Workbench decision

Re: Workbench decision

Ron in Kokomo

>Hello there

I haven't seen you in forever. How is it going?

Re: buy the top build the base

Russell Seaton

>Agree. $330 for a 24"x84" 2.25" thick maple top from Woodcraft. $160 for the Veritas Twin screw vise for the end. You do not need any other vise than the Twin screw on the end. It serves as an end vise and as a face vise if you mount the screws 16" apart, which you can do if the bench top is 24" wide. If you want to waste money you can add a Record quick release face vise for $125. Or a cheap Asian one for $50.

Make dogs out of dowels.

For the base, use whatever you have handy or can find cheap. 4x4s from Home Depot or something for legs and 2x12s for the stretchers between the leg assemblies. Personally I hate softwood bases and prefer to spend the money for a hardwood base but you can get by with a softwood base until you want a nicer looking base. Figure $40 for the base wood.

Drill 3/4" dog holes with a router bit or drill. Whatever you like. I spent $25 on an extra long 3/4" router bit to plunge drill the holes.

$550-$600 total for a very useful, adaptable, and high quality bench. BETTER than any of the Sjoberg benches being sold. I've seen all of the Sjoberg benches at Woodcraft and Woodsmith. Not as useful or nice as the one I just described. Even the $2000 retail one. Its vises were cheap.

To add extra weight to the bench, build plywood boxes of drawers to sit on the stretchers. And put a bottom on the stretchers and fill them with sandbags. Then put the plywood drawer box on the stretchers. And screw the plywood crawer box to the legs. Solid and stiff.

Hi Leo, If you decide to buy

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>you should check out Deifenbacher and the Ulmia benches now available again thru Garrett Wade. The Lee Valley setups are nice too. I would stay away from the Sjobergs as they are somewhat flimsy. Worse than their tendency to rack and sway under heavy planing use is their somewhat "iffy" vise hardware. Inspect one carefully the next time you get to a Woodcraft. Grab a hold of either vise after you open it up about a couple of inches and then shake it hard with just one hand. The whole bench will shimmy and when you close the vise again it won't line up perfectly with the benchtop. I think they are vastly overpriced for their level of quality and belong only in the shops of powertool woodworkers who seldom use a bench.

It's a must do thing

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I think it's more of a must do kind of project. The tail vise took me more time to build and flatten the top and it's still not flat so I will build a smaller bench maybe 5' tops just for handplaning. I would consider buying a top if you don't have a planer and jointer.

Re: If you buy

Leo Boudreau

>Geez... I have a decision about made to buy a bench and then I read more opinions and now I'm back to thinking of building my own bench again.

Anyway, I talked to a friend today and as it turns out, he has a pile of walnut that may be available. Has anyone heard of a bench made out of walnut? My concern is that it can be kind of oily and glueing could be an issue.

I also have a line on a nice old 8x8 20' beam of old Chestnut that came out of an old barn. It's being used as a support a backshed in a large greenhouse right now. I don't know that I would use that on a bench or not. But it's nice to start to find such wood available.

walnut and chestnut bench

John K in Hastings, MN

>No problem using walnut or any other hardwood. I really like the contrast you can get by using walnut, maple and/or cherry in your bench, even if just for edging. The chestnut would be kind of a waste for the bench, I'd save that for something more visible like furniture.

I picked up a pile of plainsawn cherry at auction last year. Not much of it is really high quality, but there is a lot- and I got the whole pile (250+ bf) for $50 so what's the downside? I might keep the wide boards for other stuff (up to 18" wide on some parts) and rip the rest for building up a bench, edging it with fiddleback maple and walnut pegs.

John

Walnut & maple bench

David Barnett - Venice, FL

>Walnut makes a great bench base, in my opinion, as it is handles shock wonderfully, is easy to work, and is kind of pretty. As far as a top, I prefer a lighter wood for my aging eyes. The bench I built was easy to construct, simple in design, and not a lot of money. The base was resawn from 16/4 rough walnut from Steve Wall, which I had shipped from NC to MA, where I then lived. I got over twice what I needed (over 40 bd ft) for around 220 dollars which included UPS shipping. The FAS rock maple I bought locally (3.35 per bd ft) came to about 150 with some extra left over. The top is about 7 feet long and 21" wide. So, with the vises; 150 for the Veritas twin screw and another 100 for the Record 52-1/2ED, epoxy and truss rods, odds and ends, it came to around 675 dollars. It doesn't rack. It doesn't even wiggle. Although it's plenty heavy, I'd read that it's a good idea to build one that's twice the woodworker's weight, but I really don't think I want one approaching 43 stone.

More importantly, though, I built it to fit me and the way I work. Rob Cosman said it right: "Nothing commercial is going to be exactly what you want and I cant think of a more important tool in the shop to have customized for you."

I don't like a low bench, expecially as I probably do less scrub planing than some galoots (although it's no strain at all at this height for the relatively short periods I do such things), and more detail and carving work than many (lutherie, lettering, etc.), so 37 1/2" works best for me (still short of Michael Fortune's 39" high bench in Landis' "Workbench Book"). A narrow bench makes sense to me. If I build another, it'll be narrower still. Adding my own face vise allowed me to mount it proud of the skirt board (the top's 2 3/4" thick throughout). Also, I like three rows of dogholes, which makes it very convenient for the two Veritas holdfasts I couldn't live without. The back row is nice for panels, and so on, but is especially handy for the several articulated lamps I am constantly repositioning.

Works for me, anyway.

Re: 2 extremely cost effective designs

paul womack

>Monumentally stiff, very cheap pseudo-shaker bench

Bob Key's famous first bench

And you only need a 9' bench to plane 8' stock if you plan to make 8' items. I've got by pretty well with a 5' bench for the last 5 years, but then I make small items.

It's your bench, and should suit your work.

BugBear

clean shop award candidate?

Jack from Maine

>David, Your shop looks like a laboratory. Nice bench.What is that dark piece behind it on the left?---Crackerjack

Tail vises (long-sorry)

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Frank,

There have been several discussions on this topic over the years. I�m usually among the minority advocating against the tail vise. Others swear by them. I have one and use it, but its not trouble free. Mine has store bought guts from Woodcraft or Highland Hardware.

In use, I�ve found it has sagged. As the vise goes out, it goes down. When planing long stiff stock, the first movement with the plane pushes the back end of board down, pops the front up, and then down. Slowly this rachets that forward dog down until one plane stroke sends the board off the bench. There are other solutions to this problem, but this is relatively typical.

I've been wondering if a simple vise mounted to the end of the bench wouldn't work just fine so long as it had a dog in its jaw that lined up with the bench dog holes.

I think this is a really bad idea. Well�.many guys build like this, and its easy to do. You want that dog row no more than 1-1/2" from the front edge of the bench. That lets you use plows and other fenced planes on narrow stock. The tail vise screw must be right underneath or behind that last moving dog. That puts the screw right in the corner of the bench and that�s the point of the traditional tail vise.

With a normal bench vise, you�ll have some racking caused by the distance between the dog and the screw. That offset works in two directions by the way: top to bottom and side to side. This manifests itself by spitting boards up or out or both. Your solution is to tight en the screw which makes the problem worse and bows your stock. I think some guys use the Veritas twin screw vise to solve at least one of these problems (side to side). No matter what you do the structural inefficiency of having the dog and the screw in two different places is going to cause trouble. Though I have no experience with Veritas� twin screw, I�d think they�d sag over time, just like my tail vise (which has a much better load path).

Some of the world finest furniture was built on benches without any vises. For me, this represents some opportunity for woodworkers because they are so simple to build. I�ve used benches like this and I like them. I like having the right end unencumbered (no tail vise whatsoever) for using a bench hook. Otherwise, you�re stuck using the back left end which forces your bench to be free standing (typical of 19th century factories).

I�m doing the best I can to answer your question. I�m going to try to sum up:

1) Tail vises are great, except they�re tough to build and may have problems down the road, which can be so bad that the effort to build them appears wasted.

2) Face vises on the back end of the bench aren�t a great substitute for a good tail vise. They have all of the problems and none of the advantages.

3) Scott Landis doesn�t know jack about work benches, or at least he�s not telling us what he knows. I think his coffee table book has caused more problems than its solved. The point of the book seems to be "the best bench is the prettiest bench". I�ve learned to ignore (that�s too strong a word) any woodworker who doesn�t work entirely by hand. When guys like us challenge these folks they say, "Oh , I just run that through my powermatic�.". I trust the guys here and I trust Williamsburg. I don�t know whom else (Landon?) builds stuff by hand alone.

4) I think the default bench should be either the Nicholson bench (used in Colonial Wiillamsburg) or the French bench (used at Pennsbury Manor). I think either can be set up to work like a japanese trestle (which is a pretty darn good idea). Properly accessorized with bench hook, a crochet, and holdfasts, a good planing stop, etc and I think you have the bench of a Master. A twin screw face vise with garter-less wooden screws is a nice addition (we have them at Pennsbury- I have one on my bench here).

Adam

Re: clean shop award candidate?

David Barnett - Venice, FL

>"David, Your shop looks like a laboratory. Nice bench.What is that dark piece behind it on the left?---Crackerjack"

Heh... looks even more lab-like with the microscope on the jeweler's bench.

The 'dark piece' behind the bench is a very old vise some craftsman made for sharpening his saws, probably on site, as the base has several nail holes. I use it for my larger handsaws.

Re: Tail vises (long-sorry)

paul womack

>Ignoring Adam's anti-Landis flame bait, I'll mention another possibility.

If your purpose in having a tail-vise is to hold long pieces down on the bench top for planing, use this "dog on a rail" tail vise design instead.. It can never sag or rack.

To repeat myself, your bench should be fit for your work.

BugBear

Re: Workbench decision

Alice Frampton, UK

>Leo,

I have an ECE one, which I think is pretty similar to the Ulmia?, and it's long, heavy and very nice indeed thank you. I thought long and hard about building, but came up against too many negatives. No reasonable supply of affordable materials, some health issues for the maker (me), I wanted a tail vice (sorry, Adam) but didn't relish the prospect of the hash I'd probably make of the job. :~S But the clincher, like Adam argues, was that I couldn't see the relevance of the skills I'd learn making a bench to what I wanted to make later i.e. furniture. So I stumped up the cash, swallowed the bill with only minimal choking and I've been very glad I did ever since.

As to the Sjobergs, my dad has one (buying benches could be a hereditary thing I suppose...) and I have to agree with the Dave Anderson. It only gets used for rough work now, and that's after completely replacing the legs and stretchers in an effort to persuade it not to walk across the floor every time you breathe out :~( Don't get me started on the vices...

Good luck with whatever you choose, and don't feel pressurised into making one if you don't want to. Sure, so you'll be made to feel bad every time somebody says "building a bench is a rite of passage for the woodworker" or posts pics of their new aircraft carrier of a bench, but on the other hand you'll have probably had about 2 years use out of yours while they were still deciding what vice configuration to go for ;~)

Cheers, Alf

Buying vs. building

David Barnett - Venice, FL

>Both you and Adam make a strong case for buying, and I think I'd have bought an Ulmia or Dieffenbacher if I'd not had the excellent opportunity to try out several workbenches in the shops of those who'd bought or built them.

In the mid-90's, when I lived in Northampton, MA, I took classes in adjoining Easthampton, in a renovated factory that housed a good number of private woodworker's shops and a woodworking school. Touring the shops, often in one to three day seminars, I got to see a surprising range of benches; everything from an exact Tage Frid w/dogleg, a close copy of Klausz', a couple Ulmias, and so on. Silas Kopf had a big maple bench with the first Veritas twin screw I'd seen, and he also had his bench up on 4" blocks. He said it made a big difference. I saw a massive and long, very plain English joiner's bench with a Record 53, which I found I liked. David Powell's shop (this old mill was famous as the Leeds Design Workshops) with his bench and tool cabinet (shown in "The Toolbox Book"), was worth a few hours of observation.

Well, let's just say I decided over a few months of such exposure that I wouldn't be happy with a dogleg bench (I'd already bought some massive 16/4 hard maple for vises, endcaps, whatever, for a Klausz style bench). And I found I rather liked Record vises, after all. I also wanted a twin-screw. And maybe most of all, I found I like narrow tops and taller legs that violated the 'closed fist' rule. There wasn't anything commercially available that fit my needs, so I just built one.

Yes, I learned a few things building my own bench, but that might not the most compelling reason to take that particular plunge. One thing I learned was that bench building can be more like wood engineering than woodworking on the scale I usually do. If you're going to build liturgical/ecclesiastical interiors and furniture, then sure, maybe it's a 'must'. But... if you already know what you want, and it isn't one of those catalog benches, then building's probably the only way you're apt to get it, so...

I guess this doesn't really help all that much.

Re: Tail vises (long-sorry)

John Kissel

>Hi,

While I agree that tail vises aren't essential and that many pieces of outstanding furniture have been built on benches sans tail vise I strongly disagree with Adam's comments about Scott Landis' workbench book. It is a helpful resource with many good ideas in it that are well presented. As with most things, you can pick and choose that which suits you and leave the rest behind.

Paul, that is a snappy looking "dog on a rail" tail vise that you've posted. I've been planning on adding one of those to the back of my current bench as a supplement to the regular tail vise (homemade from ideas in S.L. book and still functioning well after 10 years). Have you built one of these yourself? I'm interested in learning how you went about it and the challenges building it presented. If not yours, could you post a link to the maker?

Regarding materials... It is possible to build a bench that functions well and also looks good by using various genera and modifying dimensions to fit what is available. I cobbled mine together using walnut and old mahogany patternmakers stock for the base and maple with a few pieces of cherry for the top.

Re: Buying vs. building

Tom Huett

>Wow, am I lucky. About a year ago I was looking to build a "first bench". At least 200 bucks for anything. Boss comes into my office one day and asks me if I am interested in any of the things in his mother's estate. I jokingly said "Yeah, a workbench". He looks like he has seen a ghost and says "How did you know my grandad had left one in the estate?! Short version of story: Drove 200 miles each way and paid $200 for a bench of white oak with a maple top, 8 ft long, quick action vise and another utility vise, etc etc.

Someday I might build one but I doubt it.

Tom

Walnut's oily?

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>Never heard that before. Regardless, it glues fine, and you'd be wedging and drawboring joints, anyway, right? ;)

Re: Walnut's oily?

William Duffield on the Cohansey

>No, walnut wood is not oily. The walnut oil comes from the nuts. I've never had any problems with glue adhesion on walnut.

Re: Tail vises (long-sorry) *LINK*

Dean in Burlington

>Hi John,

This "Dog on a rail" tail vise is on the Woodsmith European Workbench plan. I too intend on building this. I have been going back and forth each way with either traditional tail vise or "Dog on a rail" and after reading Adam's message I am definately going to do "Dog on a rail". It is also cheaper and much easier to build.


http://www.plansnow.com/eurobench.html

Re: 2 extremely cost effective designs

Dean in Burlington

>What ever happened to Bob Key? I never see him post on this site. I go to his web page often.

It's much cleaner than my lab!

MikeL in SoCal

>

9' bench explained

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>When I built both of my benches, I sized them for the projects I intended to build. I figured the longest case I'd ever build would be 4' or so, so a 6' bench would be more than adequate. I don't have a big shop and I knew floor space would be helpful. I sought as compact a bench as possible for this reason.

I made my bench 28" wide so I could comfortably hold a windsor chair (which I have never built) or any 20" wide case. Make sense so far? It did to me.

Now to some extent, I've had some project creep. My wife has me doing some architectural work at the moment. I need to work 8' stock, but just suppose for the moment you'll never end up there.

What I (and Scott Landis) missed, was that the bench needs to support operations, not projects:

When making that 4' long carcass (case), 3' tall, you start with a 6' or 7' board. You plane it smooth, and true the edges, then cross cut it. Now you have two perfectly matched sides. Ditto for every carcass, including drawers.

Suppose your carcass is 4' wide and 18" deep. Now you need to square and stick over 7' of molding to wrap its three sides. This is the justification for a 9' bench. Forget the fact that the raw lumber you want to work comes from the mill at 8'. But most times its more efficient to work long stock, then cross cut.

What I would have like to have seen Scott Landis discuss in detail is, given each particular bench design, how would one:

1) Surface plane- How do the vises work? Which hold better? Allow more flexibility?

2) Edge joint- How are boards of different length supported? BTW, Most of the benches in the book have no provision for this essential task. Why? Because all those woodworkers have electric jointers just out of the picture where the "real" work is done.

3) Molding, planed joinery operations. Dadoes.

4) Sawing? Doevetailing? Several bench designs offer no real provisions for sawing. Why? That's all handled over there in that dusty corner on that machine. When I make a carcass. I often need to dovetail a corner that's 18" wide. What vise holds that?

Scott Landis could have asked been more analytical, made an attempt to understand each bench design's strengths and weaknesses. Instead, he choose to make a coffee table book treating each bench like a work of art. The only bench that got a serious look was Ian Kirby's and I suspect that has more to do with Kirby than Landis.

My advice for new bench builders:

1) Skip the Workbench book. It won't help you.

2) Travel to Williamsburg or Pennnsbury or some local guy who works ENTIRELY with hand tools (regardless of your intentions) and ask how they accomplish things.

3) Make a list of every basic operation you are likely to encounter. Ask yourself how YOU could hold the stock. Make sure your plan is stiff enough. In your plan, allow yourself the use of holdfasts, (which hold stuff down but don't provide any other load path) hand clamps, planing stops (including holdfast shanks), and the like (you can do a lot with bar clamps).

4) Buy or make all that stuff (you'll need it anyway), then mock up your bench top out of 2x10's and saw horses or some such and try it.

5) Make the bench as long as you can stand. 12' isn't too long. At least 2' of a bench is constantly cluttered with stuff you are too lazy to put away since you'll need it again in 20 minutes.

Poor Scott Landis. He's probably a hell of a guy, and I've been raking him through the coals. I'm an engineer and I see stuff always black and white (or so my wife tells me).

I've been thinking: I should hold a workbench clinic. Guys could come and we'd build the thing together (it really takes a bench to make a bench). I could work out the tough stuff ahead of time. You could try one just like it before you start building. That's really the answer. That's the way it was done 200 years ago.

All the best!

Good luck you bench builders!

Adam

Re: 9' bench explained

Luke Herzberg

>I like your explanation there, Adam. Look at the operations you are performing and think about how your bench functions with each one.

I suppose that is why my bench has undergone about a dozen design changes and still isn't done. Right now it is sitting on a crate, upside down in the middle of the shop with its four legs sticking up in the air like bloated roadkill. The bottom of the bench (its current top) is covered with a clutter of tools, sawdust and shavings. Just getting to the point of having that working surface has caused me to start other projects rather then finish the bench!!

- Luke

Roubo

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>Adam,

I would add a Roubo style bench to your list of simple, yet effective benches. I thought perhaps the French bench you mention is a Roubo, but the twin screw face vise would distinguish it from the optional leg vise found on the Roubo. (and as found on your own bench if memory serves-acutally you have the best of both face-vice worlds)

In describing his decision to make a Roubo style bench, Rob Tarule* states,

"I also made it as an antidote to Tage Frid's bench, which was so bloody complicated with its hundreds fo moving pieces."

*as found in the aforementioned glossy Taunton coffee table decoration :-)

Come on Bugbear- OT

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Come on Bug!

Take the bait! Grab it! Looks good, doesn't it. I hear he's French! Yeah, how 'bout that?

Your a good gentlemanly man and you've long ago earned my deepest respect. I don't disagree with you and I never will.

Pretty sure Scott Landis eats babies on Sundays, though.

grab it! Take it!

Adam

MooooWhahhahhahHAHAHHAHAHhhhhahahahahahaha

(deranged laughing)