Cheating?...

I'm with you Wally

TD

>a tool is a tool and time is money. Whatever it takes to get the job done quickly is what I want. I can still be creative in my forms, perfectionist in my finish, and an artist in finding wood with the art in it. I agree with you that if a laser shouldn't be used then neither can a captured hollowing rig. Ever watch Nascar? They even have an air wrench that takes off all 5 lugnuts at the same time.

TD

Cheating: My definition.

steve antonucci in NW NJ

>If you produce work mechanically without "seeing" and influencing the final form, you're probably cheating.

Even with a laser, I couldn't do this work, so maybe I'm a bad cheater?

steve

Re: Cheating?...

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>A few more items that weren't around in my early days of turning. HSS tools, CA glue, videos, sharpening jigs...in fact, the catalogs are full of "new" innovations. Hey, you newbies have it so easy....how can you do anything wrong?

Wally

Re: Cheating?...

Ric Taylor

>I started using CA glue back in 1976, because it helps with creativity, not because it was cheating.

I Agree Wally.

Barbara Gill, Remlik VA

>

Re: Cheating?...

Brad Vietje

>No way. It does make hollow forms easier, but then shoes help a lot with walking, too.

I make most hollow forms by hand and without the stabilized boring bar/laser setup, mostly because I like to make smaller openings than I can readily make with my rig. For larger forms or larger openings though, it allows me to concentrate on the form, and takes the beating my arms would otherwise take. I don't think its cheating at all.

Safe Spinning,

Brad Vietje

Thetford, VT

Nope!

Ron in Drums PA

>

Boy, what a trouble maker...>>

RonZ

>...>>> I thought we put that to rest. =o)

I'll restate my point as it was taken several times out of context.

I stated that one would be cheating in the sense he's cheating his/her self by not learning how to do it with out the rig, laser wasn't even mentioned in my original statement either. I think they serve several purposes. First, one my be older or have a certain handicap that makes true hollowing not possible, rigs would be great. Second, a professional turner that knows how to hollow and needs to up production to make a living or perhaps the market won't bear his price per hour for hollow forms and needs to lower the price. Third, a person who turns as a hobby and does not have the time to spend to tackle the learning curve of hollowing but wants to try it. Etc. etc..

In general, I feel that at least if you wish to become a professional turner, you must invest time to learn what we'll call 'basics' for lack of a better term. Turning a bowl between centers, using a jam chuck, using a face plate, etc.

I make boxes. I can hollow with a forstner bit or a gouge and scraper, what should I do? I for one, could not use a bit and charge gouge prices [pun intended]. I'm not a neander man, ludite, or purist. I would however pay [if I could afford it] a premium for an Ellsworth hollow form than some one elses who uses a rig. I would pay more for Keith's scroll style designs than a pre-fab made one, or any one elses hand and lovingly made item over a pre-fab, stream lined produced item [provided it appeared that way].

You can bet your bippy that Stuart Batty knows how to do spirals the 'long way' and has stream lined his production. He's a master and I'd take anything from him but would prefer and earlier version that he sweated over.

I learned in college from my math teacher 'don't do any more work than you have to' While this may apply to many things in life, there are many areas where it doesn't.

Depth gauges, whether calipers, depth gauges or lasers

I agree with you that time is money.

Re: Cheating?... Mea Culpa - again

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>Since I was the first one to use the term "Cheating" in that thread, I feel the need to appologize and explain - again.

I used the term cheating, kidding, in that I said it "Felt like cheating" to use a laser, because it made things easier. I also went on to explain that I too am now using a laser. (I cannot use a long Jamieson style captured rig - not because of some moral obligation, but because I have a short bed.

There does come a point, IMHO, were I think someone will have enough tools/systems, that they need to stop calling themselves Woodturners and should call themselves Wood Artists, and the result of their work is Wood Art. Maybe that day comes when they mount the wood and turn on the machine, and it makes the object that they have designed. I do not know.

I do think that (and I think TD and some others will join me here), it is getting harder to classify some of what is being called Woodturning, as anything but "Wood Art that happens to have a lathe involved as part of the process". And I admit I do not know where (if anywhere) that line is. What about a large King Sized Bed that has turned bed posts? A chest of drawers with turned knobs? Do we judge it by the percent of time spent turning vs other operations? If so, the pictures that Wally posted are probably classified as Carving, Binh Pho's work as carving or air brushing, or my segmented work as a finishing project.

Believe me, I am all for improvements in tools. Some are convienence (electrically powered lathes, chucks, etc), some make things easier through logical development of existing tools (powered lathes, fingernail grind, etc), some allow you to do things you could not do before they were invented (Elsworth's hollowing tools, and captured hollowing tools for really large hollow vessels) and others too numerous to enumerate.

It is a tricky question - I see machines at the IWWF show that you can practically put a tree in one end and have a finished Chesterfield Highboy come out the other end. The question is, is this woodworking? Somewhere we have the same question to ask ourselves about what we do.

Just my Opinion. (obviously I have too much time one my hands at work today).

Not trying to start any arguments,

Mark

Re: Boy, what a trouble maker...>>

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>Ron,

Your comment about your math teacher comment make me think of this comparison: I have no problem with my kids (both pretty good math students) using a calculator to save time, providing then know how to do the problem manually and understand the concepts behind it.

Without that, we produce kids that cannot make change without the cash register telling them what to give me back when I give them $20.20 for a $19.20 purchase.

I get the same from some turners in my club, that go to the AAW symposium and see Lyle Jamieson's captured hollowing system and decide that that is the way to START Hollowing. Sure you/they can do it, but I think you are losing an essential part of the learning process. Just my opinion.

Along those lines: A couple of years ago, we had the final Badger Pond get together at Ray Thompson's place near Indianapolis. Gary Hern brought his Stubby 750, and some of his turning tools. I was dying to try out his Proform tool. We chucked up a blank and turned the outside and then proceded to hollow it out. I got the vessel down to about 1/4" wall thickness, and was pretty proud of that - I had not done much hollowing then. Gary then said - "Let me show you how to get it really thin, and proceeded to set up his Jamieson style rig. He had not been turning 2 minutes when BAM, we now had a bowl.

Not real point to the story, except the humor, and the fact that no system is flawless.

God, I hate it when I sound like some old Ludite or old fart.....back in the old days. Yeah, right, I have only been turning about 5 years.

Mark

Re: Cheating?... Mea Culpa - again

Mike Schwing from Md.

>Here's some personal experience that may not add to the conversation anything other than a little practical experience.

As I stated last week, I love using my laser hollowing rig, for I view hollowing as a chore. The external profile is what I like, I'd leave them solid if they wouldn't crack.

Last week I started on a project that involves up to 40 little hollow forms. I started out with my captured hollowing system and the 1/2" bars. The first one I did with the laser. The second one I didn't, as they're small and I can easily judge the depth/thickness by feel (and last week's discussion was still in my head). However, the entrance holes were too big for the size of workpiece, so I made some smaller hollowing tools out of of some round bar stock, and used them in my Kelton rig. After 4 or 5 of them I decided to use one in a regular old handle - and liked it much better. So last weekend I made my own set of handles and hollowing tools and now production is going much faster - no laser AND no hollowing rig.

I think I'm experienced enough (even though time wise I'm a newbie), to say that I know how to do it the old fashioned way, and that for certain occasions the laser rig can't be beat, but for others it presents no advantage whatsoever. So I'm willing to say the laser isn't always the best, but it is still one of the coolest tools in my shop.

Re: Boy, what a trouble maker...>>

John Lucas

>Mark

Back in the old days we had to walk 5 miles through snow, barefoot, just to get to the shop and turn. We had to use egg whites to glue wood together and turned with old screwdrivers that were sharpened on an old grindstone. Whoa wait a minute. I'm not that much older than you.

I find all the argument about cheating and whether it's woodturning, carving or sculpture to be interesting. When I was in Archery we had the same arguments. Your cheating if you use a sight, or a release instead of fingers. That compound bow was the equivelent of the lazar rigged boring bar.

It gets much more complicated when you talk about art. Compare David Ellsworth to Micheal Hosaluk(sp) for instance. One is very obviously a turner the other is more of a sculpture but they each have a piece of art that makes a statement.

It gets complicated when you try to hold competitions locally where you have people in the club with highly different styles. Then creating categories gets comfusing. I guess we'll talk about this more on Wednesday.

It's like Bob Hope said on time. He lost out in a talent contest to a baton twirler. How do you compare the two talent.

Kelton, Jamieson, etc....

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>Mike, I turn all sizes, but I turn a lot of small, very thin-walled hollow vessels. I can do the job better and faster when I have the tool in my hands and can "feel" and hear what I'm doing. I do have a captive rig, made by Nichols, but I only use it for deep pieces. It gives me comfortable control when I'm deep in the piece. Otherwise, I prefer the "old fashioned way".

Someday I'm going to see if there's any interest in a class on turning as we did in the old days. Make some of your own tools, use jam-fit chucks, etc. Learn the basics without some of the "modern" stuff. I've actually heard guys say that they'll start turning bowls after they get a 4-jaw chuck.

Wally

Re: Boy, what a trouble maker...>>

RonZ

>I am an old fart [alter kaker], my kids are all teenagers, my oldest is 20.

Re: Boy, what a trouble maker...>>

RonZ

>Actually archery is a good analogy. What if you used a laser sited cross-bow, competition still equal? If I shoot a target from 50 yards with my Glock 19 and make a 1" grouping will it be any different if I use a laser sight? When I was with the police, my objective is to stay alive and nuetralize the bad guy. So anything that will aid me in this, I don't consider cheating. When I go practicing on the range for points, that's different.

Now Wally stirs the pot!...

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>I love it! Wally is getting some good ones in on everyone here! This discussion could go on, and it probably will, for quite some time. During the course of my post and the ensuing discussion, I was contacted privately by a couple of different people who offered me some hollowing advice, tools for sale, etc. I have a super duper monster laser setup on the way to try out. Why, if my air hat was black, you might think I was Darth Vader with his light saber! But, just so's you knows, here are a couple from back in the old days:

Sorry for the picture quality - these were taken before I got a decent camera. But you all get the idea.

I was talking to one of my best friends yesterday about this very thing. He is a very accomplished turner, and his hollow forms are spectacular. At first he was kind of squeamish about the whole thing, but after thinking about it, he didn't see much of a problem with the laser rig. I think a lot of it has to do with our work ethic - if it wasn't hard, it wasn't worth it. Well I am looking forward to hollowing with a laser, and who knows - maybe one of these days, the laser will do the cutting!

Bill

Re: Kelton, Jamieson, etc....

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Hi Wally

I wasn't around back in the old days (although my kids seem to think so), but I can tell you that I teach that way. I get students all the time who don't have chucks, sharpening jigs, so on and so forth. We do it the old fashioned way, with glue blocks, jam chucks, sharpen by hand, etc. There is no sense in showing someone how to turn with a chuck if they don't have one and aren't getting one. The same goes for all the other stuff. so, the old days are still alive and well, even if there is going to be a laser rig parked in the corner of the turning tool corral.

Bill

Re: Kelton, Jamieson, etc....

RonZ

>Your course sounds almost like my electronic engineering classes [circa late 70s]. We had to buy a slide rule, shown what it does, and then we put it into our bags and pulled out the calculator. We were also told that back then what ever came of the electronic assembly line was outdated.

Perhaps my skewed view [yes, pun intended] is like police or military training. It's wise to know how to use hand to hand combat along with pistol and rifle training. One may ask why bother when we have smart bombs? I think the answer is obvious.

Perhaps that is one thing that drew me to woodturning ove computers. Bowl gouge 2.0 stays bowl gouge 2.0 and if there is another grind, you just take your tool to the grinder.

Re: Boy, what a trouble maker...>>

Mac

>You want old fart? I have grandchildren who are 20,I've been turning for 40 plus years...there....take that.....Mac

Yeah, I'll vouch for him.

TD

>

My turn to stir.....

Russ Fairfield

>Bill,

Don't be surprized to find that the laser isn't all as easy as it is advertised to be. There is still a lot more to hollowing out a piece of wood than stabbing a tool into it and following the light. It still takes skill, a lot of patience, and a goodly amount of dexterity and finesse to make a wall that is thin, uniform, and smooth.

Hollowing can be brutal on the body, and large ones can throw you across the room. The captured tool takes the stress out of the job. Other than that, and being able to do it faster, not much has changed.

I have a different perspective on "thin" walls. All outside appearances and shape being equal, thin walls and light weight are the difference between "art" and "craft".

A thick wall is "craft". A thin wall is "art". I know that, and so does everybody who looks at it. The difference is $300; and "art" in the shape of a hollow-form sells faster than "craft".

Having said that, yes, there are times when a thin wall is out of place, but not very often.

Beat By a Mile

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>My oldest granddaughter is 34! I started turning in 1936, just about 70 years ago! Just after they invented electricity.

Wally

Yessss...I Agree...

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>

Re: Beat By a Mile

Mac

>You have me beat in time, but bet I got you beat in 'ornery,As TD says"he'll vouch for me"