that you can find and I must be very lucky to live where I do to find all these. Asked him where he was from and he told me Annapolis Md.....About 25 miles from my back door! ....yea OK ......Todd
Re: I was with Matthew...
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Ah, perhaps you could convince your bosses to treat women techs a bit better. Kind of reminds me of the rush to have male children in China, got to wonder who they're going to marry.
Pam
Re: Diefenbach=POS
Jeff Schmidt (KY)
>I have not actually seen a Diefenbach but I thought I remember Paul Jordan, on Badger Pond, giving it a fairly good review. As I recall, he said that the fit and finish could use some improvement but nothing that affected function.
What do you not like about yours? Top not flat? Vise faces not parallel?
Re: Was Dai-Curious, But Now Almost 'Normal'
Todd Stock
>A bad night parachute landing ended my flirtation with Japanese toolishness - sitting with my leg underneath me is a good way to end up on Vitamin M at 4x800mg for a week or so.
As to southern...I take tabasco on everything except that which requires pepper jelly, biscuitsangravy is one word, and the wife that came before the trophy wife was from just outside of Waco.
I'm also pretty sure I recall one of my buds that had to wreck his truck to get the insurance money to be able to make his truck payment (and Larry the Cable Guy had to have gotten that line from Steve Tanner, 'cause that was a good 25 years ago and just a little west of Georgetown, TX).
Re: Raise Your Hand If...
William Duffield, on the Cohansey
>My hand is up. Most of the auctions I go to have benches that can be and have been used for woodworking, but then I really don't like auctions, so I pick and choose very carefully the ones I attend. Sometimes, you have to make a separate bid for a working vise, but not usually.
Re: Lie-Nielsen Benches - cost effective?
Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA, the rain's here
>Let me say up front that I'm not buying either an LN bench or any other until the lottery gods smile down on me - in fact, not just smile but pick me up on their shoulders and carry me to the bank.
Still...for those with limited time but less limitation on money than I have, I think the argument can be made for a bench - indeed, Sgian has made it on one level. Comparing the Woodcraft Sjobergs bench to the LN bench, the LN bench is $500 more expensive, BUT can be made left handed and at the requested height, both very important to a taller than average southpaw. So, were I buying, I'd be looking seriously at the LN bench.
Instead, I'll continue working on my plywood box base with the solid-core door screwed to a ledger that's then lag-screwed to the wall.
Hey! I say y'all, and I'm not hardly Southern
Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA, the rain's here
>I just learned it from one of my teachers - most practical way there is to say "No, I don't mean YOU have to do it; just someone has to do it."
Benches, bench building
mike recchione
>I just finished building a new bench for my new "summer" shop. The new bench is small - it had to fit into a particular space, but I wanted it to be heavy, sturdy, flat, level and immovable. The base is construction lumber from The Borg, hand selected to be not too nasty. The top (and I debated with myself about this) is 4 quarter-sheets of 3/4" oak plywood, edged with highly figured spalted maple (which I also found at The Borg). I had the face vise, which is a very old, very heavy quick release 7" iron vise that I reconditioned. The vise faces are scrap cherry, the handle is maple and teak that I turned - it looks fairly pretty, and was free (I garbage picked it) except for 30 minutes of my night time to spruce it up. The whole bench bolts together. There is no tail vise, since I can't justify one on such a short bench. I'm making a number of "bench aids" that will let me do what I need to on the bench. All-in-all, I've got a little over $100 in it. Some of the weight comes from stuff stored on a shelf over the stretchers. It's flat, it doesn't move, and it's in front of a window, which pleases me a whole lot. I think I may have spent a total of 10 hours building it, and if you count trips to HD, maybe there's fifteen hours in the bench counting time sitting in traffic.
What's the point of mentioning this? Well, if your objective is to have a bench that meets your requirements for woodworking, even for exclusively hand-tool woodworking (which is pretty much what I do), you still don't need to make your bench your magnum opus. You can construct a good, servicable bench for a couple of hundred bucks and less than a day's work. If you want a piece of furniture for your livingroom, then you'll need to do more. But consider how much that first ding will hurt you!
The thing about this LN bench is that, while it looks like a servicable bench and all, it ISN'T a work of art. So many of the bench pics that have been posted here or on BP or The Porch are much more beautiful. This bench looks pretty utilitarian when you come right down to it. So if utilitarian's the goal, why not just spend a day or so and do it yourself for a small fraction of the price?
- Mike
Re: Hey! I say y'all, and I'm not hardly Southern
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>I grew up in Richmond, VA, and when we said it it meant you plural, was definitely not impersonal. I never had that much of an accent, but my first year of college was at UWis, and about the 5th time somebody said "oh, say that again, that's so cute," I started adopting a mid-Atlantic accent, which I've kept. But, whenever I'd go home over the years, y'all was the first word I'd pick up again, right away, was almost impossible to lose. It's a wonderful word when not being used as an insult. In Texas it's not the same, not nearly so soft and pleasing.
Pam
Re: Benches, bench building
Greg Sloop, Portland OR
>I'm with you, though mine's even more "trailer-trash..."
Same borg construction grade lumber for the frame. 3/8" bolts hold the strechers. The legs are 4X4 posts, and the rest is 2X4.
The top is skank 3/4 MDF - triple lamination, at about 32X70" with a premo temperboard on top.
I was going to go all skank and put 2X4 lumber as "edge-banding" around the top. But since I had several sections of Jatoba around, I used that instead. (I now have several 2X4's I don't know what to do with - I'm sure I'll find something.)
The only thing upscale on my bench is the Veritas twinscrew vice, with surprisingly curly hard maple jaws. (The maple was rough sawn, and I didn't realize how nice it was until after I started trying to plane it.)
The whole thing is bolted together, and could probably withstand, as a friend said, "nuclear war."
But hey, it's a nice bench, weighs a ton, and does way more than I could do planing on my CS top. :)
Total cost, excluding the vice is less than say $150. Heck, the vice is probably worth more than the bench total - actually I know it is!
And I've got a lot of MDF left over to use for other stuff when I need it.
I've got a Sunday or two and a few evenings into it, but not a lot more than that.
I suppose if I made a living out of doing cabinet work, I'd probably want something less skank, but hey I can pot plants on the thing without having to worry about damaging an $1800 bench. If and when it breaks or looks too disgusting, I'll do another for $100.
Cheers,
Greg
Re: starting...
paul womack
>It takes a bench to build a bench.
True, as far as it goes.
But fortunately, on most benches you can build a better bench,
Being specific, I built a decent "first bench" on a workmutt. Everyone has a workmutt, right?
Most of the timbers in a bench are so big, they just need holding off the floor. Gravity and inertia keep 'em pretty much in place for working on.
I bought S4S lumber for the frame, and used laminated ply for the top. I knew enough not to attempt stock prep planing on a workmutt.
BugBear
Re: Detail?
paul womack
>piece of crap
What were the problems?
BugBear
Re: Need to get out more...
paul womack
>Todd;
In an average week, how many different sales do you go to?
For the sake of argument, define "different" as requiring a vehicular journey (e.g. anteek mauls count as 1, regardless of number of dealers under the roof).
Feel free not to answer if you regard this question as intrusive or "commercially sensitive"
BugBear
Did you really mean what you said ...
Ian in Sydney
>your quote � "I'm no longer A) unmarried, B) in California, C) sane "
You're a braver man than me: marriage = loss of sanity !
does the LOYL share this view?
Best wishes
Re: Need to get out more...
Todd Hughes
>Changes of course with the season....things are a bit slow right now. I still go every wed. to my local weekly auction, normaly find somthing and go to my two resale shops every other Thursday.In the summer I try to go to the NJ Flea Market every Tuesday and then to one in Del. on Friday and / or Sat. and might go with a girlfriend to set up at one in Washington on Sunday.Will point out that most of the benches I have seen for sale have been at my weekly auction which is a huge,[27 acre] antique auction with 3 auctioners in golf carts selling fast. Not going to find a bench at the flea market because a dealer would have to be crazy to haul somthing like that around.Another reason they go cheap at auction. Though I used to go to many estate sales and auctions ,[where I have seen benches] now I rarely do though sort wish I did. For practical purposes I never have any luck with yardsales and only stop if with a girlfriend who wants to, do stop in Antique stores and normaly buy somthing.
I make my living buying and selling junk.Is absolutly no problim for me finding enough to sell actually the exact opersite is the trouble,... buying to much and never get around to selling it all so I have made an effert to scale back on my buying trips. No longer go to my Mon. or Thursday flea markets both of which were very good. Hard for me to cut back because I just know I'm missing out on a "Great Deal" out there........Todd
I grew up with "youse."
Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida
>
Re: Raise Your Hand If...
Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida
>Wiliam, you used to live down here. I do not know of any auctions like this within 100 miles of me?
...weekly auction which is a huge,[27 acre] antique auction with 3 auctioners in golf carts selling fast.
All I run into are flea markets, and one-off auctions at business bankruptcies.