Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

John Pappas

>This more of a rant than an objective review. You are certainly entitled to express your opinions, but to title your message a "review" is a bit of a stretch.

Hey Rob...

Martin from Granbury

>When are there going to be more chisels in the L-N product line? Specifically, I would like to buy a LN fishtail chisel, or "Rob Cosman half-blind dovetail chisel" like in your video. Also, more sizes of LN chisels would be great!

Re: My Rebuttal

DaveH

>Hello Dean

I just want to say that I was at the same course and Dean. I saw firsthand the frustration that Dean had with the Two Cherries Mortise Chisel and he wasn�t the only one. There was another person who had the same chisel and they spent many (I repeat many) hours trying to flatten the back Also, considering that this is suppose to be a high end chisel she was surprised to learn that the sides of the chisel weren�t even at 90 degree angles to the front. I didn�t have a mortise chisel so I did buy a LN Mortise chisel but since I am new to woodworking I won�t comment on the difference in cutting quality between the two. I will say that I flattened the back of my LN in about 20% of the time this other person did. I can tell you that when this person tried the LN mortise chisel they were very impressed and like the fell much better than the Two Cherries

I did purchase a set of Marples Blue Chip chisels from Lee Valley and being a novice it took me about 3 hours to flatten the back of ONE chisel. The guy beside me who had the LN chisels took about 15 minutes but I will I will admit he was an experienced woodworker and was much better at the waterstones than I was.

Like I said in a previous post I would suggest that if anyone is thinking of purchasing chisels or planes that they test them out themselves. I have seen people on this message board rave about certain brands and I have seen firsthand in this course that they are nowhere near as good as these people say.

By the way Dean. As a fellow cyclist I take exception to you comment on �blowing your wad on gas� You know as well as I do that it is much cheaper to drive a car than a bike....... Those bikes aren�t cheap. ;-)

Re: Hey Rob...

Rob Cosman

>The next release will be the 1/16th sizes up to 1". The mortise chisels are in the works, the half blind you mentioned is also in the works. I never know actual release dates but I am as anxious as you. Be sure to read Chris Schwartz up coming review, due out in a couple of weeks, I had a sneak peek, just what you would expect, the title was something like "best in the western world". David Charlesworth also reviewed them in the current F&C, I believe someone already mentioned that. Better tools make a craftpersons work more enjoyable.

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Mike G.

>I've got an old set of Craftsman socket chisels I wouldn't trade anything for. They work great for me. I also use the Off the shelf Stanley's and get good use out of them. I also visually inspect tools for flaws before I buy them. When I get them home or to the job and start using them, if they don't measure up, I take them back and either trade them for another tool or get my money back. If the store wants your tool business, they will make you happy.

Mike G., who has a small tool budget and has to get every penny's worth out of it!

Absolutely CORRECT!

HC Sakman

>

buying tools for school

joel

>School should not be about who has the fanciest chisels and how much time is needed to fix them up.

I was very fortunate that when I studied cabinetry the school provided all the tools and in the early sessions would not let you use your own tools. THe only think you had to bring to class was an exacto knife and a few pencils.

This way the entire class was the same level and we didn't waste class time conditioning tools. And the teacher didn't have to explain to students and waste class time why stuff doesn't work (happens more times than not).

I think also having students buy everything before a class is bad too because one great thing about classes is you should get a wide exposure to different styles of working and have a chance to try everything - not just the tools you already committed too. Not to mention being a little knowledgeable when you finally buy stuff is really useful.

In the first lesson everyone learned to sharpen the shop chisels. They didn't teach us grinding and then trust us to grind them until really late in the semester. You would poke around in the chisel bin when you needed a chisel for something the right size and hope it would be sharp but usually you would have to sharpen it.

I don't think I started buying tools until the second or third semester. but it took me years to accumulate my basic tool kit and I was really greatfull that I didn't have to do it instantly.

This brings up my question about.....

HC Sakman

>....high end Japanese chisels.

What's the difference in between $100 and $300 (both 1"wide)?

I know their steel alloys and/or forgery techniques may be different, but in ACTUAL USE... is there any difference?

$100 chisel gets re-sharpened in 6 months, but $300 one lasts 18 months? What's the difference?

I agree that $10 chisel works as well as the $100 chisel but edge holding properties MAY differ greatly. (This is just a general comment, I am not referring to any specific brand.)

Although, as I always say:

"Every horse runs depending on who's riding."

Chico...

Review or Opinion?

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>A review provides data to support conclusions, and a well thought out experiment to collect the data.

Lyn has set the standard for such reviews and because the standards are high his reviews have great credibility.

It is doubtful that LN has discovered any secrets to tempering the commodity M2 tool steel (I have been told the LN's are M2) Fine woodworking has reviewed M2 chisels and compared to many others. I have made a M2 chisel and I have compared M2 steel vs other steels in controlled chopping tasks using high quality digital photomicrscopy to compare edges. From this experience I can well believe that the edge retention of the LN is substantially better than a Marples chisel for chopping. But I am highly sketpical that they are more than slightly better than Two Cherries/Hirsch or good Japanese chisels, if in fact they are better at all. I will remian skeptical until someone provides data from a well designed experiment.

The LN are certainly some of the finest looking chisles to be had and that in itself is a good reason for some to buy them. But I am quite confident that new or experienced woodworkers do not have to spend that kind of money to get a chisel that will hold an edge in chopping operations nearly as well or even as well or better than LN.

90 degree sides

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I always assumed that the Two Cherries design was influenced by people like Frank Klause who advocate some relief on the sides of mortise chisels so that they can be steered easier (see video). When I made my mortise chisels I too relieved the sides and I like the result.

Re: Cranked neck chisels-HT

Howard Pollack

>Can you tell me where the Henry Taylor cranked necks are sold? Thanks. -Howard

LN mortise chisels?

Howard Pollack

>Where do you buy these, I havn't been able to find them on their web site. -Howard

Random flatness, instructors and experience

Todd from San Jose

>From my experience, the flatness of chisels (and plane irons) is a bit more random from chisel to chisel, rather than being brand-dependent, as you have concluded. If you were to take another identical group of new chisels and try to flatten the backs, are you sure that the LNs would be flatter than the others? I think maybe, maybe not.

I wonder if your opinion would have been the same if you had attended the woodworking classes I have. One of my instructors (who's opinion I highly respect) recommends Two Cherries as one of his favorite brands. Another instructor at another school said he didn't like them.

I went to a hand-plane class once where the instructor used almost all wooden planes (ECE Primus and Japanese planes). My classmate, who had recently bought a stable of Lie Nielsen planes, wanted to sell them and buy wooden planes, because he was swayed by the instructor's personal preferences. On the other hand, I know another instructor who uses and recommends Lie Nielsen above all others. What's my point? That sometimes the instructors' opinions and woodworking techniques can influence your own, even if you don't realize it.

Now, for some personal experience that conflicts with yours. I have a set of Twin Cherries mortising chisels, and I didn't have to spend 3 hours flattening the backs- maybe 15 minutes. These are outstanding chisels that will take a beating and hold an edge. I also have some Marples bench chisels, some were very easy and others were very difficult to flatten.

My final point is that experience in sharpening can dramatically affect how long it takes to flatten a chisel back. You know from your class that if you're using water stones and rock the chisel ever-so-slightly, it'll take you forever to flatten out the round that you just made. And if you're not careful about constantly re-flattening your stones (especially the really course ones), you'll be flattening a heck of a lot longer than someone with more experience.

-Todd

Re: Cranked neck chisels-HT *LINK*

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Here is one source I have ordered from.


http://www.cuttingedgetools.com

My chisel experiences:

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Jim, Rob must have formalized the impromptu chisel test that we gave a prototype LN chisel two years ago...here's what I posted then about a comparison between the LN chisel, the LV chisel, and the Marples blue chip chisels:

Review of LN Prototype Chisel

More Comments.

As for the Hirch mortising chisels, I had a bad experience with them. Even though every Hirsch mortise chisel that I've seen was "defective" in my opinion, a retailer in Canada verified that their stock didn't have this defect.:

Hirsch Mortising Chisel.

As far the the Lee Valley yellow handle chisel - I own one of them. It sharpens up nicely but doesn't hold an edge as long as some Army surplus chisels that I bought at a disposal store. It took a bit of work to flatten the back of the chisel (more than I expected given the sparkling write up in the LV catalogue, but it wasn't too bad.) I'd say the LV chisel is about on par with the Marples.

I think a lot of the resistance to your post has to do with an objection to the price of the Lie-Nielsen chisels rather than an objection to your review of the performance of the LN chisels compared to the others. If price was no object we'd all own LN chisels - from what I've seen they are the best performers (and I also own some two cherries chisels). However, when you start to consider performance per dollar, or value for money there might be better choices out there for some people.

Re: piles of money

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I understand that these chisels are probably not priced in relation to the cost of manufacturing, but simply priced at what LN thinks that people will pay for them. That's fine with me, and if I live long enough I'll be spending a small fortune on all the 1/16" sizes up to 1' wide, probably one of each of what they make. They are good tools, and I enjoy using a good tool. But if you compare the cost to what the average manufactureres are charging for their chisels, you'll notice a large percentage of difference in the price; this is why the chisel is considered to be an expensive chisel. I have looked at some japanese chisels that are also expensive, but I think they are probably putting a lot more work into those than LN is into their chisels.

If I buy a set of chisels for $250, I get 10 parts; 5 chisels, and 5 handles. I will probably tear the handles out and make my own out of nice exotic woods, so technically I'm only getting 5 parts. I bought a Bosch router, I think #1632 EVS, don't remember the price for sure but think it was less than $200 and it's a good router. It has hundreds of parts, and I'm sure a lot of time and effort goes into making the parts and assembling them; this is why when I compare buying a set of 5 parts versus buying hundreds of parts for the same price, the 5 piece set seems expensive to me.

Re: A Question

kees

>alway think of the video of Tage Frid.

Tage will be LOL in his grave about the back flattening item.

kees

My opinion

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Try as we may to objectively compare tools, to a certain extent it all ends up for nought. Chisels and metallurgy are complicated subjects. Learned guys here disagree. Folks throw around terms like toughness, with little undertrsanding of what toughness really is (I'm talking about FWW's review not anybody here).

In the end, it seems to me that really subjective criteria and experience really count. Dean's review is a single data point to be considered and respected as that.

To help put Dean's remarks in perspective, I'd like to know more abouit the skill level of the sharpeners in class, and what equipment/materials they were using. I think you mentioned waterstones? Maybe you can say which grits? Techniques?

Here's my take:

I think there is a line with chisels. Chisels that can't make it through a project or one day, are junk. Just not worth buying. Sooner or later, you will want to put in a full day, and you won't finish your work because you have to stop to sharpen your tools. No good.

On the otherside of that line, I think you need to consider how long it will take you to rehone. I worry about really hard chisels, or CPM-3V chisels for this reason. I want to be able to rehone in 5 minutes without some exotic materials or electric appliances. Although I don't have any, I think japanese chisels are well thought out. Ditto for the western laminated chisels (and plane blades) where the hardened edge is thin.

Besides all that, I think you need a handle and a blade shape that supports the work you do. Inexperienced guys seem to hold chisels like tennis raquets. Unfortunately manufacturers make handles for these folks.

Adam

Re: Lie-Nielsen (and others) chisel review

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Dean,

Thank you for taking the time to post an account of your experience with your chisels at the woodworking class.

I have a couple of questions which I hope you have the time to answer:

1.) What was the class about?

2.) What method and materials did you use to flatten the chisels?

3.) What sort of wood were you chopping?

4.) What were you making? (i.e., dovetails? mortises?)

5.) Do you know of any online pix of the LN mortise chisels?

Thank you,

Don

Re: LV, LN, (Long and Pointy)

Todd Stock

>Dean:

Interesting thread...let me see if I can summarize your notes:

- $10 chisels behaved like most (new) $10 chisels

- $20 chisels behaved like $10 chisels

- $50 (really $40, given cost of tool roll) chisels behaved how you'd expect $50 chisels to behave.

- Having tools that don't work as well as those your classmates are using makes learning a bit more frustrating

With tongue in cheek, I�ll offer the following:

- Critical review of a particular vendor's product always produce lots of steam and sparks, but shooting at LN, LV, Two Cherries (I've just always called them Double Cherries), and absolutely any of the little guys making stuff and posting here is heresy unless couched in polite terms (see next para).

- Develop �review speak� skills before offering anything resembling reviews. Instead of "...this tool blows chunks...," you might consider something along the lines of "...a fully adequate tool for those working in balsa wood� or better yet, �...a perfect beginner's tool for those interested in improving their sharpening skills through repetition.� See � no one gets upset and you sound ever so much more knowledgeable.

- Newbees should post only questions. Stay away from opinions (and far distant from reviews) until the mandatory 10 year period of purist hand tool use has elapsed, and all electrons have been flushed from your shop.

- Beginning hand tool classes don�t have nearly the number of crotchety old contrarians that can be found in a more experienced group�say, like here.

With tongue removed, here�s what I think�and this would be opinion, versus review:

- Some really adequate tools take a lot of time to prepare for use (e.g., the overbuffed Two Cherries chisels and Hock blades)

- A sharp blade makes up for a multitude of other shortcomings in many tools, and a dull edge will fold faster than a sharp one. Sharpening skills are the most important factor in tool satisfaction, and are totally out of the control of any manufacturer. I am certain that the LV and Two Cherries chisels mentioned are totally different animals when tuned and sharpened by those lauding them.

Closing thoughts:

- Thanks for your note; well worth the read even if I don�t agree with everything.

- Worthiness is in the mind of the user � don�t let the lack of $50 chisels (or $3 chisels for those old tools folks snickering in the peanut gallery) dissuade you from tackling your next project armed only with beater Blue Chips.

- Although it rubs some folks here the wrong way, guys like Lee and Lie-Nielsen are smart enough businessmen to realize that not every product they make or market will meet the needs of every customer.

- Vendors and manufacturers posting or at least lurking here do so because they want the feedback � even when it�s none too positive.

It's Saturday AM - get back to the shop and enjoy!

Economy of scale

Tom Price

>

If I buy a set of chisels for $250, I get 10 parts; 5 chisels,

and 5 handles. I will probably tear the handles out and make my own

out of nice exotic woods, so technically I'm only getting 5 parts. I

bought a Bosch router, I think #1632 EVS, don't remember the price

for sure but think it was less than $200 and it's a good router. It

has hundreds of parts, and I'm sure a lot of time and effort goes

into making the parts and assembling them; this is why when I compare

buying a set of 5 parts versus buying hundreds of parts for the same

price, the 5 piece set seems expensive to me.

Parts is parts but I think you have to remember that LN is a boutique manufacturer, and I believe that they manufacture in the US. They probably even pay their employees a living wage. I expect that Bosch routers are made by the hundreds of thousands in a real factory. Wonder where they source all of their parts from. If your Bosch is like my Makita, some of the non-critical parts are stamped and the body is injection molded plastic.

Having said that, it'll be a cold day in you-know-where before I spend $50 on a chisel unless it's a rare Stanley Everlast and I think I can double my money. I have piles of Swans, Witherbys, early Buck Bros, Everlasts, etc. and they seem like pretty good chisels to me. Most of them were $2 or less. So, obviously I'm not LN's target market. I expect LN does not consider their competition to be 2-Cherries or other such brands but the midrange and up Japanese chisels.

Not at Marc Adams...

Martin from Granbury

>Jane, I envy your ability to attend more than one school per year.

I got to attend a course at Marc Adams last summer. I asked Marc if he got his tools for free or at a deep discount. He said no, he always paid retail for his tools, as that allowed him the freedom to say what he thought about them when asked. I think that says a lot about Marc Adams.

Some Wrong Lines Here....

HC Sakman

>"- Newbees should post only questions. Stay away from opinions (and far distant from reviews) until the mandatory 10 year period of purist hand tool use has elapsed, and all electrons have been flushed from your shop."

Although I agree with the general point of your statement, I think it's far from necessary to "flush electrons" and to be(come) "purist" in order to judge hand tools.

Experience is indeed crucial though.

Chico...

This is where we go wrong...

HC Sakman

>Please folks.... In woodworking there's always a different way of doing the some task. All due respect to Tage Frid, if he says "I don't bother flattening the blade backs" that does not mean it's wrong to do so and it should not require him to move in his grave. (R.I.P. to him.)

Absolutely NOBODY can be "the woodworking god". There are so many variables in the field, method and execution permutations seem infinite.

Chico...

Re: My opinion

DaveH

>out of 12 people in the class I would say that 3 or 4 were experienced sharpeners.

we used 1000, 4000 and 8000 Waterstones. The majority of people in the class were using Norton Waterstones