unsafe practices....o boy!

Re: o boy

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Keith,

Russ posted and then deleted a picture of the very technique you use.

You missed nothing (as far as I saw, anyway), except perhaps somebody objecting leading to the deletion (which I missed as well)

M

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Ruth

>Keith, that's exactly how I steady all the less than 1/2" dia. spindles I turn. Not only am I using my hand as a steady but at the same time I can feel any imperfections or high spots.

Safety is extremely important. I truly believe the most important safety factor is being totally AWARE. Aware of how your tool is cutting. Aware of how the wood is reacting. Aware of any unusual sounds from the wood, the lathe, the electric, etc. Aware of everything.

That said, no matter the tool nor the technique you learn, practice and become comfortable with, that's the best tool or technique for you.

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Fog Tanner

>I saw the pictures and didn't notice anything unusual. In the Turning Wood Projects video, Hisownself does a complete spindle using his fingers as a steadyrest as nothing else would work. I do it all the time with my skew to eliminate vibration. And there are some small pieces where nothing else will work.

I didn't think the pictures Russ posted were particularly unsafe. Woodturning is an activityl which does have it dangerous side. I would hate to see the body armour that the guvment would introduce. Kevlar gloves, vest, helmet with 1/2" polycarb visor, a respirator that would make the Airstream look like a toy. Not to mention the govenor on the lathe that would not let it exceed a given OSHA rpm. Point is, if you are uncomfortable or have trepidations about doing it, then simply don't. If Russ cares to use his hands to steady a piece, they are still his hands and last time I checked we are not officially property of the state yet. If he should get injured, then it is still his choice like everyone else's. But it appears that the minority has spoken and Russ is forbidden from doing that anymore.

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>Steadying a small dia. spindle with a couple of fingers wrapped under the tool rest and around the spindle is a fairly common practice among experienced turners. I've seen R. Raffan do it a number of times. I really can't see that it's a dangerous practice. I often hold my hand firmly against a thin walled bowl right in back of the tool while cutting inside the piece. The tool cuts much better. Not dangerous.

Wally

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Ron in Drums PA

>I saw the pictures and didn't give it a thought. I'm far from an expert and maybe this is crazy but I lightly held the outside of the rim of a bowl when making the last cut to smooth my cuts out.

Why did it get deleted???

Carole in VA

>I missed it! I wanna see! I am a new turner and certainly need to know what I shouldn't do as well as what I should do.

Re: Why did it get deleted???

Ruth in So. CAl

>I saw the pictures and thought 'how skilled'...I didn't see it as being unsafe. And, even if it was unsafe, isn't that what we are supposed to be doing on this web site, having some fun, learning from each other, sharing methods of work, saying what works and doesn't?

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Hi Keith

I use my fingers for a steady if need by, and I do teach it to students who have demonstrated the ability to handle it the same way. We all start at the beginning, and no, I was not qualified to do this when I started. I needed practice and experience to do it. There are lots of things I do that I would not recommend for someone less experienced. That does not mean that I hold safe working practice in contempt. It only means that I have enough experience to know what I can and cannot do.

I was very much surprised to see that someone - apparently a couple of someones - saw the need to excoriate Russ for posting those pictures. The most important safety tool we own is the one between our ears, but apparently it does not get enough use in some instances.

This is a dangerous hobby by definition. People need to think about what they are doing, what is reasonable to expect from others, and even more importantly, that not all of us are at the same level of skill and experience. I guess all of that could apply to Russ's posting, but I look at it differently. If people are going to start whining about stuff like that, then we are in for a long downhill slide.

What's next? Maybe if I post the pictures of a winged cherry bowl I turned recently, another one that is 17" x 5" and looks like a propeller, someone will write me and tell me it is unsafe, and that I should not do it, I should not post pictures of it, because someone else might make the mistake of doing it too and hurt themselves! I sure hope it doesn't come to that!

Bill

Re: Why did it get deleted???

Andy in Raleigh

>Russ chose to delete it. According to his post about deleting it, he recieved a couple of emails and a phone call about it. I was concerned that it was due to comments that I posted saying that there was some risk for novices like myself but Russ said it was due to other feedback. I felt it should have been left up along with the "be careful if you do this" replies. What he showed looked fairly safe - small spindle, very nicely smoothed and very well controlled tool.

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Bill, you bring up some valid points. Believe it or not.....my Dad was an OSHA inspector, in fact he spent seven years in DC helping to write the laws.

Personally, I don't think guiding the wood with your hand is unsafe, but if someone gets hurt doing it, it's their own fault. Life can be dangerous and full of risks. Especially driving to work!

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

JamieDonaldson

>And Rude Osolnik made thousands of his signature candlesticks mounting the blanks without stopping the lathe from the previous one! I had to explain to a reporter this was not a technique for beginners, and when the piece came out in the paper, all hell broke loose!

Sheesh!!! If we cannot...

BubbaBob

>...see something one or two people judge to be too unsafe for our eyes, I guess we'll never see another 500 pound blank on TD's VB...

BubbaBob

PC Rant...

Molly Winton

>Has Political Correctness invaded turning too?? I too use my fingers gently wrapped around a very thin spindle, as Russ did in his photo. It irks me no end to see a photo like this deleted because some folks feel a need to be ultra PC. A simple warning to beginners about safety should be sufficient. From experience, I know what can happen when a spindle breaks using this technique...it goes snap!, and falls into your hand. No flying projectile, no hurtling spear. The whole point of this is the spindle is THIN and delicate. A thin, delicate spindle will break easily if not supported, but will not act like an 80 lb. bowl blank coming off the lathe. Whew, end of rant.

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Duane C.Leach

>Many very good responses have been made about unsafe practices.But what you all fail to realize is that we are all guests here. Playing on someone elses court with THEIR ball and THEIR rulls. If Russ chooses to deleate something he can... Right or wrong dosn't realy mater.

Happy turning

Duane

Re: PC Rant...

Keith Tompkins

>Thanks, Molly....does this mean I can still turn using a hatchet? O goody!

Seriously, as a turner gains experience, they will find ways to do things the books say cannot be done.

Starting a roughing gouge from the end of the turning, for instance. Starting any gouge from air with no bevel rubbing. Using the skew without the bevel rubbing. These things can be done, but only with practice.

Re: PC Rant... *LINK*

Andy in Raleigh

>I agree that the pictures should have stayed with just a warning. I also agree that the specific spindle being turned in the photos looks pretty safe. The context in which steady rests and "thin" spindles came into discussion recently is below. When you are talking about 1" spindles 30" long, it is a little dicier. Personally, I am more concerned about accidentally getting a finger or thumb between the spindle and tool rest or getting a good thumping from touching a spindle that isn't yet as round as you thought (the latter has happened to me a few times) than I am about danger from breaking or disengaging. Again, I think the pic should have been left up, but it seems that Russ made the decision about his posting.


http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?read=57861

Re: unsafe practices....not using your fingers

John Trant (Baltimore/WashDC)

>Actually, I contend that it is unsafe to not steady a very thin spindle with your fingers. Using your fingers applies the "digital steady rest" exactly where it is needed opposed to a "mechanical steady rest" restraining the spindle only in the middle (for example). Not using your fingers invites the spindle to bend sufficiently to come loose from the tail stock. Now you have an immediate problem of a flying arrow (if using a drive center) or whip (if held by a chuck).

John

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Russ Fairfield

>Over-reaction?? Probably.

But.....

It did get the conversation onto a discussion of safety at the lathe, and that is a good thing.

What Molly said.

BubbaBob

>

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

john Lucas

>Russ

I've had this conversation with several editors. There is a small group of people out there who "live" to find "safety errors". They write in to the magazines every month to point out any "infraction". Personally I'm sick of it but that's life. I don't blame you at all. We try to make everyone happy and sometimes it gets really netpicky. I'll stand by your decisions.

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

RonZ

>That's how I do it and learned it via Raffan and Bonnie Klein videos.

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Arch

>Not many of us practice what we preach all the time. Many demonstrators don't wear masks or ear plugs only because they can't hear the questions or speak into the microphone...yeah, sure! I advise newbies to stay on their side of the tool rest, but I don't always do that. Experienced fingers make safe and efficient travelling steadies. Inexperienced fingers are at risk just by turning thin spindles, but less so if taught how to steady a thin spindle properly.

Russ, as a safety lesson and pc statement, you should post a pic of you standing barefoot draped over an open headstock scraping a thin spindle held in an engineer's chuck with a file in one hand and steadying it with with a long fingered glove in the other. Others can suggest some more bad practices to put in your training pic that are forbidden by the turning police. How many no-no's can you find? Remember those magazine pictures that you were supposed to win a prize for finding the most hidden objects? Nobody ever got a prize and nobody will get one here, but think of all the nice email you will receive.

Meanwhile, I'll risk being a PC pain in the tailstock and urge everyone to...

Turn to Safety, Arch

I have a solution...>>>

RonZ

>...>>> At the top of this page post a disclaimer like they have in all the videos and books. You can add line like 'Woodcentral has a wide range of people posting from beginner to pro. Please keep that in mind when applying techiques posted and you proceed at your own risk'

Now I'm off to use my 1 3/8" Lacer skew on a 12" diameter column of oak and no tool rest. =o)

Re: unsafe practices....o boy!

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I guess I won't post that picture of me turning in my birthday suit after all. Probably just be deleted anyway.