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Supporting things with a live center

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Supporting things with a live center

#1

Supporting things with a live center 

John K Jordan

Someone on another forum asked about making something to fit the tapered socket in a Oneway live center after the pin was removed. I often make #2 Morse tapers from wood and decided to make a couple from Lignum Vitae to fit the Oneway.

I understand the pin in these live centers and clones are #0 Morse taper but I didn't measure to verify. I wrote some notes and took some photos. I decided to add some other ways to hold things with live centers.

I knocked the points out of a Oneway live center and a couple of clones. The points and tapers are identical. BTW, in their wisdom, the Oneway people built their live center so a common 1/4" knockout bar will not fit. Perhaps there is a metric reason for this. The clones don't have this "problem."

I measured both ends of the tapered point and set two calipers. I used a parting tool to size a piece of Lignum Vitae the with the proper spacing. BTW, Lignum Vitae is nice for things like this since it is hard, extremely strong, cuts cleanly, and is self-lubricating.


I then turned away the wood between the grooves, peeling with a skew chisel until the taper was approximate, extending the high end a little for some extra space. With the lathe running at low speed, I held the live center with a rod through the locking holes to keep it from spinning, and pressed the pin socket onto the taper. This burnishes any high spots, marking them so I could trim them away. Trimming needs only extremely light cuts - too much and you start over.

When close, I relieved the center a bit with a parting tool. I pressed the live center again and looked at the burnished marks on the wood. I trimmed again where needed and repeated until I saw two well burnished rings, one high and one low. With the lathe off, I pressed the center onto the taper and tried to wiggle it back and forth to make sure the fit was good.


I turned a couple of these from Lignum Vitae. One I made as a small diameter extension with a kind-of-flat end that could hold something just by pressure, or be pointed or cupped to fit a specific task. I left the second one a larger diameter so it could be shaped as needed. I use a live center as a drive center to shape pieces like this. The second center in this photo (the clone) shows the larger piece in place along with a piece of thick wire through the locking holes to keep it from spinning. Spin that in the headstock to custom turn as needed. The first center is shown along with the smaller diameter extension.


I think I mentioned elsewhere that my favorite live center for the flexibility is the Nova. It has a #2 Morse taper which makes it easy to hold a variety of points and attachments. Those in the back of this photo are some that come with the center. Those in the front are various pieces I've shaped for specific uses, such as holding a long spindle with a small hole drilled on one end.


The long piece mounted in the center is what I use to hold bowl and platter blanks by friction between the live center and a faceplate or the open jaws of a chuck. I use this method to cut a dovetailed recess on one side of the blank. (I flatten both sides of these blanks first so they are perfectly parallel.) The long pressure extension give me lots of working room to cut the recess and shape dovetail.

Another way to make custom pieces to fit on a Oneway live center (or clone) is to drill a hole and thread with a 3/4"x10 tap. This pictures shows a couple of those and the tap I use. Also is another pressure attachment as per Mark StLeger - simply drill a 3/4" hole in a golf ball with a Forstner bit and use it to hold something with pressure. A short block of wood would work too.


One more thing: Nova also sells a threaded adapter with a short #2MT that fits nicely into their live center. This one is threaded to 1-1/4"x8, the same as the spindle thread on my larger lathes. It can hold a chuck, faceplate, or anything else that will thread onto the lathe spindle. I wouldn't want to turn very much on a heavy piece held in a chuck in the tailstock, but it is great for other uses. For example, if the piece still in the chuck needs to be precisely centered on a vacuum chuck or jam chuck this makes it easy. If you already have the center, this adapter can be used instead of the more traditional tailstock adapter with the longer #2MT shown behind the center.


Any other useful techniques?

JKJ

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#2

Re: Supporting things with a live center

Cyril Griesbach

John,

This is a well described process for making adapters for a variety of applications. Very nicely done.

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#3

This is some good info John, but......

JamieDonaldson

....but Mark St. Leger "borrowed" the golf ball trick from me!

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#4

golf ball support

John K Jordan

>>>This is some good info John, but Mark St. Leger "borrowed" the golf ball trick from me!

Noted. Next time I get up that way I'll stop and visit and get a Jamie Donaldson autograph on mine. :)

If you were the innovator you might not get much in royalties but satisfaction to know your legacy is wide and spreading!

When web checking this earlier I found several references: some with Mark's name (Carolina Mtn Woodturners and Apple Valley Woodturners in '16), Bill Smith's demo at West TN Woodturners in '18, your demo at Capitol Area Woodturners in '12, and several references from one Emmett Manley in a tip to AAW, at Tidewater Turniners in '15, and in a Mid South Woodturners Guild newsletter in '10.

JKJ

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#5

Re: Supporting things with a live center

Philip Duffy

A few years back someone showed me/others how to make a #2 Morse taper with a ball bearing from a router bit at the end. I have used that jig many times to hold a fine finial steady as a rock while working on the remaining cuts. Getting the taper just right is a bit of a challenge but worth the effort. Also, you do have to be careful not to overstress the interface with the bearing or a mark in the wood will happen. P.

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#6

#2MT

John K Jordan

>>>A few years back someone showed me/others how to make a #2 Morse taper with a ball bearing from a router bit at the end.

Phillip, do you have pictures, diagram, or a link to a description for this? I'm not yet picturing it.

I use short #2MTs mostly on thin spindles, to hold one end tight without using a chuck and turn without a steady rest.


BTW, a 1/4" drawbar helps hold it tight if unsupported by the tailstock when very long.


JKJ

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#7

The first time I "caught" Mark using .....

JamieDonaldson

...a golf ball was during a demo he was giving at the OVWG club a few years ago, and before I spoke up he said he had seen it on a video somewhere. It was the demonstrator video from the AAW Symposium in Kansas City in 2005 when I was a demonstrator and introduced the magic ball trick! Mark then made a nice hollowed golf ball for me and threaded a Rosewood T for a cap that is now in my small turnings collection. :D We're all good, and I've introduced it many times in my demos over the years!

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#8

Re: Supporting things with a live center

Don Evans

Here's a tip for you. Remember the rubber feet that fit over kitchen chair legs so they would not rip up the linoleum.

One size of those fits over the 3/4" x 10 threads on the end of the One Way live center. Especially nice when you have one of the sharp points install the center and the rest is back away from the work.

Mine has saved my elbow many times!

Also you can purchase the MT with threads to match your chuck I don't remember where I purchased mine. Really handy for mounting chucked work onto the vacuum chuck.

Don

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#9

Re: Supporting things with a live center

John K Jordan

>>>Also you can purchase the MT with threads to match your chuck I don't remember where I purchased mine. Really handy for mounting chucked work onto the vacuum chuck.

I got the one in the photo from Best Wood Tools. http://www.bestwoodtools.com/

I suspect others sell them too.

JKJ

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#10

Mike Stafford

Re: The first time I "caught" Mark using .....

Mike Stafford

I learned the golf ball trick from you Jamie and I use it when needed.

I had an opportunity to both drive and support a piece with two golf balls when I was turning some kendamas a while back. I drilled a golf ball to fit over my drive center and with another golf ball over the live center I was able to turn the sarados of the kendamas I was making.

The sarado has a dished out cup on each end. The cups are not supposed to be the same size and I didn't want to mar the surface of the cups as I turned the large cove and shaped the correct diameter and taper on the ends. Turned out the golf ball drive and center worked great.


Re: Supporting things with a live center

#11

Rubber-wound golf balls

John K Jordan

Back in the '50s I found a golf ball and cut it open (for educational purposes.) I found about a zillion feet of very tightly wound very thin elastic bands. It nearly exploded when cut into. Good fun.

I'm an avid golfer, of course (I just don't like that hole with the windmill) so I should know about these things, but when Mark said to drill a hole into a golf ball I half-expected some excitement and made sure I had my safety glasses on. But it appears that most golf balls are not the exploding rubber band type now.

These days, info overload is a google click away so I learned a lot. First thing I learned is there are people out there with questionable wisdom. [gasp!] I watched a video of a young father, Lincoln, teaching his very young son Dan how to cut open golf balls with a hatchet without wearing unfashionable safety glasses. They even include a-slow mo clip of pieces flying. Lincoln has a facebook series called "What's inside", teaching safety techniques to a half-million followers. The youtube video has had almost 10 million views:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D-mo8qBeGA

Note the label at 7:52 accompanied by laughter.



Perhaps Lincoln won't get around to teaching young Dan to use a spindle roughing gouge to see what's inside a big bowl blank. Yikes!!

Did you ever get a surprise when drilling a golf ball?

JKJ

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#12

Scared the Daylights Out of Us

Bill Howatt

When I was a kid some friends and I were cutting up a golf ball to see what was inside. It flew into a pile of scrap lumber in the basement and we went looking for it. We moved a board and saw in the darkness the world's biggest spider crawling on the floor. Turned out to be part of the ball and the rubber bands were unwinding causing it to move.

Bill

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#13

The days of rubber-wound golf balls...

JamieDonaldson

...are gone, replaced by all modern balls that are solid cores in a variety of compression materials and colors. There are some ball carvers who have fashioned a rainbow of colorful carved balls as their form of artistry! ;)

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#14

I hope you used 2 balls of the same ..............

JamieDonaldson

....brand and vintage so that they would run true when used as a precision pair!! :D

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#15

Re: Supporting things with a live center

Dennis J. Gooding

John, here is another way to exploit the threaded nose of the Oneway live center. I drilled and tapped short sections of 1-inch aluminum rod and then bored the opposite ends to common tenon diameters used for spindles. By using these “chucks” instead of a pointed center at the outboard end when turning spindles, I gain a considerable increase in rigidity, hence resistance to whip and chatter. Theoretically, using this “chuck” on the outboard end and a chuck on the drive end yields the same rigidity as a 20% shorter spindle mounted between a chuck and a pointed center. Comparing it to mounting between centers, it permits about a 40% increase of spindle length for the same rigidity. The aluminum “chucks” are very light weight compared to the rotating parts of the live center and their inertias don’t pose a threat during starting and stopping. For best effectiveness, the tenon should fit snug and be somewhat longer than its diameter.

I would show a picture, but I can't find a way to include a picture here except from an internet address. What happened to the browse feature?

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#16

Re: The first time I "caught" Mark using .....

Mike Brazeau

I made a couple of Kendamas a few years ago and found they were a real challenge in holding techniques. I do not remember what I ended up doing but this looks real good Mike.

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#17

Mike Stafford

Re: Rubber-wound golf balls

Mike Stafford

I remember those rubber wound balls. Yep, I cut into some of my father's when I was a kid and miles of rubber strands popped out of the darn things.

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#18

Re: Supporting things with a live center

Don Evans

The Browse is still there. Just above where you put you text message.

Look for "Upload embedded file:"

Don

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#19

Live center adapter to hold tenons

John K Jordan

>>>I drilled and tapped short sections of 1-inch aluminum rod and then bored the opposite ends to common tenon diameters used for spindles. By using these “chucks” instead of a pointed center at the outboard end when turning spindles, I gain a considerable increase in rigidity,...

That's a nice idea. I have aluminum rod, I might try that. The only thing I don't know is what diameter socket I'd make. I turn a lot of spindles but not furniture parts, typically less then 1" in diameter and maybe 13-14" long.

You are right about the increased rigidity when holding one end firmly, the reason I use a #2mt on the drive end. (I don't use a chuck for the driven end for several reasons.) I don't have data to back it up but to me it "feels" like this makes the first 1/3 of the wood completely rigid. I put the tailstock end in a Steb center but you've given me an idea - just turn a second short #2mt on the tailstock end and hold it directly with the socket in the Nova live center. Or turn a #0mt and hold it in the Oneway after removing the point.

Have you ever tried #2mt collets? I've been using a 1/2" collet on a half-inch tenon to hold finials. The collets do need a drawbar in this case (3/8") since one end of the wood is free. I wonder if I can cut one down and hold it in the Nova live center #2mt socket to hold the tailstock end of a thin spindle. A 1/2" tenon is easier to make than a morse taper.


BTW, thin spindles are one of my favorite things to turn. The one in the "#2MT" message above is almost 30" long, tapers from 1/2" to 1/16", turned without a steady rest, held tightly in the headstock with a short MT. I needed the 1/4" drawbar to finish it since tailstock couldn't support it after it got thin at the end.

JKJ

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#20

Re: Rubber-wound golf balls

Jim Seyfried

I did the same in the basement of my parents house, but cut the small ball in the center. It did exploded and sent a powder all over the place. It scared me enough that I didn't try it again and I hurried and cleaned up the mess before my parents found out. Must not of cleaned all of it up or told one of my brothers, because I remember being lectured about it. 8)

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#21

Re: #2MT

Philip Duffy

John, What I did was turn a piece of hard wood to a proper taper for #2Mt. At the blunt end I drilled a 1/2in hole with a forstner bit the size of the 3/8 router bearing and then inserted the bearing in with a bit of epoxy/CA on the outside, being very careful not to lock the bearing and to make sure it is squared up. After all was dry I put it to work! I would send photos but I am indisposed at the moment. When I am able will send photo. I keep that little tool in a special box to be sure not to lose it! P.

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#22

My Oneway Live Centers accept 5/16" knock out

Mike Brazeau

I don't want to divert attention from this excellent thread, the benefits of which I used today when making a birdhouse ornament roof, but my Oneway Live Centers have no problem with a 1/4" rod and 5/16" drill rod fits just fine. My #3MT version is almost 15 years old and #2MT about 3 years old. Once you have removed the point, it usually come out a bit easier. I usually force it on my concrete floor with the tool supplied. Contrary to the comment about Oneway's wisdom, I think it is pretty amazing what Tim Clay and his team at Oneway accomplished in their early days of the 90's as newcomers to the world of woodturning manufacturing.

In addition to the techniques outlined for making adapters another which I have used is to embed a 3/4" 10 TPI nut in a piece of wood. It can be mounted on the live center and if #2MT placed in headstock a small nail or piece of wire inserted to engage the drive, covered with duct tape for safety to true up or make whatever shape is desired.

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#23

Leo Van Der Loo

Re: Supporting things with a live center

Leo Van Der Loo

Funny your (real ?) Oneway live center does not let a ¼” bar through.

Mine does lets me use the Delta knockout bar, and it is at least 8mm maybe even 5/16” as that is only ¼ mm thicker.

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#24

Oneway live center

John K Jordan

>>>... my Oneway Live Centers have no problem with a 1/4" rod and 5/16" drill rod fits just fine. My #3MT version is almost 15 years old and #2MT about 3 years old. ...

Thanks Mike. Perhaps mine (#3MT) is older than that. I think I got it with a used lathe. It came with the cones and everything. (And I did check to see if there was simply an obstruction - it appears to be made that way.)

I just now ordered a new one so I can see exactly how they are different. I can always use another live center. I'll report back.

This is the one that will not let me use the knockout bar I use for everything else. Looks like a Oneway to me.


I like your nut idea. I do use a piece of wire to let me use the live center as a drive center (with the tape!) If I did that a lot I might consider machining a 1-1/4"-8 to 3/4"-10 adapter.

Another thing I didn't mention was the Rubber Chucky stuff - lots of options with threaded and MT adapters and a variety of soft attachments which can be shaped to fit. I can recommend the hardware (with the assumption that he has fixed his MT machining problem.) Rudy Lopez uses it.

JKJ

Re: Supporting things with a live center

#25

Re: Oneway live center

Mike Brazeau

I had never considered trying anything but the tool they supply until I saw your post. Next time I pick up some drill rod, I think I will make myself one. My aging brain usually forgets that without the point in, the live center actually is improved in many instances. I made a series of inserts from cold rolled steel using a hand held piece of 3/16 square tool steel as well. Cindy Drozda used to get them from Bruce Campbell in Vancouver and resell.


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