A55 Smoothing Plane

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Knowledge You Can Build On — Est. 1998

Some musings on human nature.

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Some musings on human nature.

#1

Some musings on human nature.

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>I posted the message on drying roughed out bowls quickly last Saturday morning. Comments have ranged from �you�re a genius� to �it is just an other perpetual motion machine.� That is about what I expected on the extremes. What sticks in my craw are the number of questions demanding to know why a person should believe that the process works. If this was a brain storming session that would be understandable.

If I was trying to sell a product to accomplish a bowl drying process then I would expect a barrage of questions. Since I would expect to profit from the sale of a product I would readily defend my claims and vigorously attempt to separate the unsuspecting public from its money. In this case I don�t have a corner on the paper bag market or a large stake in the ethanol manufacturing industry.

Now, heaven forbid, if I were defending a masters or doctoral theses then heap on the requirement for facts and figures. Demand full color charts annotated for each wood type and the phase of the moon. Don�t forget the satanical averages, means, convergent, divergent or any other perverted graft that academia identifies its self with. If enough scientific language is used or the proper initials appear after a presenters name then the argument has more merit.

Now this isn�t quite fair to the readers. I know they have invested time reading the article and composing their lucid responses. Reviewing the drying thread reveals that enough information was gleaned from the earlier posts to preclude reading the later ones. Perhaps I missed a forum usage rule that says to go directly for the jugular if you know the poster is wrong. The onus is on the poster because you have payed your money to read the message and demands for facts and figures are perfectly in order. After all, the poster has grabbed you by the arm and threatened to take, or not take, your first born if you don�t convert to their way of doing things by the stroke of midnight. Worse yet, you have to read their subsequent post, if you don�t like the thread, incase it digresses into the pins or tails first controversy. Forget about religion and politics because this is where the real truth lies.

On several occasions I have seen a thread that caught my attention and made me wonder about its validity. First I check to see if I have met the person because I will have to be nice. Then make sure the person has made good comments about a project picture you have posted. Can�t antagonize that person. Does the poster still talk about Badger Pond? Now here is some one that needs to be set straight. This poster never makes any comments about my project picture posts. They are probably a_______(pin or tail) person so I can sharpen up the pen. I am a/an ________(lawyer, doctor, retired, old fart, or other) so I can say what ever I want. This person is Yankee fan so open the flood gates with the acid pen.

Dave Smith

Mariner fan in Longview, WA.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#2

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Tim Grenville-Cleave

>Well Said !!!

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#3

2 things to add to the alcohol soak method

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I forgot these totally and figured they'd get lost if I replied to the main thread on the subject.

Well, three things I guess.

Dave - thanks again for the info, and I didn't really see any of the things you're referring to in your "musings", but as the author your take on the matter are different than mine.

Number 2 - if you use glue blocks as I do frequently, make sure your glue can stand up to the alcohol. System Three epoxy dissolves completly in alcohol. DAMHIKT. I don't know what type of glue will stand up to an ethanol soak, but I'm sticking with my 5 minute epoxy and not soaking those bowls.

Number 3 - I did not, and have not, wrapped any of the bowls I have soaked in alcohol. I let them dry right on the racks along with everything else - no cracks.

I too have noticed decreased distorsion of the forms as they dry.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#4

Hear Hear!

Dominic Greco in Richboro PA

>Well said my friend! Well said!

As I stated before, from our correspondences I know you kept accurate track of all the pertinent data and used this to form your hypothesis. People can either respect your assessment of the results, or go out and try to prove differently. It's a free country.

As for me, I'll continue to use this technique since I've found from use on actual items I've posted here on WoodCentral that it works GREAT for me.

See ya around,

Dominic

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#5

Ric Taylor

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Ric Taylor

>Dave,

The thing that jumped out at me as I read your responses throughout the thread was the way you remained a gentleman and maintained your composure.

Many thanks for the information.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#6

The price of innovation . . .

Fred in NC

>The price of innovation sometimes is ridicule.

Dave, I appreciate your your willingness to share with us, and even more so, to do it in a public chat where a person can be bombarded with questions and negative comments.

In my years I have observed that new and useful inventions were rejected at first. In the days when black and white television made its debut, a lot a people were concerned about damage to the eyes from watching the little screen.

Resistance to change - that is part of human nature, at least for a lot of people.

After all, we don't really need all the new tools, gadgets, and processes. Especially, who needs a lathe with an electric motor? We can always carve a bowl with a pocket knife . . .

Thanks again, Dave, and thanks all who helped you.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#7

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Mike Rubes, Apex, NC

>Hi Dave,

I know many others fall into this category as well, but I for one really appreciate the time you invested in checking out this process. I am intrigued with it and will give it a try.

I'm not trying to "hijack" this thread or rehash stuff that may have been covered below, but while I am "here", I do have a question. Namely, how safe is it to have a tub of 3-5 gallons of denatured alcohol in the shop? People talked about "flash points" which sound really dangerous, but I don't know what it means :) I plan to keep the alcohol in a sealed plastic tub. I know alcohol is flamable, but is it safe anyway to have it in an non-heated or cooled garage? I do have a grinder and that does create sparks, but would certainly store the alcohol container at the other end of the shop.

Thanks again for the idea and for the testing. I really like the idea of getting a rough out ready to finish on the order of weeks instead of months (or years!).

Thanks,

Mike

Once got lost in Longview, WA, far from Apex, NC :)

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#8

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Jim Pugh in Elyria, OH

>Dave, just want to let you know that some of us take information like yours seriously, even if we haven't personally tried it. It will be looked into at my house in the near future.

That being said, it seems to be the nature of the human beast to read any/all posts carelessly, run to make some comment and then it is at a tangent to the question asked. I find it very frustrating for a person to ask a specific question, i.e. "whould a Nova or a Talon chuck be best for a mini lathe"?. Notice that almost none of the responses will relate to the question but instead be a sales job of why chuck xyz is the better choice. It would be great if the folks who have no direct knowledge of the matter at hand to sit back and learn something.

I seldom post here because of this skewing of the intent of the original post but will occasionally post directly to the person who originated the question.

So, put up your b.s. deflector and keep on with your good work.

Jim in Ohio

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#9

Sharpshooters and naysayers

Bob Hackett

>They just seem to come with the territory out there beyond the "box".

The problem with doing something new and controversial is that all those who jumped on the previously disappointing bandwagons seem to want you to carry the baggage from prior travels.

Forget `em Dave!I for one want to thank you and the rest of your group for putting in all the time you have in order to lay another alternative and opportunity out for us who want to advance.I also want to thank you for your restraint and civility.You set an example I hope others will recognize and follow.

I,for one,plan to pick up this ball and run with it.Perhaps it holds the key to allowing me to turn more of the lilac I`ve been struggling with for years.

Thanks again Dave,for everything.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#10

Thank you Dave

Ron in Drums PA

>Dave, most people, especially myself, are not well versed in writing skills. Sometimes, to the writer, his question may be innocent, but sound arrogant when read by another person. When I read another person's post, I try to take it with a grain of salt and not get upset.

You did an excellent job last night fielding all types of questions, and you should be proud of the way you handled yourself.

By the way, I have three hollow forms soaking right now, Thanks for letting us in on this great technique!

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#11

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Barbara Gill, Remlik Virginia

>I agree with all the positive responses that you have received here Dave. I also really appreciate all the work and dedication you and those who helped with your data gathering did to get to this point. Conducting a study that lasted as long as yours did takes more structure and initiative than I have. As one who plans on using your technique, thank you again.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#12

Re: Thank you Dave

Kevin Gerstenecker

>Dave, I echo all the responses that came before mine. I deeply appreciate the time and effort involved in bringing this process to light. All I can say at this point is it works for me, and that is all that is important IMHO. Thanks again for sharing and being the gentleman that you are. Good folks like you are a rarity in todays wacky world! Good luck in all that you do, and take care in Longview WA! Happy Holidays to you and yours!

Kevin

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#13

Thank you Dave

Roger Smith

>First as a very novice woodturner, I have very little to contribute to this board. Being the novice I am and also an observant person, I read the thread with a great deal of interest. I think you for sharing it with us. I may be a novice here, but I believe I have gain a lot of wisdom in some other areas, particularly about human nature. Many of us just do not want to believe until we see the proof.

This reminds me of a time I was fishing on Lake Eufaula. There were about 20 boats of people prefishing for a Redman T. at the dock when we loaded the boat. There was a lot of sour-graping (i.e. fish not biting, no size, rotton day, etc.) going on at the ramp. No one believe that we could have caught 3 bass over 8 lbs. until we took them out of the live well and release them. Dave, just keep taking the bowls out of the bucket. I believe. roger

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#14

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Dave, I have not read the other thread through to its bitter end, but I have to say that you took a big risk in publishing this data. However, that risk is not nearly as big a risk as the one you take living where you live. After all, I know the earth is flat, and by the time you get out to WA, you have got to be close to the edge!

Seriously, I have used your method as you well know. I saw two different customers this weekend who received bowls done using this method ONE FULL YEAR AGO, and they are happy and content with the quality of the piece they received. As we say around here, 'nuf said.

Thanks for your hard work. It sure saved my hide a few times.

Bill

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#15

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Karl in IA

>I do not post much here, but read and learn daily. Your method for handling wet blanks may well prove to be revolutionary. As a (former) scientist, the chemisty makes great sense. I look forward to giving your technique a try. It is sure to be successful.

Thanks to you and all your helpers for establishing this new and exciting technique.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#16

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Shawn - in ID

>At my job, if I have a container with more than ~1L of ethanol, I have to keep it in a flammables cabinet. If you are running a business, you might consider buying one, they aren't too pricey.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#17

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Mark Kauder

>Dave,

You know, if they don't think your system works, they don't have to use it. It will definately be their loss.

Thanks for including me in your test. I will continue to use the system.

Mark

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#18

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Shawn - in ID

>Dave - you do your best, offer a technique that you believe has promise/works and let others do what they will. It only takes one crack and people that are jaded about techniques like 'LDD' start thinking this is just one more trick that isn't going to work. I believe there may be room to adjust the technique and make it more consistent based on the mechanism of its action. Even if perfected, the truth is that 5 people can be taught how do make a pie by the same teacher at the same time - and they will have 5 different results when they go home to bake on their own. In your own niche you are pioneering a process with defensable physics/chemistry/biology - ignore the nay-sayers - unless they have constructive input.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#19

Re: Some musings on human nature.

David Galloway

>Hey Dave,

First off, you follow a grand tradition of woodturners in sharing your knowledge. I know of no other art/craft group that shares as readily as our group. I think that is one reason we are growing so quickly.

Second, there really isn't anything new under the sun. I was telling my friend Nick Cook about your process and he related that Rude O was doing the same process years ago. I asked him if he had continued with it to the end, he said "no", but was unable to tell me why he stopped.

Thirdly, all organizations or groupings of humanoids have people that seem natively antagonistic. It comes with the territory. While I have heard people say that they never have met a woodturner that wasn't a nice person, I don't agree. For the most part, we are a good group of folks, but I have a list....and I may be on some others list. Don't let the bastards get you down...or something like that.

Finally, I am so gratefult to you for sharing this information, as it is new to me. It got me to subscribe to More Woodturning, and it has gotten me in a "learner's mode" which is always a good thing.

Keep on turning, my friend,

David Galloway

GAW

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#20

Re: Some musings on human nature.

Spencer Cone

>Dave, you are a true Scholar and Gentleman! Do not let the sour grapes from the peanut gallery get you down. IMO you are one of the many very respected members of the board and I can't thank you and the others enough for the knowledge and inspiration I get every day here. Believe me that since discovering Wood Central and this Board my turnings have greatly improved and I hope to be soon posting examples of my work.

Regards,

Spence in Rhode Island

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#21

Triathletes do

Mike Schwing from Md.

>Dave, I read your comment about knowing no other group that shares so readily and my immediate thought was "triathletes do". I'm fortunate enough to belong to both groups.

I never cease to be amazed by both. In the "tri" world the top athletes train together even though they race each other fiercely. They all share each others' tricks and tips, and the elite racers are just as willing to share training time, info, etc.. with the lowly age grouper class. I know of no other sport where amateurs can participate with the world's best in the same race. Look at the pro sports - where do the amateurs and pros mix on the same field?

Here at WC, as opposed to some other forums on the net, the pros and amateurs mix just fine . I love it.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#22

Re: LDD and Alcohol

Ben

>Shawn & Dave,

The reason that LDD works or has some success is that there is some Polyethylene Glycol (PEG) in the soap. I checked several brand not all list it and many have no real list of ingredients on them but I sure most all use it. Dow Chemical list LDD as one of many uses of PEG. Conservators of waterlogged wood have been using PEG for decades to conserve sunken ships. The process is well documented on why and how it works. It has it own list of drawbacks. PEG is very hydroscopic and it displaces the water in the wood cells with PEG. The wood cells are then bulked up with the PEG and when removed and allowed to dry the wood cells cannot collapse, No cracking or warping.

Lee Valley Tolls sells PEG

Part # 05K98.05 and 05K98.01

Dave,

I think your work is great, keep researching the process.

A question you might want to look into, what do the wood cells look like before and after they are dry. Have the cells collapsed, this may have an affect on how the wood looks or should have looked and its strength. Also Dave I wonder if bulking the wood with Polyvinyl Alcohol would have any added effect. Polyvinyl alcohol is only about $10 a pound.

Best Wishes,

Ben

Email me I�d be interested in talking more about the process.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#23

Re: Some musings on human nature.

keith zimmerman, Normal, IL

>Dave, I read both threads about your alcohol soaking technique with great interest. I am a third-year turner that is always interested in learning something new that can help me get better at this craft. I applaud you for sticking your head out and offering this new process to the rest of us. I am awed when I think about the dedication it took to see the testing phase through to completion. I am impressed by the people who provided assistance in your testing. Having so many other people also use the technique, and all getting similar results states quite highly of it.

I anticipate using this technique in the near future and will expect to see similar results as others that have used it.

Thank you for sharing this process with us all.

keithz

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#24

PEG (long)

Shawn - in ID

>Yes, Ed Moulthrop is one who pioneered the use of PEG as I recall. I've never used it myself but, if memory serves me correctly, he had to soak for months and then the wood did not take oil or wax finishes well (I believe he used epoxy?). Dave has come up with a fine solution to the inadequacies of PEG since the ethanol will evaporate leaving behind a relatively dry form. With the methods of PEG and LDD you have the benefit of a material that still turns as if it were wet - creamy curls - but that is about it. Moreover, ethanol will work much faster and that really is the point of the process in addition to the benefits I've already pointed out above.

You suggest that PEG content is the reason LDD works - though some suggest this - I disagree with them. I have been manipulating the permeability of cell walls for quite a while with ethanol, methanol, many detergents, etc. Detergents are decent way to move water through material with cell walls that would otherwise preclude it in some cases - but I never thought wood was a good candidate the mechanism is different. And I believe the mechanism for LDD working is actually facilitation of the drying process not in the penetration per se - which is where the ethanol is doing its job..I'll stop there.

Re: Some musings on human nature.

#25

Lilac is tough to dry.

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>High Bob,

With lilac you have to find a large enough piece to yield a turning. Then when you cut it you find that the stupid stuff grows in a spiral making it hard to turn a bowl. I have a lot of pens and bottle stoppers made out of that stuff. Let me know if you solve the problem with it. The big stuff I got was down for several month and there wasn't much I could do with it. Remember the catcher Bob Ucker(sp). He said the way to catch a knuckle ball was to wait for it to stop rolling and then pick it up. With the lilac I waited for it to stop splitting then I figured out what I could make with the kinda big pieces. Lilac is wonderful stuff IMHO. Very fine grained and polishes beautifully.

Dave Smith

Mainly tired in Longview, WA.