Just to break your heart

Re: Just to break your heart

Dale Stansbery

>Hey, I recently bought a mint #2 for $35. Oh yeah, it was an Eclipse. I presume the #1 was a Stanley?

Yup, Stanley

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>I don't go to woodnet as all thatr password business is to much of a PITA for me, otherwise I'd link the story here. My buddy read me the entire thread over the phone, so I know it's lajit.

There still out there folks and one day I'm gonna get me a $5 #1. Coarse, that'll mean I'll have to spend $2 more than Bob Brophy did, but I guess that's alright in this case eh?

Todd O.

Re: How to buy a #1 for $10

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>There would be several ways to get a #1 Stanley bench plane cheap. First of all, it wouldn't be too hard to just post a message that you did, whether or not it actually happened. Second, you could steal one. I hate to see this happening, but it is becoming more common. But I think the best way ever would be to buy one on-line from a dealer for upwards of a thousand dollars; you would be almost guaranteed to find one in better shape, probably new in the box, at a yard sale for $10 or less in the next few months.

Re: How to buy a #1 for $10

mfitterling

>"But I think the best way ever would be to buy one on-line from a dealer for upwards of a thousand dollars; you would be almost guaranteed to find one in better shape, probably new in the box, at a yard sale for $10 or less in the next few months."

Todd--let me know once you've bought the ebay #1, I'll go with you on your next rust hunting trip. No point in you having two #1s!

You're a real pal Mike

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>I know that you know my storage space is limited, and that you are just trying to look out for me. Man, you're alright.

Meantime, don't hold your breath waiting for me to buy an e-bay #1. ;~)

Todd O.

Here's a 4th way

WoodburnBob

>Forgo the search. Stay in your shop, or even on a couch. Pay yourself $0.50 an hour for each hour you don't go driving from one sorry yard sale or estate sale or antique shop to the next. At the price of gasoline these days even the $0.50 won't really cost you anything. In no time you'll be able to buy one with your hard earned money...the money you start out with is hard earned, isn't it? Do that if a #1 is what you think will truly make you happy.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the intoxicating allure of the search. I tried it for a short while but evidently didn't have the spine to continue.

Oh, and reading about such "gloatable" transactions as the $10 #1 leaves me a little cool. Had the seller been a child, or a retarded man, or an old women subsisting on cat food, or even simply a real human being would the deal have been all that admirable? Would I want to establish for all time the true capacity of my own greed? Must ignorance really be license for theft?

Re: Here's a 4th way

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Had that some conversation awhile back with a friend of mine and this is my take.

If I ever happened into a widow who was selling off her late husbands tools and she had them grossly underpriced I'd bring it to her attention. Call me a fool, but by goodness, I'm not ripping off a widow. Falls under the heading of "do unto others as you'd have done to you" if nothing else.

Now, if I was to stumble upon a $10 #1 at an antique shop or flea market I'd snap it up in a second and ask if they had anymore of these paperweights as I'd like to have a matched set to make bookends out off.

Bottom line is I ain't gonna steal from somebody who for obvious don't know any better. But that's me, call me a fool if you so think, I don't mind. I lay my head upon my pillow everynight with a clear conscience and I like it that a' way.

Todd O.

And of course

WoodburnBob

>Your scrupples regarding the hypothetical widow are unimpeachable. These days, not everyone would spare the old gal.

Sounds like you imagine you'd take advantage of flea market venders but not proverbial defenseless widows. In either case, you would agree that your taking a #1 for $10 would constitute "taking advantage of", right? It's that you'd consider one justifiable and the other not, right?

I'm just not sure I understand the reasoning by which venders and their ilk become fair game. Clearly someone could say a vender has an obligation to know prices and a widow doesn't. But I'm not so sure that passes much moral scrutiny.

Let me give two real examples. For years I've noticed that occasionally a checkout person will ring up my purchases wrong...in my favor to the tune of $2 to $20. It is almost laughable that I am as likely as not to correct the total for him/her. Evidently I make these decisions on the spur of the moment as if by whim. There's essentially no thought involved. When I do the corrupt thing, the little boy in me is ashamed and worried as I walk out the door. On the other hand, when I'm over-charged, I often don't point it out and just let it go and walk out of the store with a slight sense of moral superiority. Really, it makes no sense if consistency in personal ethics matters.

Here's the other example. A few months ago I noticed an infill on Ebay. It was in the wrong category, had a cursory description and the pictures were less than clear. Still I was convinced it was a curve sided Mathieson smoother. It opened at $200 and remained there. As the only bidder I got it at that price. On arrival a few days later, it was indeed a Mathieson with the faintest mark in the bun wood. It was really in top user shape and would have been in the $350 to $400 range with Murland or if handled differently on Ebay.

I emailed the seller, a woodworker with a nice website, exclaiming my happiness, telling him I was sure it was a Mathieson and all the rest. I was actually prepared to offer him a little more money out of fairness. His joyful reply focused on how happy he was that I was so happy! He also gushed about how good he felt seeing the plane go to a good home and caregiver, as if he were putting out a beloved family pet. The only thing I can conclude is that there are things of value to him other than money. I still have a warm feeling for him...a complete stranger who I'll never see or hear from for the rest of my life.

We are a very curious species.

Bob...

Rob Brophy

>I've seen two Stanley #1's in the wild. The first, I bought for well under ten bucks with a clear conscience. The price was clearly marked on the plane and I didn't haggle. The family was selling off another family member's woodshop and were only interested in the $...there was no sentimentality (or respect) at all for Grandpa's tools. All other prices (all power tools) were optimistic...probably 3/4 list for well used tools. Finding this little plane was a gift from somewhere and it was appreciated as such. I am not religious (tho' I live in an old church), but believe in karma and paying it forward.

When I found a second #1 at a yard sale, I told the elderly owner exactly what it was, what it was worth and how to get the most money for it. I gave him the name and number of an ebay consignor that I knew would be fair to him. Tears welled up in his eyes when he heard how much the little plane was worth...these people needed the money. These little planes are uncommon, but I don't think they are as scarce as everyone thinks.

And I gotta admit to getting a similar cool feeling when someone is so quick to judge another without having all (any) of the facts.

Re: And of course

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Bob,

I see it this way. If a person is set up at a flea market, yard sale, antique shop etc, etc, and are selling obvious antiques and have them grossly underpriced, than I have no qualms about buying them at that price as they more than likely had the time, ability, and resources to do some research on the value of the items that they are selling. More than likely they are thinking smugly to themselves that they got the better end of the deal by selling that little paperweight for $10 to that sucker whom just bought it.

If one the other hand an old widow is just cleaning out stuff because perhaps she is soon to be leaving her home for iother accomadations such as a nursing home, or to live with friends or family than that in my eyes is a different situation that's all.

Just something about taking advantage of old folks, children, mentalily challenged folks don't set well with me is all. I hope that if when I get old and should go feeble minded, or am out of touch a bit with what's going on that somebody would look out for me. Perhaps its a simple case of "What goes around comes around" but that's the way I feel.

Todd O.

Rob...

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>You illiustrate my feeling exactly.

You're a good man for doing what you did with the second #1 and I am Proud to know you. Sure you passed up on a darn good gloat no doubt, but dosen't the good feeling that comes from doing a good deed far outweigh a good gloat. Seems to me that the gloat of doing such a Noble thing is the better gloat anyway.

Todd O.

Touch�...please accept my apology, Rob.

WoodburnBob

>As much as I didn't want to believe my words could harmed anyone, your final comment showed me I had. I went back to examine what I'd written and realized that anyone who'd actually bought a #1 for $10 might have felt accused and insulted even though that certainly wasn't my intent. You are exactly correct that it was very poor form for me to spout off on things of which I have no facts or information. For all that I hope you will accept my sincere apology.

I understand what Todd is saying and agree that context and circumstance in such deals both matter a lot. Your two examples are crystal clear to me. I don't dispute that in the first case what you did was completely reasonable and probably fair to all involved. In the second case, I think you showed uncommon generosity and kindness.

My great failure in this thread was to indulge my egotism and pompously wade into ambiguous content. I won't do that again. I truly am sorry.

No hard feelings, Bob...

Rob Brophy

>...I enjoy your posts and hope you will continue to share with the same enthusiasm! No harm done!

You did bring up a valid point though...it is creepy to be gloating over ripping off unknowing sellers. But on the other hand, I was at a yard sale yesterday where a lady was selling her son's collection of original late seventies, Star Wars figures and spaceships for twenty bucks...she said to the dealer who bought it that she didn't care what it was worth, she just wanted it "out of here".

I think there is a big difference between people selling because they want to and people selling because they have to. Each yard sale/flea purchase is different and one just has to examine the circumstances and act in a way that lets you have a clear conscience...Just don't think about it too long or Todd O and I will scoop that #1 out from under your nose!

Re: Here's a 4th way

Todd Hughes

>I had a good friend that found not one but two no. ones at give away prices.He saw one at a Steam show with some other planes and when he asked the price was told "12" he honestly thought the seller ment $1,200 which would be the going price and put it down.Then a guy next to him picked up a no. 5 and was told "12" as it's price also ! My friend curious now asked what would be the lowest the seller would take for the no. 1 and yup you guessed it he got it for $10. The other one was a very early type missing the tote which he found in a box of block planes and got for $5

I have never found a no. 1 at give away prices,[but I will!] but I have bought quite a few more vaulable items on the cheap that is for sure.One of the best was an unusual pre civil war Bowie knife bayonet that I bought off an old black guy for $5 after another slow head increadably put it down after trying to get it for $4! Seller told me when I bought it he knew it was a $5 knife. I asked him if he had any $10 ones. I have turned down $3,500 cash for it.Another time bought a drop dead 1750's engraved powder horn worth at least several G's off not one but two old widow women sisters for less then $20. How do i sleep at night? Quite fine thank you! I don't see how I did anything wrong , the only reason I knew what the knife and the horn,[or no. 1 ] was worth was because I took the time and the effert to become knowledgable to what I buy and or sell,[though in these cases I bought both items for me and not to sell] something any one else could do as well.Why should I reward people that are to lazy or stupid to go to the trouble that i have gone to to gain this knowledge? I don't expect or look for people to watch out for me and hold my hand when i buy something and i certainly don't think it is my job to do that for sellers.Really it is the same as somone that works hard all week and then you expect him to go out and give his paycheck to some bum on the corner that is to dumb or lazy to work, I doubt if anybody would say you were bad if you didn't do that but I am being asked to give extra money out of my pocket to some seller that won't take the time to learn about what they are selling! Frankly I think those that think this are pretty well removed from the realities of the bussiness of buying and selling tools, antiques, etc. to think that you should pay a seller more then they want for somthing, really living in a fantasy world.Sort of like sausage, if you like to eat sausage probably best not to think to much about where it comes from. Where do you draw the line? Lets imagine you are "Tool Seller Joe" and you see a widow woman with a $10 no. 1, good dooer that you are you tell her it's worth $1200 and give her the $1,200 now you sell it.What kind of price do you put on it? Guess you could put $1,200 on it and set under your photo of Lenin and feel good about yourself and wonder why you don't have any money.Remember if the seller of the number 1 is asking $10 for it is because they got it for $5 or more likely for nothing. The only reason you can buy any old tool whether off ebay, an on line seller or the old widow woman at the flea market is because the person you are buying it off bought it off some one else for less.....Todd

Re: Here's a 4th way

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I guess techincally I don't work for a living any more; I set in front of a computer most of the day, 9 hours a day or so, but still have to do a lot of communication in the shop so do some walking as well, it is a large shop. I am basically making a living off of my knowledge, instead of my back. Is this wrong?

I see the tool buying scene as the same thing, exactly like Todd Hughes was saying. At a flea market this weekend I saw a set of Stanley #4 trammel points like new in the original box for $12. How did the seller come up with the price? They didn't ask me how much they were worth, they just wrote down how much they wanted for the item. I paid them their fee; they were happy, and I was happy. I got paid a little bit for my knowledge. As a side note, I am not going to sell any of the tools I have in the box, unless I fall on desperate times; if my daughters don't want them, they can sell them. And they are going to know exactly what I think they are worth, and have the name of a reputable auctioneer to use.

I enjoy "collecting", and the part I enjoy is the hunt; looking at tools, and looking for tools. This probably is wrong, but it is part of my human nature; perhaps I'll outgrow it. But I see nothing wrong with getting paid for my knowledge.

Re: Here's a 4th way

Tom in Tipp

>I agree with Todd on this one. As long as the seller gets out of the item what they want the buyer has no 'duty' to tell them otherwise. We buy and sell antiques and as long as I get my price, I'm happy. Do I regret selling something and hearing it went for a higher price later? Nope. It's a business, you can't get too involved on any other level than 'stuff for sale'.

Tom

Re: Here's a 4th way

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Agree with ya' 100% todd, except on the Powder horn issue, but hey, that's me. Selling has never been my strong suit, I couldn't make a profit if I bought Dollars for Dimes. :~(

I certainly understand the concept of business, it's simply that I draw my line at doing what I consider to be wrong to an old person doing a one time sale is all, even tho I do agree that it is the sellers responsibility to know the value of what they are selling. However, if a old person is set up at a flea market I'll grab it in a second because how am I to know if they've been in or are in the antique business or not?

Coarse, on the other hand, I've never been in this situation, so I might be lying to myself eh?

Had a classmate who in '79 bought a '64 vette off of an old lady who advertised it as "old chevy for sale $500". This thing was about mint!

He totalled it two weeks later, and I always felt that he deserved it for cheating the old lady out of several grand.

Bob, no harm, no foul on my part either.

Todd O.

Oh, no...I say to myself...

WoodburnBob

>...not only did I unintentionally insult Rob, who quite to his credit was very kind and generous in accepting my sincere apology...but I unwittingly provoked retaliation from you, Todd, as well. And...who knows how many others, actually! Perhaps a seething silent majority, he says to himself, quietly moving into a self-destructive phase of much deserved masochism. If this were a country club or a university faculty I suppose I'd be on my way out this very evening with my things hastily stuffed into a paste board box. Failure. A life over for want of discretion and self-control.

Had I been smart enough to simply withhold my opinions, I wouldn't now be in the position of taking a lashing as a "good dooer" living in a "fantasy world" beneath a "photo of Lenin". Alas, in this thread I must still show my face and take my fair share of punishment in order to avoid further compounding my fate by seeming cowardly as well as ridiculous.

Todd, I now see you must have experienced my opinions as a boot in the groin or a threatening condemnation of your dearest beliefs and reasons for living. For that I am sorry. But it is true, I do have a problem with the idea of obscene profit, particularly when premised only on specialness (special linage, special friends, special knowledge, special connections, special timing) and advantage over the sea of unspecial dullards and riff-raff like myself.

I suppose you and I might never agree, with one believing firmly in a flat earth and the other just as firmly believing in a round earth. It's too bad we can't just disagree and assume we each have a somewhat different viewpoint. But that's simply not the way humans are.

Re: Oh, no...I say to myself...

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Nay Bob, I think all is well. As you said we are a curious species and we all do things abit differently for different reasons is all. I myself, had I bought that mislabeled infill wouldn't of given it a second thought to call the seller and say that you had bought it at a bargain price. I fiqure if this seller had enough knowledge and ability to be able to out it on e-bay in the first place than it was his/her loss if they didn't get full value for it.

At any rate, either way, I don't think any less of anybody. I do stand by my belief that if I was in the position of buying a $10 #1 from a widow that I'd inform her of her mistake, now I'll throw in a extra twist to that as well. I've met some pretty miserable widows in my day, and if I thought she was a miserable ol'#itch, and her husband was in fact better off dead than to put up with her miserable hide for one more second, than I'd probably not inform her. I don't like mean people, especially mean nagging women and would consider it as "You get what you give". Nag, nag, nag, nag. Curious eh?

If it'll make you feel any better Bob, I'll flog you 99 times with a gossamer shaving. ;~)

Todd O.

The Difference.....

Todd Hughes

>If you believe the earth is flat, while I might think it is round I'm not going to tell you should believe my way or you are moraly inferiour. If you want to give the seller of the mythical $10 no. 1 plane $1,200 while i personaly think that is a little strange and even stupid I don't make it a moral call and say that you would be wrong, just not any of my bussiness, even though it seems some would have no trouble saying that If I bought it for the asking price of $10 I was using the sellers "Ignorance" as a license to comit theft and I would be wrong and basicaly stealing it.Of course often it is easy to make such moral calls if you have removed yourself from such temptations and instead prefer to buy your tools from others and suport those morally inferiors that have bought these tools for less then they are "worth" to sell to you for a profit.....kinda interesting, eh?.....Todd

Lennon not Lenin...

Rob Brophy

>...and I'm happily living in a fantasy world under his picture.

My-o-my Bob, you *do* have a flair for the dramatic :-). I don't think anyone has been insulted, certainly not me...We are a diverse group of people with a common fondness for handtools and quieter times. Men and women from around the world who are comfortable enough with each other that we don't worry about spelling, grammar, and run on sentences. I love reading the posts here..it's like being part of a casual conversation , with people writing as they speak. Quite often the inflection is open to some interpretation, and I always try to reread a post several times before I post a reply just in case.

We're all from different worlds, physically, socially, financially...some of us are too busy to wander through flea markets looking for tools so we buy a Lie Nielsen (there's no shame). Others can't scrape up the dough for a new tool but we have Sundays off, so it's search in the morning and sharpen in the afternoon! Some of us feel strongly about fussy Japanese tools and others couldn't care less. The common denominator is that we love to play with hand tools...whether it's using, sharpening or searching for them, it's still playing.

I enjoy reading the gloats and weekend finds on this forum, how Ernie has saws piled up everywhere, and how Todd H gets up at 0dark30 to drive three states over to hit a prime auction every other Wednesday. But I don't think I've ever heard anyone in this group say that they've found an ultra rare #38 burfl for ten bucks and sold it for thousands. Most of the gloats here are about things found for ones "collection" not resale. Knowledge isn't "specialness"...if you know something exists and you look for it, eventually you'll probably find it.

Another point about the #1 I bought...it was found at 10am after the yard sale had been in full swing for at least two hours...I had knowledge that it was something I wanted, so I saw it where dozens of people before me didn't. But how do I know that it wasn't sitting beside and rare multi thousand dollar beanie baby? I don't, and I could care less.

Don't hold back you're opinions Bob, you won't be sent packing. There's a beer waiting for you here on the deck...Rob

Business law (rambling)

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>I remember being quite startled, when I took a business law course some years back, to find that there are two theories in law, both fully supported by case law,* one of which says a buyer with special knowledge owes nothing to the seller, the other of which says the buyer who uses special knowledge to take advantage of a seller can be sued!

Myself, I stand with the other folk here who feel that the seller's situation makes a difference (and, as I recall the discussion of these conflicting theories in civil law, so did the law - but it's been some years now, so I could be wrong). I bought a (parental warning: power tool content) Porter-Cable jigsaw a couple of years back from someone who gave the impression of being a little slow mentally, and who said "yes" to whatever price people were offering at his yard sale. All I could afford at the time was $25, but after I used it a couple of times and realized how much better it is than any jigsaw I'd ever owned before (the first time I used it to cut some plywood, it cut right through the 2x4 the ply was resting on without even slowing down), I went back and gave him some more money.

Foolish? Yeah. Did I sleep better after? Yeah. And I got to see the Christmas ornaments he was making, and how proud he was of his work and of his daughter, who was in the shop - a fine repayment for a little money.

*Civil law is based on common law, i.e., what everyone understands to be so rather than on laws passed by legislatures, and is further elaborated by case law - the findings of significant court cases. Lawyers, of which I am thank goodness not one (it would make me crazy), often spend their working lives picking out the precedential case that supports their client's case best, while the opposition party does the opposite, thus keeping publishers of legal tomes in business.

Complicated

Todd Hughes

>Let me get this right. If I have taken the trouble time and expense to become knowledgable to what i buy and sell i can be sued because i don't give the seller more then he is asking for somthing if it is below what is a fair price or what i think I can sell it for? Now say a crafter that wanders into the $10 no.1 and they buy it because it is cute and want to paint it pink to go with a flower araingment they are OK because they don't know what they are buying and haven't gone to the trouble i have to know.Talk about rewarding ignorance.Where is the line drawn? How about a no.1 priced at $500 for sale? Maybe a $900 one? Would I be wrong to take advantage of these sellers since I would still expect to make a profet on thier no.1. How about that no. 7 I buy for $5 and hope to get 10 times that for.Am I supposed to give a fast IQ test to people I buy tools from and if they fall in the slow head range I have to pass on their underpriced tools or pay them double what they are asking.How about smart city people that are "dumb" about tools though what kind of sliding price scale do I give them?

Wasn't going to admit this but last Sat. at the flea market I found a mega nice early curved leather knife that I think may be 18th cent. Asked for the price and was told .10 cents[!] I told the seller that was to cheap and instead gave him .25 cents......Gee hope I'm not getting soft....Todd

Nope Todd

Bob Hackett

>You`re still a rock,and a true capitalist nabob.Don`t let these socialists sway your way of thinking.

After all,someone`s got to fleece the widows and slowheads or we wouldn`t have anything to talk about now would we.I say wax up your mustache and get to it.

Mainely,Bob