Workbench decision

Re: Roubo

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Jeff,

Didn't Roubo draw some really complicated benches? Pretty sure he shows cross sections of tail vises. Or does he refer to those as "German"? That could be.

The bench that Tarule built is strongly in the French tradition that stretches back at least to Felibien's 1676 pictures.

By my definition, the French bench is a long narrow thing, with maybe a hook, maybe a leg or face vice. Legs are drilled for hold fast holes, and are flush with front edge of bench. Top looks like its 2-3".

The English bench in constrast is made from very thin lumber and has a deep 12"+(?) apron, drilled for holdfasts. It can have a crochet (hook), (horizontal) face vise or leg vise. CW built theirs of SYP.

The German bench is the shorter guy with the thick top and the tail vise. (like my bench)

Scandanavian's added that crazy face vise.

Those are my definitions. I'm not saying I'm right. Just for clarity sake. Both the French and English benches are simple to the point of being crude, so I think they deserve our attention more than the others. Building OR buying a bench is an obstacle for many.

That's why I love Bob Key's bench. Its encouraging.

Now one more thing about Scott Landis.....

Adam

just now learning when enough is enough

Agreee with Adam, sort of

Angelo in Cornwall, NY

>While I don't agree with Adam on all points, I agree that the bench sould be suited to tasks. My current bench was built before I beacme enlightened to hand tools. Using mostly corded stuff, leverage and body weight became less of an issue then comfort (not stooping over). I'm 6'3" and found that at a "normal" height bench, or kitchen counter for that matter, my lower back hurts after a couple of hours' work. I took my old sawhorse bench and blocked it up, 1 1/2" at a time, and worked at it for awhile. My back stopped hurting when I hit 39". that worked great for awhile. How much leverage do you need to push a router or a sander? Jump ahead a year or so in my world and hand planes come into play. try pushing a jointer plane at above elbow height. No too effective. And because of that darn Titebond II, taking the base apart to lower things won't work. I guess a new bench is in order.

At least I got the weight thing right. Tips the scales at near 600 lbs, thatnks to two layers of 1 1/2" MDF, a layer of 3/4 ply, and the 4x4 legs.

Dr. Barnett, Dr. Barnett to the O.R.

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>

Re: Jointing first, then x-cutting

Jeremy Osner

>On my current project I have a lot of boards to flatten. My first thought was, it would be more efficient to flatten and resaw them before I crosscut; but as it turns out, (a) 8' boards are too long for my bench and (b) I'm not confident of my ability to accurately joint a long board. So I've been cross-cutting them a couple of inches long, then jointing and resawing, then doing the final cross-cut.

Re: Workbench decision

Charles

>No shame in buying one. There are many people who make a career out of building projects for their shop. If you feel like it, buy a bench and move on to the next project.

Re: Roubo

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Granted, the Scott Landis book is shop porn (not in the Miss Makita sense of that phrase), and some of the benches he shows seem unlikely devices, but I've found some useful concepts in his book, including the angled leg vise and another version of the "dog on a rail" tail vise approach that BugBear mentioned in his post (both something I'd like to try, if only [a] work and [b] projects on the house would stop interfering with my shop time). I found his book helpful in encouraging me to think beyond the usual bench designs, just as his Workshop Book (another fine example of shop porn) encouraged me to think about shop design. The Toolbox Book, for me, is straight fluff, but I understand that others have found some useful ideas in it.

Oh, and at the other extreme

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>My current bench is a solid-core door sitting on top of a plywood nest-o-cubbies, with rigidity provided by screwing the door to a ledger that is in turn screwed to the studs on the wall. The end vise (sorry, Adam) is a little Record face vise, the face vise a rather odd Wilton combo vise that I don't especially like (it was $20, and an interesting experiment, but not the best design) but haven't had time to replace. Kind of a blue-green, ugly as day-old sin, splotches of glue left over from my son's attempt to glue something up on it without protecting the top (he did manage, barely, to miss gluing my router to the benchtop), and way too short (but no matter, the shoplet's too small for a longer bench).

But I get work done on it, and it's flatter than the bench on which my grandfather made three times as much work as I ever have.

Re: Tail vises (long-sorry)

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>I Nicholsonian-ised my present workbench with a front apron with rows of holes for pegs. My version is only 6 inches deep because that was the scrap width I had to work with.

This is an extremely handy feature, particularly as my current bench is otherwise a complete POS that isn't anywhere near flat. This is why I Nicholsonian-ised the bench as I could guarantee that these holes are in a straight line therefore I should (within the abilities of my hand tool skills) be able to plane a board straight. Something you can't do with a concave bench and narrow stock without the beam strength to withstand the forces of planing.

A new bench is a very high priority (recall my questions a few weeks ago) but there are even higher priorities on my list at present .

By the way Adam, you were right about the Roubo bench with the tail vise. Roubo referred to that as the "German" bench. It also had two tail vises with the second one sliding in a slot similar to a sliding board jack. This is a feature I am considering incorporating as well. The two leg vises could be used on either side of a wide board or to hold a longer board to name two usage examples.

As for the tail vise, I think I will still do it but I will decide that later.

The eternal bench height quandary...

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>My current bench was designed (if that is not a too grandiose term for it) for marking and layout as well as power tool use. Hence it is a little high for some hand tool operations. Some hand tool operations could be better performed at a greater height. Examples of which are cutting dovetails so that I don't have to stoop too far to see clearly. Sight being another part of one's constitution that does not improve as one ages :-)

Anyway, if your bench is too high, try using a plank next to the bench to stand and walk on. I hit on this idea because I have a painter's plank that was fortuitously next to the bench one day (I was too lazy to put it away). I slid it over to the bench and used it while planing.

To my mind, this is a far better option than a variable height bench as it is mechanically simpler as well as mechanically stronger than any solution I've seen so far.

I like this idea so much I am planning to have a plank/platform hinged to the legs of the bench. I can then fold it down or up as I see fit. I could also forsee that it would be possible to have multiples for different heights but I intend to start off with just the one.

2 leg vises

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Mark,

That's a nice feature. I use a (jorgensen)holdfast at the back end, which can work, but it also marrs the lower edge of the board when I set it.

Anyway, the thing I like about the second leg vise as opposed to a simple peg, is that you can restrain out twist. Its also good for match planing. You really want those boards held tightly together. Though you could do that with a hand screw cramp in some instances.

Thanks for checking up on my Roubo remarks.

Adam

HIJACK: Pennsbury Manor

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>"we have them at Pennsbury"

What is your association with Pennsbury?

(let me guess: you are the master cabinetmaker, and I am the only one who doesn't know)

Re: HIJACK: Pennsbury Manor

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Don,

I volunteer at Pennsbury Manor. The shop is only open once a month or so. There are several other guys I work with there. We do our best to interpret the life and times while trying hard to reproduce furniture for the exhibits or effect repairs. Otherwise there's a considerable amount of fat chewing. I recently completed modifying and tuning a set of bench planes and other tools, so hopefully this season will be a bit more productive. For those of you in the area, be sure to plan a visit and come ready to work!

There is no "Master" as such; we're just not that organized. I also wouldn't characterize myself in that way, I don't have that skill level, etc, etc.

Sorry if my sideways references to Pennsbury seemed exclusionary or cliquish.

Adam

Re: Roubo

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>Yes, Roubo illustrated the more complicated German bench but when folks talk of a "Roubo" bench, I believe it is commonly understood to be the simple French style bench. One reason that I like the Roubo over the Nicholson is the ability to use a clamp on the front of the benchtop (since there is no apron). There are situations where where a holdfast is problematic. On the otherhand, the advantage of the Nicolson over the Roubo is that it is easier to joint boards that are shorter than the span of the legs since the apron allows midspan support. Tarule illustrates how to do this with the Roubo, but it is a bit more clumsy.

My main point for those that have yet to build their first real workbench for handtool use, is to start with one of these simple designs, learn the techniques, and if you still feel that you need the more complicated systems, then you will have developed the skills that will be required to do so.

Technique, technique, technique.

OT: Improvement with aging

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>"Sight being another part of one's constitution that does not improve as one ages :-) "

There's something (besides treachery) that DOES improve with age? Pray tell me, Mark, what is it?

Some advantages to this approach

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>If you've got a board with any serious curvature, cup, or wind to it, cross-cutting first will minimize the amount of material you have to remove to get a 4-square board, so this is not necessarily a bad approach.

Anyone looking for a

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>workbench might want to check out

Veritas cast iron legs *LINK*

David Barnett - Venice, FL

>I love those Veritas legs and plan to buy a couple sets for auxiliary non-woodworking work surfaces; one which will be about ten feet long. Besides their looks, which I really like, is the ease of setting them up just how you want them. I wouldn't even mind the shorter 27" pair for a computer table. I've heard they ring with a nice low tone when the top's struck just above the leg, too.


Veritas Cast-Iron Legs

Re: Veritas cast iron legs

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I too love the Veritas cast iron legs. I have a set on my work bench and another set for my lathe bench. They are absolutely rigid and easy to set up. The ringing you have heard of does not come from the legs themselves, but from the tension rod that is part of the stretcher system. That rod can vibrate and generate a considerable tone, though not necessarily an objectional one. Eliminating the tone is fairly easy by either closing off the dual stretchers (on the full size legs, the smaller version only uses one) to form a box and then filling the box with sand. Such an arrangement dampens the tension rod and eliminates the ringing. It also adds a little weight and lowers the center of gravity of the bench. You could probably also wedge some hard rubber in there at a couple of different points and also reduce/eliminate the ringing, but without the other desirable effects.

Anvil chorus

David Barnett - Venice, FL

>Ah... I thought that might be it, owing to experiences with other shop furniture (my woodworking, repousse, and jeweler's benches, my anvil stand and current toolchest base are all truss rod construction). Normally, I'd find such tones quite acceptable. However, I now have my large Yamaha piano across from my woodworker's bench (some have shop stereos - I take piano breaks). My jeweler's bench is also in my shop and on that same tile floor, although somewhat away from my woodworking venue.

It was late at night and I was tired from unpacking, so I sat down and started noodling the G-flat Schubert impromptu, a somewhat pensive and dark piece. The acoustics of a semi-empty high-ceilinged and tiled room were already stark enough without the downright spooky and spine chilling tone that grew ever louder as I played, not for much longer, though. Turns out the captured leg rods in my jeweler's bench (44" tall, at that time) were all just about (but not quite) in tune with each other and the piano wires. The effect was ghastly. I damped the rods with the packing foam lying everywhere and forgot about it for a couple months, until I built the anvil stand, albeit with much shorter and thicker rods. They got the foam treatment, too, but not until they did their little trick. Anyway, since I no longer need to set stones at eye height, I lowered the bench height to 38", but I made sure to put the foam back in before reassembling.

I think I'll try your suggestion of hard rubber to mute the rods when I build with the iron legs. It seems straightforward and would probably not show at all. I hadn't thought how nice a lathe bench they would make, but I'm pretty sure it'd be overkill for my Taig (yet another LV purchase).

Re: HIJACK: Pennsbury Manor

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Sounds like a great enterprise to be involved with. I remember seeing a picture of you in what I believe was period costume (?), so I wondered how involved you were over there. If I ever get up that way, I shall be sure to stop by to see the Manor.

Great Story

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>

Rob Cosman Bench *LINK*

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>If you have the jack, I suspect that this is a fine bench. And the maker is a WC frequenter.


Rob Cosman Workbench

He would tell you, but he forgot it already.

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>

Re: OT: Improvement with aging

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>Temperament -- I used to be even more curmudgeonly :-) Seriously though, I am far more patient than I ever was with human weakness. After a while you realise that people go through different experiences or phases in their lives that can affect them in ways that maybe you can't describe, but you understand the effects either from personal experience or close observation. In short, I cut the human race a little more slack.

Perspective -- Also called experience. After a while you realise it wasn't just a sense of "deja vu". You really have experienced this before! I experience this sensation frequently when listening to senior executives!!!! OTOH, you can join the dots and see how things got to be why they are.

All that said, it's a short list! :-)