Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Are the others that bad?

Stephen in Ottawa

>Hmmm, are all other chisels but the LN really that bad?? I have a set of Marples blue chip chisels that I got from LV several years ago and while they are not the prettiest, they have served me well even in hard maple and oak. I've also heard others in this forum report good experiences with the Marples chisels and the Two Cherries. I am waiting for a couple of Two Cherries firmer chisels ( straight edged ) from European Handtools. Is it all that difficult flattening the backs of the Two Cherries? Now you've got me concerned, though I can't imagine someone spending days flattening a chisel back. I don't spend that much time on plane blades which are much wider.

- Stephen

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Rod Cole

>I just popped over to teh LN site and could find no mention of chisels, got a link?

TIA

- Rod Cole

A Question

Todd Hughes

>Why is it so important to have the backs of chisels so absolutely perfectly flat?.......Todd

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Paul Kierstead

>Well, as a counterpoint.

I have LV yellow handles. They seem to flatten, sharpen and be of use without difficulty. I did not have to do an extreme amount of work flattening them; now mind you, I only flatten 1/2 - 1" of the blade (is there a good reason to do more, assuming it is not convex?) They sharpen fine and seem more then capable of fine woodworking, for my meager skills anyway.

I also have some Japanese chisels. I will admit they hold an edge and seem to get sharper then the LV's.

Perhaps you got some duff ones. Or perhaps I don't know the finer points of chisels.

Dean, I don't think you're

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>comparing apples to apples here. My Marples work very well for the work I generally use them on (never will one of mine see a paint can lid). Many brands of chisels will compare poorly with the beautiful new offering from LN but, IMNSHO, I don't think that relegates them to the catagory of paint can openers. You may want to consider sending me those bad blue chisels (I'll pay postage) in exchange for a legitimate chrome plated paint can opener...I'll even throw in a genuine wooden stir stick ;>)!

I bought a set of Bracht chisels on *bay and am amazed by their performance. They are my #1 go to tools for fine work. I've pounded through an awful lot of 7/8" hard maple with the 1" chisel (8 boards chopped completely through) and there is no sign of chipping or other damage to either the top of the handle or the cutting edge. It won't shave hair but it will cut paper and pare wood ;>). I paid about the same for both sets of chisels.

Lee Valley stands behind their products as well as any Vendor and much better than most. Perhaps you might consider taking the subject up with them off-line before flaming them publicly?? I guess what I'm saying is that a great tool is great because of its own qualities, not because it's better than a dissimilar product from vendor X. Please don't read what I'm saying as a defense of LV (they can speak for themsleves) nor as criticism of you. It's just my reaction to your post and my way of trying to point to the tone of civility that is so attractive in this community. I know you're going to love your new LN chisels! RANT OFF

I think so

Christopher Schwarz

>Chisel faces (usually called backs) for furniture making should be flat for some jobs.

If you sharpen only at the tip, you are creating essentially a knife-like edge with two tapers or bevels. When you go to pare one surface flat to another you use the face of the chisel against the work as a reference. If the cutting edge isn't in line, you won't pare exactly flush. You then lift the chisel handle to get it where you want it. If you overcompensate (a common problem) you dig in to your work.

Also, when chopping out dovetails or squaring out corners a chisel tip shaped like this will wander forward because of the shape of your edge.

For carpentry and rough work, I contend a flat face isn't needed. But for furniture work, you notice a difference. Most people just sharpen at the tip and try to deal with the shape of the edge by compensating with technique. They usually end up blaming themselves for a wandering tool instead of the tool.

Chris

Right here:  *LINK*

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>


LN Chisel

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I appreciate your observations, comparative reports are of more value to me than other forms.

I'm not sure, however, if I would have had the same experiences or drawn the same conclusions.

I have quite a few sets of chisles. With respect to bench chisels I have fairly complete sets of everything from black handled Craftsman (yes, really), yellow handled Buck, Octagonal Handled Sorby's, old Greenleys, and now the new L-N. I also have my share of various other chisels including a half dozen Japanese specialty chisels, a full set of Henry Taylor crank neck chisels, sets of Marples and Sorby mortice chisels, a complete set of Sorby paring chisels, and a host of other detail and skew chisels. I make this tedious list because I want to make a point. I have tuned all of these chisels without excessive effort, and I use them all from the Craftsman to the LN. I mean it, I use them all. Everyone one of these chisels have some attribute that the others don't, and thus everyone of these chisels meet some need at least slightly better than the others.

Are the LN chisels outstanding in most respects, yes they are. But I like the range and handle sizizng of my Sorbys, prefer the added length and balance of the Greenlees for many larger tasks and when using a mallet, like the short stubby in close capabilities of the very cheap Bucks, and like the shear ruggedness and long side registration of those notorious black Craftsman.

There are a lot of different tasks that a chisel is called upon to perform, and those tasks are approached differently according to techniques learned and personal prioritization of a wide range of ergonomic and use factors. I love my Octagonal Sorby's. I like their graduated sizing, their balance, and that they never roll around. Edge retention is not big deal to me, both because is have power sharpening systems that make edge maintainance easy, but also because I have other chisels (mostly the Greenlees) I prefer for chopping tasks. I really like my short handled Bucks for detail work in close. I find times when the long, fairly flexible blades of the Sorby paring chisels are invaluable, or the crank necks of the Henry Taylors. I often use a very cheap set of skewed dogleg chisels (from LV), indeed, I probably use this set as much as any other chisel.

There is also the issue of wood. If you work in the sofer woods, the added edge life of A2 is not as meaningful as if you are working with abrasive teak or rock hard ironwood.On the otherhand, if you are regularly chopping in oak or cocobolo, the edge retention issue may factor more highly.

So, yes, the LN is a great all around chisel, and I see myself using them a lot (haven't had them long enough to know for sure). But lots of other chisels can work great for the woods and tasks a given woodworker most commonly encounters.

So while I believe you have been accurate as well as candid in your reporting of the circumstances faced by those in your woodworking class, I am not quick to assume its applicability for me, or others. Sometimes a cheap set of LV or Buck or Marples chisels will allow a lot of work to be performed successfully, that simply wouldn't have take place of the woodworker had to scounge up the price to pay for the LN. So I for one, am not so readily dismissive of the alternatives, even though I am most pleased to have added a set of L-N chisels above my bench.

Highjack question Lyn...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>How do you like your Taylor cranked necked chisles?

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Mitch

>Does anyone know the web address for Furniture and Cabinetmaking magazine?

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Don Clark

>I have a couple of Lee Valley plastic handled chisels. Mine were ground very well and it took very little time to get the back flat. However, my experience was the same as yours with the steel. One tap into hard wood and the edge bends over at the factory ~25 degree edge setting. I sharpened mine at 30 degrees and now I sometimes get 3 or 4 taps before the edge buckles.

People worked wood before steel, before iron and even before bronze so these chisels can be made to cut wood. But in todays world, it seems a little silly to produce chisels that soft. My cheap Home Depot Buck's may be twisted and I may never get the backs perfectly flat, but you can tell that the edges are steel and they will get and stay sharp for a reasonable amount of time.

Don Clark

Re: Cranked neck chisels-HT

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I love cranked neck chisels and the Henry Taylor are the best of that breed that I've found.

You can afford several sizes for what a bullnose or chisel plane costs and they will do much of the same work, often offering more registration area. You can get 1/4 and/or 3/8 chisels that will clean up small grooves and dadoes that you won't ever find a typical plane being able to fit into. I particularly find the 1/4 inch size useful.

So I both like and use mine a lot, and haven't found anything any better than the Henry Taylors.

If I were to edit your review...

Ellis Walentine

>...I would want to delete or change the conclusions that are spurious, hyperbolic or mean-spirited -- or that appear that way. As I've learned over the years, the only way you can earn the respect of tool manufacturers is to be scrupulously fair. Don't hold back from telling it like it is, but don't embellish the facts. As soon as you allow emotions and biases into your reporting, you've diminished the value of your review.

That said, we certainly encourage folks to post reviews here. It gives others a chance to read and agree or disagree as they see fit.

Best,

Ellis Walentine, Host

I think your a tad brainwashed

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Dean wait till you have actually taken the time to flatten and sharpen your own chisels and do a proper comparison. It takes a while to form your own opinion you haven't had any time to recover from the hand tool boot camp. Jim

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review *LINK*

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Mitch they don't have a website. The only site is the Guild of crafstman publications and there is nothing there but I added the link.


http://www.gmcmags.com/

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Alan Hamilton

>Dean,

That's quite a review. But like others, your experience doesn't match mine.

I have a set of Hirsch bench chisles, which I'm told are identical to Two Cherries, and I had none of the troubles you mention. The only annoying thing about them was removing the lacquer that covered the steel--but even that wasn't really trouble; they spent one night in a can of lacquer thinner and the next morning the coating sloughed off. Flattening their backs and getting the bevels and backs mirror bright didn't take any more time than any other similar tool. It would take a great deal longer if I hadn't first removed the lacquer coating.

I also have a set of Two Cherries mortise chisels--your "pig stickers." I haven't been able to give them a thorough work out yet, but they all flattened and shined with no trouble. I also appreciate the big handles and their heft. I have big paws and their size makes it easier for me to steer them.

My first chisels were Marples--not the blue chips, but a set of bench chisels and a set of mortise chisels with red and yellow translucent handles. They're not as good as my Hirsch or Two Cherries, but they are quite servicable and worked well for the many years I used them.

Alan

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Alan Bierbaum

>Strange how different people get different results from similar products; but it does show up. I have not seen, much less tried the LN or LV chisels; however, I do own and use Marples blue chip, craftsman, off-of-the-shelf Stanleys, and Two Cherries. I work mainly in Hard Maple, oak, hickory, poplar and Alder. I find that both the marples and two cherries flatten easily, sharpen easily and stay sharp in actual use for dovetails and other fine furniture use. The craftsman and stanleys. I tend to use for rough work.

Lie-Nielsen and woodworking schools

Jane

>I've spent a lot of vacation time lately at woodworking schools. At each one, L-N was held up as the best. I wonder if the schools receive L-N products at no charge, in order to give L-N some publicity...the L-N tools are really good, but what is most important is the skill of the woodworker. A skilled woodworker can make beautiful things using even cheap tools from the racks of Lowes or Home Depot...

Thanks Lyn!

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>

Re: Status

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I think maybe the biggest problem in this class is that those who decided not to spend a week's pay on a set of chisels were probably a little embarrassed by those people in the class who appeared to have more money and blew a wad of it on a set of chisels. I would guess that the LN chisels are probably a bit better than the average chisel to date, and I'm sure the other manufacturers are going to have to play catch up. My concern is that those people just getting into woodworking will think they have to spend thousands of dollars just on chisels in order to do decent work, and this is simply not true.

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Steve Wargo

>While We do have a fair assortment of Professional or Semi-Professional Woodworkers here, I think that the vast majority are weekend hobbiest. I'm not toaking about only the people who post here, but the countless number of people that happen to drop in and only read this website. Therefore the fact is that Lie-Nielsen Chisels still cost $250 for five chisels. I've known excellent cabinetmakers who suffice with only Blue Chips. And I know hobbiests with complete sets of Witherby's. Most any chisel can be tuned and used for specific tasks, Even if it's not for every task. I have about 12 Two cherries Bench Chisels and a complete set of the HUGE Sorby mortising chisels. So what if it takes a long time to flatten the backs. You only have to do it once. And I've gone through everything from wenge to mahogany. They all work well. I may have to touch them up on occassion, but that is simply a fact of life. If you don't want to sharpen then buy stock in a sand paper company, or a power router, or a mortising machine. It's not fair to slam Lee Valley (Who's product I own none of) just because you happened to buy the Ferrari of chisels. You're really comparing apples to coconuts. Rob Lee often makes outstanding contributions (with his knowledge) to this website, and Lee Valley should not be slammed by your very skewed beliefs.

My Rebuttal

Dean in Burlington

>Sorry some of you took offence to what I said but anytime someone says something negative about Lee Valley everyone goes ape. Let me explain this further. I have no beef will LV and own a lot of their stuff. I have no intentions of taking back the LV chisels seeing I paid $10 a chisel for them and I really didn�t expect great results. I bought them because I figured they would be a good starter chisel for woodworking and when I found a better chisel I would relegate these to carpentry and lending to neighbours. I paid $10 for them and got $10 results. What I was �disappointed� with...is this such a bad word...was that the president of the company gave the impression that these were some how better than $10 chisels. As I said you get what you pay for. Ellis...I don't think that was so bad.

Lyn and others. I love your reviews but you and others are obviously very skilled at woodworking and probably could use a butter knife for a chisel. What I am giving you here is reaction and feedback from beginners to intermediate woodworkers. Myself and other here don�t get the shop time most of you get. I don�t have time to work on tools when I only get about 7-10 hrs of shop time per week. What I and other students saw was for our skill level which won�t improve as much as some of you full time woodworkers is that the LN chisels gave better results, stayed sharper longer and took less time to flatten. This to me is a huge advantage seeing I want to spend my quality 7 hrs a week woodworking, not working on steel.

Now I wouldn�t exactly say I blew a wad on chisels. I commute to work 40kms each way by bike so while you�re blowing your wad on gas I�m blowing mine on quality tools. Maybe the gas companies have you brain washed :)

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Dean in Burlington

>Steve...please read rebuttal below. I don't think I really slammed Lee Valley.

You should see his bike

Rob Cosman

>I hear a lot of talk about blowing a wad on chisels as if these (L-N's) cost thousands of dollars. A quick walk through any shop and it is hard to spot a decent corded tool that doesnt cost at least $250. After learning the hard way I wouldn't waste money on a router that was less than $250. Chisels get used more than anything I own and will be with me as long as I last. I am guessing $250 is not a wad for most on this forum, you paid a lot more than that for the computer that allows you to read this message. If you want to talk expensive, get Dean to tell you about his "bike", I had a chance to ride that puppy, didn't want to give it back. I will let him explain that but what a difference quality makes, for evey pound of force I exerted it gave back two! Some guy named Lance Armstrong has one just like it.

Rob, LN Canada