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Knowledge You Can Build On — Est. 1998

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Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

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Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#1

Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

john lucas

the making your own Ferrules post below got me thinking that we haven't talked about turning metals on a wood lathe in a while. YOu pretty much have to stay with the non Ferrous metals such as Aluminum, Brass, and Copper.

First of all you need High Speed Steel tools or Particle metal tools. Older carbon steel tools simply won't hold an edge long enough. You can scrape or cut with bevel rubbing cuts. I think scraping works better with a sharp tool and no burr. I prefer the bevel rubbing cuts but you have to slow down your feed rate a great deal and let the tool do the work. If you force the cut you get lots of what looks like tearout. a bevel rubbing cut will produce beautiful curls and a great finish. And yes if you come off the bevel you get a kick back just like in wood.

I use a lot of metals parts and pieces for most of my metal turning but you can simply go out and buy the raw material. I had to turn some 8" by 1" aluminum discs for a glass artist once. That's when I learned how much longer the Thompson particle metal tools will hold an edge over HSS. I could barely make one pass across the 1" piece before having to sharpen because the HSS tool would simply stop cutting. I could make 3 or 4 or 5 passes with the Thompson tool before it became that dull. It's hard to tell the difference in wood simply because they dull so much slower.

for Ferrules I like to use Brass and copper plumbing fittings as my starting point. The only problem I've had is some of the fittings are hard and difficult to turn. I think they have become work hardened in the process of making them. If you find them really hard to turn just heat them to red hot and quench them in water. This will anneal them and make them soft enough to turn. Yes I know that's backwards from annealing steel but it works.

Copper pipe makes great Ferrules. I cut off a 1" section. Then I make a wooden mandrel to push it on so I can true up at least one end. I'll usually make several in one setting so the mandrel isn't a waste. Then you can put this good end on your tool handle first and true up the other end with the handle on the lathe. Most copper pipe isn't perfectly round so you end up taking a few passes across the metal to clean it up and make it round and ready for sanding and polishing.

My favorite Ferrule material is Brass couplers. I like the thread to solder pipe fittings because they already have a taper and look really cool when done. I turn the wood down to a hair larger than the threads. Thread it on to the wood. Pull it back off, put on some epoxy and thread it back on and your ready to turn it.

I find that sometimes you still get little tool marks or tearout on the metal when using a bevel rubbing cut. Go back over it with very light scraping or even shear scraping cuts and you can clean it up.

You will have to sand to a much finer grit to get a metal looking polish if that's what you want. I typically sand to 600 grit and go to 4/0 steel wool but you could simply sand to finer grits.

You'll need to put some sort of finish on it to keep it from tarnishing.

Don't rule out string for Ferrules. You can't turn it of course. Lash in on and then cover it with thin CA. I did this one time because i needed a homemade tool in a hurry and it lasted for about 5 years before it came off.

Below are some photos.


Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#2

A case of shop made is better 

Geoff Whaling

...when you see some of the crap wood turning tool ferrules being sold on handled tools and as individual items.


These are brand new tools purchased a couple of years back, ferrules were cracked as supplied - never used.

Some handy tips from Doc Green ...

http://www.docgreenwoodturner.com/ferrule.html

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#3

one safety thing

John K Jordan

I've turned a bunch of brass and aluminum spindles, straight and multiaxis. (Brass makes wonderful feet and finials - I've been asked where I bought those!)

I only had a problem once but it is worth describing. Brass, especially, can make some extremely fine curly hair-like shavings. A few weeks after turning a bunch I reached down to pull a plug out of an electrical outlet behind and to the left of the lathe. POW!!! Big pop. Bright flash. Smoke. One startled turner.

A fine "wire" had been laying on the top of the plugs all that time and disturbing one caused it to fall behind the plug and short across the 110v terminals. Yikes. I'm careful of metal debris when working on the metal lathe and milling machine but I didn't think about the wood lathe. It made a nice show and tell at the woodturning club.

I learned to tape a paper shroud over the outlet when turning metal.

JKJ

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#4

Steven Antonucci

I know these

steven antonucci

I replaced about 50 like this at the shop at the local craft school. I was teaching a workshop, and I got a catch...which literally made everyone stop what they were doing . (They were as surprised as I was...) A minute later, I got another catch (so of course, I caught all manner of crap for it...)

When we looked, the ferrule was split, which made the tool loose in the handle and it rolled the wing into the cut. When we started investigating the other 8 stations, in total, there were roughly 50 split.

We worked with the manufacturer, who admitted they had an issue with Chinese QC, and they sent out two bags of ferrules to replace the broken ones. I spent an hour or two one day removing them and replacing them, and to my knowledge, the replacements are still good.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#5

Thats very interesting

Geoff Whaling

to hear the numbers involved.

The MD of the tool manufacturer of the tools in my photo says "Please remember we produce tens of thousands of wooden handled tools and the percentage of tools that are reported with a split ferrule is extremely small."

I went through my modest collection and found several with cracked ferrules.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#6

Steel wool can do that as well

Geoff Whaling

.. and start fires pretty well too.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#7

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

Rum

Having only recently graduated from file and paper (the 80 grit gouge equivalent) to using cutting tools for small amounts of hand held metal turning so this is all pretty new to me.. but it does open up a lot of interesting options..

I did find this fairly handy as a starter reference (page 2 on):

http://www.opensourcemachinetools.org/archive-manuals/Freehand_Metal_Turning.pdf

It documented some recommended speeds and turning approaches which, while not perfect was a decent place to start.

Most of the documentation on this seems to be both old and of somewhat dubious veracity. In a lot of cases it presupposes a lot of knowledge I lack, has diagrams made by those unfamiliar with the work, and descriptions not necessarily matching actual usage. Nevertheless a lot of it is fairly interesting if approached with an abundance caution.

Historically there was a lot of hand turning done in all manner of metal including hardened steel (which looks about as scary as it sounds)

The hand steel turners appear to be mostly limited to watch and clock makers (and folks who enjoy doing things the hard way) nowadays. It appears that today most of it is done with carefully ground carbide or HSS gravers which seem to be used somewhere between a skew and a scraper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jTKNLjLrNM

http://www.nawcc-index.net/Articles/Smith-gravers.pdf

The venerable Holtzapffel & Holtzapffel discusses heel tools (amongst many other things) which are.. interesting.. I don't strictly trust this explanation of usage:

http://www.archive.org/stream/turningmechanica02holtuoft#page/524/mode/2up

The 1869 Manual of the Lathe has some description of the usage of various hand tools with metal as well.

https://archive.org/stream/manualofhandlath00wats#page/26/mode/2up

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#8

Mike Stafford

Re: Thats very interesting

Mike Stafford

I have had several of that particular manufacturer's tools to have ferrules that split. If you take a look at the thickness of the ferrule it is extremely thin and I also believe it is very brittle.

I have several turning friends who also have split ferrules on this brand of tools. Cutting corners on the cost of a ferrule has cost them at least one customer. I buy Thompson tools and make my own ferrules and save a bundle.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#9

Re: Steel wool can do that as well

John K Jordan

Did you ever set fire to steel wool that has very fine aluminum power in the wad? Thermite. Molten steel. White hot. Could probably weld with it.

JKJ, card-carrying science geek and casual pyromaniac since about 1960

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#10

some non-wood turnings

John K Jordan

Interesting articles, thanks for posting.

I took a picture of some non-wood turnings I did on the wood lathe. All of these are with Thompson spindle and detail gouges and an occasional parting tool. I don't remember sharpening the Thompson gouge much. I always use C360 brass which is far easier to turn/machine than some other alloys.

Finger tops, multi-axis silly golf tee, and a small brass finial.


This is using the brass for feet and finial. The goblet has brass powder inlay.


And I found a photo of the finished tool adapter I showed turning earlier, drilled and tapped for set screws.


JKJ

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#11

Leo Cuellar

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

Leo Cuellar

I don't have a metal lathe, but do occassionally freehand steel. I use a piece of 1/2" steel pipe. The end is drilled & tapped for two set screws to hold the cheap carbide square shank metal cutting bits. As with any time spent at the lathe, follow the cardinal safety rules and with good PPE, you don't really have to worry too much.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#12

Roger in MO

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

Roger in MO

John, I like the brass couplers too but am lazy and don't turn them. I like the hex shape

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#13

Steven Antonucci

I'm a scrounger

steven antonucci

Not sure if I took all of the ones I replaced, but I grabbed more than a handful to reclaim the brass to make mokume gane.


I'll be in the shop tomorrow and I'll see if the repaired ferrules appear to be holding up...

Steve

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#14

Hmm...

Geoff Whaling

when you ask around a bit it seems there are far more ferrule failures than they like to admit. Makes me wonder how many handles have split in use?

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#15

Not that geeky but

Geoff Whaling

I have messed with it at high school as we had an interesting chemistry teacher. I've seen a fair bit of thermite welding of railway lines/ tracks over the years while working as a surveyor. always worth the time to stop & watch.

I have heard of a few instances, and witnessed one in a workshop, of fine metallic swarf bridging the conductors of wall sockets / plugs as you say.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#16

Re: Hmm...

David Walser

Who are "they"? You guys keep mentioning a company who's well known for ferrules that split, but I don't know which of the many firms selling turning tools from China you are referring to in such an oblique manner. I might be the only one in the dark. I doubt it.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#17

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

Barry Irby

I made a Three Point Tool and used a brass fitting for the ferral. I left the hex flats on the ferral and that allows me to rest three of them on the tool rest to grind the tool. If I am not careful I will end up with a six point tool. It works great until you fail to pay attention.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#18

In fairness to them

Geoff Whaling

they are Robert Sorby & Hamlet, although I have seen failures in other brands. The Technical Advisor for Robert Sorby took my comments re the splitting ferrules to the top & the MD did offer to replace the handles or ferrules on any of their affected products.

Wooden handles will experience movement with changing relative humidity hence the moisture content of the wood changes. So ferrules could be very tight or lose at various times but I don't think that ferrules should split. All the split ferrules I have seen have cracked through the punch mark or very near to it, as in Steve Antonuci's photo. Drilling the ferrule and putting a pin through the ferrule into the handle (as P&N do in Australia) is obviously too expensive for Robert Sorby, Hamlet and a few other tool manufacturers.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#19

Use of initials....obvious to the poster...

Brian Roberts

and some others?

MD.....?

Marketing Director?

Manufacturing Director?

Main Dummy? (I guess that would be me)

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#21

Re: Thermite Welding Rail Road Track

John K Jordan

Thanks, I read about that but never saw it done.

When I was a kid I read about making thermite from iron filings and silver filings from a dime. But I never wanted to waste the dime so aluminum it was.

Another bright plaything is magnesium. If you cut a sheet into strips with a long and very fine point at one end you can light it easily. Watch out for burning, molten magnesium dripping onto the floor. Clean up any paper on the floor first. DontAskMHIKT.

My youth was spent mixing chemicals and igniting and burning and melting and exploding a huge variety of things. This was often combined with zapping with high voltage and current This was in the 50s-60s. These days the dept of homeland security would probably spoil the fun (and the education).

JKJ

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#22

Re: Thermite Welding Rail Road Track

John Kaner

John,

1972 I made a lead melting furnace from a terracotta pot, oil burner transformer and used two carbon rods from D cell batteries. That's when pigs of lead were easily had and you cast your own sinkers.

When I was a USAF Firefighter stationed in the Azores, we had a European car catch fire. Started spraying water and the flames were now out-of-control!

Seems Magnesium was used in the engine. Luckily we had the newly available Dry Powder (Class D) fire extinguishers. I still believe it got so hot because the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms split and fueled the fire.

John

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#23

Use of initials....Managing Director

Geoff Whaling

... maybe I should have used head honcho ;-)

Honestly, Robert Sorby took my safety concerns & product improvement suggestions very seriously and replied in a prompt manner. Great responsiveness and customer contact experience.

However, they do not appear to have changed the design of the ferrule, the manner in which they stamp/punch the ferrule retaining "dimple" but hopefully they source their ferrules from a higher quality material.

ps when you examine the cracked ferrules the "brass" material appears to be very grainy which does not seem to be a good material characteristic for ferrule stock material.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#24

Cars burn to almost nothing

Geoff Whaling

Unfortunately we have a crime wave of juveniles stealing cars, joy riding, then setting fire to them. No theft of parts, just thrashing the cars joyriding. It is amazing how little is left from some cars after the fire.

Re: Turning non ferrous metals on the lathe

#25

Ric Taylor

Re: Thermite Welding Rail Road Track

Ric Taylor

I remember back in 1971 when a warehouse in San Antonio that had many magnesium engine blocks stored inside caught fire. That was the most intense fire I've ever seen, and the firefighters couldn't do anything but watch it burn.