Alternatives to Windows

Peter, i noticed something else. I have always bought a refurb late model PC like big (thin) pig with the 12 core CPU and big ram. 

The workstation I got that's coming tomorrow was $279. it's probably from 2020 or 2021, a dell 7540, I think, and hopefully not touch screen. 

The same county waste stream agency has slightly older HP 840s (not a fan, wife has one - but they fill basic computering) for $150 ish for a tested and working PC with a win 11 install. that's obviously coming right off, so it doesn't matter. that's dirt cheap. 

I'll look over the 7540 format. I saw an old review from 2020 saying the bulky even for then format allowed for two SSDs and a 2.5 inch drive, so it may be that I wouldn't even need two PCs to have two different linux installs - just two SSDs. 

the big PC with the broken keyboard and touchpad that otherwise works fine has a 256 SSD and a TB 2.5 disk that can be put in a USB case (arriving in the next couple of days). 

Either way, that there are four core PCs with an SSD and 16 gigs of ram for $150 is a bit of a shock to me. Getting away from windows will take a lot of the need for the PC to do much away, and SSDs or separate USB drives for storage sort of decentralize keeping files and make the PC itself more throw away. My personal budget of $600 per 6 years for a PC may be able to shrink with linux. 

I remember nothing of linux other than CC or something (C compiler? it's so long ago, I've forgotten. i can barely code hello world now, so how much effort in command line linux will depend on how interesting it is).

thanks for the encouragement.

Web posts and articles like to make this more complicated than it is. Most of it is due to "muscle memory" and resistance to learning the "correct" way of doing things. For example, why does Windows use drive letters and the backslash as a path separator when that was NOT the convention?

Nice summary at that link, Peter. 

I'm just getting to 50, and so my computer use started in the early/mid 1980s. The predecessor to dos having no directory system was alarming at first, until going back and thinking through the mindset of two 5 1/4 floppy drives and no harddrives. 

We didn't have a PC with harddrives in the house until maybe 1991. Plenty of PCs with harddrives around us, but my parents bought a "leading edge" PC very late 80s, maybe, with two 3.5 inch drives. I don't think they were high density capable either, but details are foggy. I remember drilling holes in the top corner of some disks per the orders of an uncle, but not much more. 

Tandy TRS-80 was our first computer, maybe 1982, but we had the one that was cartridge based and with no computer users in house, going to the boot screen to script in basic wasn't something I did beyond trying a few things written in the manual to change screen colors. it had games available, and for reasons I don't know, my parents got it instead of an atari.

Added later 7 h 39 min 54 s:

PC arrived - about half an hour ago, started on installing mint. Win 11 on my new machine will not allow the Iso flash utility to run. No explanation why, no level of permissions, just no. Went back to the old PC with crappy peripherals and courtesy of only 2 usb slots working and no BT keyboard, navigated my way to get the iso for mint using the on screen keyboard! and the old PC at least made one last contribution. Currently waiting for "new" (probably 2020) PC to install mint. 

I can't believe what you can get now for a PC for $275. looks hardly used, actually has components it says it does, and ran 30% faster on CPUmark than the mean score. Almost as fast as the much newer 12th gen i7. the "waste commission" PC has no keyboard wear, no marks on the screen, no handling wear and just a couple of small marks at the top front edge. maybe it spent time in a docking station, but good enough for me either way. 

Having not used the old PC for a while, I now realize how slow it's gotten with a combination of bloat age, and the peripherals are a real pain in the ass given it's got no thunderbolt style ports, and two of the four USBs are dead. The case is also broken. 
I never notice stuff like that if it happens incrementally. and the last update or two of win 10 have created loads of popups from microsoft asking if I want this or that or want to explore features. it's getting the full beans right now - wipe out the prior disk and mint only. That's the last time windows will F with my ability to burn an ISO on a USB. 

peter, I know you have other preferences, but for now i'm going to give mint cinnamon a shot. if it works with my scanner and some other things I have to use to get files to my work PC, then Big Thin may also get linux. sooner than I expected, which will make the waste commission PC a little bit of a waste, but I know a 12 year old who would love to have a full PC...

(just finished....I navigated through a few things in it. clean, plain, efficient, no lifestyle popups or attempts to sell me anything). Thanks, peter. I should've done this when windows forced transition from win 7.

@DavidW,

You may find this handy. From terminal command line:

sudo apt install hardinfo
hardinfo

From menu:  Administration > System Profiler and Benchmark

hardinfo_report_908

I have about a dozen SATA SSDs I've installed various Linux distros on. Then, on an older HP desktop with the lid off, I swap them comparing each.

Linux Mint certainly checks all the boxes for ease of install and having everything work from the get-go. I'm using it now and think it's a solid choice for those considering using their existing computer instead of trashing it and buying a new one.

https://www.linuxmint.com/
https://www.woodcentral.com/-/peter/how-to-install-linux-mint/

I have found a couple of things it doesn't work with for me, though there may be fixes for me. One is a canon scanner and the other is a hand held microscope that states it's only for win and mac. I doubt there's much about it that isn't universal and that's just the scopes software, but it is not my glitzy metallurgical microscope. That is apparently a legitimately used scope in the third world for metallurgy, which makes it cheap enough for people like me. 

But the reality is I want to replace the scanner because it feeds poorly, and I just needed a kick in the pants to go to brother (who supports linux apparently across the board), and the $40 handheld scope actually has its own screen - and is really intended to be used standalone with the little screen and SD cards. Big Thin can stay in windows at this point and get little use as the CPU mark score for the new Waste Commission PC only about 20% below it and "waste commission's" case is clearly much higher quality. I'm sure i was a more expensive PC new. 

Since my dad does nothing but surf the internet on his laptop, I'd be tempted to put mint on his, but he has deep pockets and a $50 for "anything I can get done in an hour" independent computer guy down the road. I can't see how anything in mint would even be noticeably different for him, though, as long as there's a browser button on the task bar. And he'd get far less unwanted popup stuff from microsoft.

@DavidW,

Brother is an excellent choice — they’ve got solid Linux support with official drivers that usually work right away in Simple Scan. For the handheld microscope, try plugging it in and running Cheese or Guvcview — many of those “Windows-only” models are actually standard UVC cameras, so they often work out of the box.

sudo apt install cheese
sudo apt install guvcview

Sounds like your new setup is shaping up nicely. Replacing hardware that plays better with Linux is definitely the right way to go.

cheese didn't work, but the offending camera in this case is more than a regular cam. The regular cigar shaped cams that have no other function are pretty much webcams as far as I can tell. Turn them on, the system picks them up. 

the one in this case has its own 5" screen and the USB connection comes out of the screen instead of the scope, and however the unit and software in the screen functions to pass off from the device to blue screen and the PC shows the image, cheese didn't get it. 

i'll try gucview, but it's no big deal if that ends up being the only thing that doesn't work. It can be used with SD and screen - the big screen is just nicer because of the ability to see quality of the image better, and have the snaps saved directly into the PC to be drag and dropped to my page's file library. This level of camera has been a thorn in my side from the start, though - they are always low quality with a low quality picture. 

https://ofhandmaking.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/hf.jpg

sample picture that the cheap scope takes - I think a lot of the problem is the image is low optical resolution and then rendered, so there is no clarity. Can't tell much difference between one that's $15 and one that's $100. 

I use these for limited stuff vs. the stationary scope, which for only a couple of hundred bucks more, will take pictures like this (at least four or five times as close optically - a picture of a stray grinding mark not removed in a new iron, and then the little dots are carbides in steel). 

https://ofhandmaking.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/subcritical-anneal-50100-nick.jpg

Added later 01 min 03 s:

question, peter - when typing the super do command and then the rest of the line above, will linux just pull the app from a location that's already preset? Or put differently, is it really that easy to just dump that in the command line to install a program?

OK...no need to answer that question...that really was all it took to get gucview on. Love it. Doesn't pick up the cheap scope with the screen, but that's OK. 

I have some other ideas re: how to eliminate that scope from use and do what I do with it on the bigger (better) scope. The cheap ones are handy for something that won't lay flat on the scope bed, but that's about where their capabilities end.

For those of us who are too forgetful for command line stuff (or use it too infrequently), a lot of linux distros include a graphical package manager.  It's basically a window interface front end for a system like APT.

John in NM wrote:

For those of us who are too forgetful for command line stuff (or use it too infrequently), a lot of linux distros include a graphical package manager.  It's basically a window interface front end for a system like APT.

Mint is super smooth with the visual things. If someone like Brother has a debian driver or install, it can just be right clicked on and run well. 

what I have less ease with so far is when a driver is installed, I know there is a command to check for the driver, but for my scanner, for example, I don't see an obvious place that the app was installed. There's a very generic "scanner" app, but I'm not sure if that was already there. It literally opens and has zero menus - just a "scan" button and that's it, but it works. 

I'll get the hang of that. 

I feel like i've been catapulted back a huge amount to win 2000 pro or xp pro, but with a system that is a little bit more agreeable or slick as far as the installs and the menus. I'm surprised how friendly the app menu based front ends are, though. Everything is there and clean, but it is not intrusive. Windows has been an exercise (like all webpages, too) in gradually getting more intrusive with people and anything can be done a little at a time, I guess. 

I'm not going to set up a webpage to proselytize linux, but any time someone says they're tired of windows, I'm going to point them to mint and offer to help them understand the short learning curve. i expected far more residual problems to solve a little at a time, and at this point, there are none but the canon scanner and a cheap microscope - both already irritate me for other reasons.

Interesting - canon's scanner R10 isn't on that list, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had basic functionality on some generic scanner softwares. 

The scanner itself is a portable, so it has software embedded in it and when you use it, a folder pops up with win and mac software. It does pop up on mint, but of course, mint says it doesn't recognize the files.

(bit of a shock -the R10 is marked made in Japan)

Peter Martin wrote:

Added a video to the first post describing the security  and privacy issues with Windows 11.

I'm becoming a big fan of Rob Braxman, and in a hurry!

I figured that the whole TPMS issue was just to get much more definitive data about users, but I thought (and probably is for now) for sale of the data and peoples' behaviors, but the video makes it clear there's quite a bit more there -they're going full on apple. And that's not a good thing.

@DavidW,

I'm curious about the refurb laptops to which you referred.  Is that something that is just local to you, or is it an auction site?  Do you have a link?  I may want to setup a Linux laptop.  My son set up a camera system with a server at my house, and I think I need to have a convenient way to access it to tweak it from time to time.  A cheap Linux laptop might fit that bill.

Jason

@Jason Roehl in Lafayette, IN,

There are a bunch of sellers on eBay who offer used ThinkPads with Linux pre-installed (Mint, Ubuntu, etc.). ThinkPads have a bit of a cult following, mostly because they were originally built for business use — which means tougher build quality, easier repairs, and better upgrade options than most of the consumer laptops you see in stores. They’re also known for being one of the most Linux-friendly laptop brands out there.

https://www.ebay.com/str/playtimepros

The link above is just an example of a seller — I haven’t bought from them myself.

I’ve gone through a lot of laptops over the years, and my daily drivers are all ThinkPads, most of them 15+ years old. You really don’t need cutting-edge hardware for the stuff most people do day to day. Web browsing, email, watching videos — all of that runs perfectly fine on older machines. It’s usually Windows that eats up most of the resources, not the apps people are actually using.

But ThinkPads aren't the ONLY laptops suitable for Linux, just a brand I'm familiar with and that is widely supported in the Linux world. A number of years ago I bought about a dozen of them from eBay with the intention of refurbishing them and offering them as better-built alternatives to new laptops which were continuing to degrade in terms of build quality and reliablity. But, as so many things in my life, I never to around to it, as refurbishing them would involve replacing the thermal paste on the processors, installing new CMOS batteries, and anything else that needed updating in addition to replacing the HDD with an SSD and Windows with Linux.

Things in real life always seem more time-consuming than they do in my dreams.

Update on linux. I like mint so much that I wanted to see if my son's 3d printer would run on linux. The one he has only has support for ubuntu 24.04, so I got a couple of inexpensive  (but new for the cost) PCs to replace the mrs' compact PC (not win 11 supported - but she may go to linux, too. She won't really notice, but I will probably switch her to linux), and by accident, I bought two PCs of different types due to a glitch in the ebay app. 

"you didn't win" on the first attempt at bidding at the end of an auction for a PC, went and bought a cheaper dell 5430, and later got a notice "autopay will complete the transaction" for the first auction, so we have two. 

There is nothing at this point I like better about windows than mint. and Ubuntu is easy to navigate. 

Having mint already on my first shot at linux made burning an ISO to install ubuntu literally a right click option. Personally involved time needed to wipe out the SSD on the dell mentioned above and get ubuntu installed and running, about 10 minutes. Total time less than an hour, but most of that time was the computer behind me downloading the iso, and then running in the background to install ubuntu. 

Ported my gmail to thunderbird in mint and thus have no browser or youtube login for anything where google is involved. Just the app pulling in email. it's so nice. no endless prompting about this or that new feature to redirect my attention, no pop ups to ask me if I will let windows port more media stories through notifications - nothing. It's like the best of 2002 and 2025 to have linux. 

Cost to shop Grade A or better PCs - 
HP elitebook 32g, 512ssd, 1265u intel processor, no marks - $343 (not a huge fan of HP, but this is just an updated version of the petrified-age PC the mrs. is using). 
dell 5430, 16g, 256ssd, 1265u, intel processor, almost no marks, but certainly less damage than any PC I've used for more than a couple of months - $225

(and on the sly, i bought myself another very cheap dell 7540 with no OS and no adapter. I will have one Ubuntu and one mint PC for now, and the windows PC is going away one way or another - the big fat HP "media PC")

The only reason I ever kept windows so long was to use office, but at this point, office no longer comes as a not that expensive licensed software on PCs and I have no interest in paying $100 a year for it. And I cannot just go out and get an older version OEM license as far as I can see. used to be able to get a used PC and find an unused OEM office pro on ebay for about $250 and set up a PC indefinitely.

Always a good idea to have a couple linux machines around.  If you have one fail and need to pull out the drive to copy files over, neither windows or mac machines will read linux formats any more.  Linux will generally read any drive.

They use macs at work, almost exclusively.  I have one of my own machines there that I use as my primary computer, and keep the mac for zoom meetings and admin stuff that requires using their vpn.  I could probably get that working on linux, but it's easier to just let IT do their job and use the mac for it.

I've been having to use the mac more this week as the linux box developed a booting problem (that the vendor says they think is related to their firmware, so they are working on a fix).  I find it very frustrating compared to linux.

The last time I had any significant time on a one button mouse was probably 1996 or so. Mac at the time was in trouble as the hardware was supposedly OK, but the macs did nothing but freeze in the labs at penn state. There was always a line to the entrance for the PCs and I thought mac would go broke soon. They were probably close to it. 

But they're not for me for a myriad of reasons. 

Son is upstairs with the ubuntu PC, has taken it on as his own (which is fine, I have another one coming and I hate keyboards without the number keypad off to the right). He's used linux zero times in his life, spends most of his time on a tablet, and within two hours, has configured ubuntu to look the way he wants it to. Has tracked down his slicer software, added a couple of other peripheral things he likes and has endured no popups or data snarfing or endless redirecting news popups to MSN or begging over onedrive. 

he's 12. 

I think we will probably be switching the wife's PC to either mint or ubuntu, too. She'll never know the difference. 

We have a managed desktop at work on our work PCs, though, as do most, so my ability to do anything but take the standard laptop and use it however it is set up...well, anything else has a chance of zero percent attached to it.