Good morning

Bullies

I think it would be helpful if the bullies who tried to discourage David Weaver from posting would apologize.

Re: Good morning

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I do wonder if quite a number of former contributors have simply burnt themselves out. Or maybe they became demoralised by negative feedback to their contributions, lack of feedback, felt unappreciated, and so on, and moved on. I also suspect that the internet has moved on in the last couple of decades and people gravitate to more instant gratification, e.g., YouTube videos, Tiktok, 'influencers', and so on. I wish I had an answer for you, Ellis, and I'm sorry that I don't seem to have a solution to the challenge you face. I can't deny that my own contributions have diminished over the years I've been here which, if I recall correctly, stretch back to the late 1990s.I do think there's an element of, from my perspective, that I've seen essentially the same topics or questions raised multiple times, and I can't raise the enthusiasm to type out a response that's very similar to something I've typed up before, perhaps a few times. Slainte.

Re: Good morning

The lack of "enthusiasm to type out a response that's very similar to something typed up before" that Richard mentions points to the value of the archives. Recently I've found discussions from the past that have been very helpful for the project I'm working on. When I get past the planning stage I'll post some progress.

For me WoodCentral is the last good woodworking place on the internet. I'm sure some of the traffic has gone to Facebook but I'm not willing to sign up there. Youtube has some good information if you can find it but there's lots of promotion and no real discussion, which has been the best part of Woodcentral. Hearing different perspectives from knowledgeable people is lacking elsewhere, at least as far as I know, and it's what helps me the most.

Ellis, I'm going to keep thinking about this. If I don't have any suggestions I'll at least post some recent work when it's ready.

Re: Good morning

Do believe that Sgian Dubh is onto it.

Re: Good morning

I lost interest after the way David Weaver was treated here. Allowing some members to be arbiters of what gets posted here or not was not a good decision.

Rafael

You can integrate

I spoke to this on the general 'Woodworking' forum and you must hate duplication, as do I.

I kinda like the segregation implied by handwork--no plug(?) vs. The Big Bad CNC. But jeez, should I throw away my electric drill to chat on 'hand tools?

It's not racist, unless we stress one over the other. I have some nice handsaws, and a new shoulder, but saw-blade burn should only happen at  the end of electrical tools. And, my shoulder still hurts when it's pushing sandpaper or a saw.

I agree

I take responsibility for passing along some members' sentiments to David, but I certainly didn't banish him. He apparently read me wrong, and it's my fault for not anticipating that. Ironically, at the time, I was considering starting up a tool steel forum with him on the masthead, since he was such a prolific poster and his revelations were so 'cutting edge' and well-received by many here. 

I can't put the genie back in the bottle, so unless he has a change of heart, we'll have to move on without him. I'll reiterate my apologies to him directly. 

Thanks for your feedback.

Ellis

Re: I agree

Fine Woodworking during its black-and-white days had more than a few articles on tool steel, forging, making your own tools, etc.  99% of what was posted here was just a rehash of that, and in some cases not a very good rehash.  Some of us are burdened with being reasonably well-read.  Others obviously are not.

Re: I agree

The cap iron and tool steel *constant* harangue hasn't played well on other forums, either, so don't feel bad.  Compared to them, you've been more than accommodating.

Re: I agree

Ellis - I was disappointed because I knew someone who didn't have a clue in terms of what would actually happen here had romanced you into the idea that something would bring the place back. In my opinion, and I hope for your sake I'm ultimately wrong, nothing of the sort is likely and it sort of made for a convenient place to discuss things that aren't well discussed online (actual hand/eye heat treating of steel, how to test it when you're not going to send it to a lab or a heat treat service, and how to turn it into usable tools that are at least as good as commercial tools, but generally better). Parking in an empty parking lot for a while. 

I knew when you sent the email it wasn't your words and you were dealing with pressure from other people who made a promise they wouldn't keep, and I can see from the post count here, that came true, but I'm no visionary. it was true before - in the past when I'd wandered away - and others did, there would be periods of a week or two with no posts here at all. 

Eventually, Derek posted the text that you emailed me, and by that time, half a dozen people had emailed me guessing it was Derek so when Derek thought he was being "helpful" (wasn't, though) and posted almost the same thing word for word not long after, it wasn't much of a surprise. I'm sure you've gotten complaints from others about me, about Bill, about Warren, or whoever over time. All you have to do is know something and be enthusiastic or disagreeable or both and you can draw heat. Derek probably thinks I'm being harsh, but I've thought enough about whether or not I think it's fair, and I think it is not by any means unfair. 

Further reflection on what really happens with stuff posted here - does it get distilled or have any persistence. Not really. Would it be fair if I were here with the only gear I have? Maybe not either. 

My advice - don't let anyone woo you if they are either using your site as a dropping ground for stuff they blasted out ten other places, or if they threaten they'll leave and they don't contribute in the first place. 

Re: I agree

Burdened with being well read. Hilarious. 

I don't know what you read in Fine Woodworking, but I recall you once going out of your way to try to lobby me and whoever else was involved in a discussion that japanese white steel and whatever marples uses are the same thing. that would be one small example among a sea of clueless comments. 

For the 17 or 18 years I've read the internet and participated in discussions, you have been reliable - as the guy who hasn't done it, didn't know it at the time, but later recounted that you knew all about it. 

there must be a trail of portfolio and financial success that we've just never been advised of. Somehow. Over almost 20 years for me, and probably more than 20 for others who have watched this act. 

Symptoms and Disorders

Eventually, Derek posted the text that you emailed me, and by that time, half a dozen people had emailed me guessing it was Derek so when Derek thought he was being "helpful" (wasn't, though) and posted almost the same thing word for word not long after, it wasn't much of a surprise. I'm sure you've gotten complaints from others about me, about Bill, about Warren, or whoever over time. All you have to do is know something and be enthusiastic or disagreeable or both and you can draw heat. Derek probably thinks I'm being harsh, but I've thought enough about whether or not I think it's fair, and I think it is not by any means unfair.  

David, to be clear about the above quotation, you are referring to my posting a comment on this forum, which tallied with something stated by Ellis. You assume that the comment was mine, influencing Ellis. What if the comment was Ellis’, and I repeated him? Or that it originated elsewhere? What if … what if .. But you had made up your mind. Not that this is the first time that this topic has aired, and you have flounced off like a prima donna.

There are two issues here, and they are not about you. This message is also not really about you, so get over it. The message is for the forum. 

Let’s face it, Wood Central is very ill. The Hand Tool Forum is dying, nearly dead. What keeps a forum alive are postings and discussion. Wood Central is starving generally, and the Hand Tool forum is very emaciated. The old die-hards of Yesterday have all left. They are remembered and mourned. One or two posters are not enough to feed it and help it thrive. It needs many. And I am not referring to those who respond to a post, but those who initiate a thread. The population of WC is old, averaging 70 years, tired and lack drive. We desperately need new blood with new ideas and new questions, and more content. Those that cry out for your content, David, are a part of the problem … because you enable them to sit back and be entertained. The Charlies, the Raphaels and the Warrens … when did you ever read a thread they initiated? Have they ever offered up work of their own? It is not that you post on steel, blades, and the like - this is a Hand Tool forum after all, and it is has a place - but that you post in such a voluminous manner that the forum was drowning under their shear weight, and losing all resemblance to a woodworking forum. You can do this on the Australian forum, which you do, but there are many forums there, and you are well received because you have valuable information to impart. I am one of your fans. Not your enemy.

This is not about you, David. This is about the survival of WoodCentral. We could, as a few of us suggested to Ellis, have a metal work forum here. But it would not deal with the main problem - how do we encourage a greater participation in the forums? I love this place. Ellis welcomed a number of us in when Badger Pond closed down. I have a strong emotional affiliation with Wood Central and for Ellis. I am on a few woodworking forums, and none have an Ellis. 

So David … everyone … what can you do for the survival of Wood Central? Bring in new blood? Post something woodworking related? Builds, new tools, techniques, favourite tools, history and news? Would you be prepared to mentor newbies? I suggested to Ellis that we could advertise and have a slogan something like, “Come and build on WoodCentral, where you will learn from the best team around”. Are you up for this, or are you just going to  whinge and blame others?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Symptoms and Disorders

I would add sheer weight of photography as well.  There is still nobody on any of these forums working wood to a 17th century standard, much less an 18th century one.  One or two self-proclaimed "masterpieces" in an entire lifetime of woodworking vs. putting out something like that every week and a half --- completely different thing.

I more or less begged David to summarize his results in some sort of paper.  When he didn't, wouldn't, or couldn't find the time I tuned out and I'm pretty sure a lot of other people did as well.  Just too much to follow, especially given this forum's funky software (which in itself is a problem). A lot of material to wade through, as well, to find out that quality 01, hardened to the high 50s to 60s, is as good a choice as any at the end of the day.  I think that was the conclusion, right, or did that change?  

Re: Symptoms and Disorders

And at the end of the day, we're talking about edge longevity amongst a crowd that largely couldn't plane wood continuously, and vigorously, for 30 minutes if they had a gun to their head.  Guys are prepping with machines, and doing a little finish jointing and a few passes with a smoothing plane. That's it, other than being mad about somebody pointing it out.  Being able to plane cherry for two hours before needing a touch-up is tantamount to maintaining an erection for two hours without Viagra -- a complete joke.

I agree, Charlie.

Re: I agree, Charlie.

Somewhere there's an unwashed genius working with a kit of tools that would fit in a knapsack and working rings around everybody who's ever appeared on a woodworking forum since the dawn of woodworking forums.

Always worth keeping this in the back of one's mind.

Re: I agree

Let's. Talk.  About. Something. Else.

Re: I agree, Charlie.

... and using "crap" steel to do it.

Re: Good morning

1) New forum software;

2) Metallurgy subforum;

3) Project photo subforum;

4) Pure hand tool build subforum -- from material conversion through completion;

5) Brand-cheerleading subforum.

Re: Good morning

Admittedly a lot of cross-pollination between #2 and #5.

Re: Good morning

The Australian woodworking forum that Derek mentioned, with its many (desirable) subforums, has the effect of turning 800 lb. gorillas into manageable lemurs.  

Re: Symptoms and Disorders

You know a lot of magazines are on the ropes I think because the market is a lot less interested in seeing Shaker, Shaker-influenced, and generally stripped down builds coming out of $50K+ shops.  There was a time in the late 1980s and early 1990s when relatively well-heeled retirees with lots of money to spend were gobbling that sort of thing up.  Demographics have changed. Economics have changed.

Magazines are in trouble, machinery manufacturers are in trouble or are already gone.  Looking at ads in old American Woodworker magazines from the early 1990s and late 1980s -- man, tons of those businesses are not only gone but long-gone. Delta is a complete joke now but used to be one of the standard setters over here at least.  I don't think they even offer a full sized lathe in their lineup anymore -- all minis and midis.

There just aren't nearly as many people around who are going to spend well into five figures in equipment and outfitting a shop to build the equivalent of Shaker/American Country jelly cabinets.  You can extrapolate a lot of this phenomenon to forums as well IMO.  What's left to talk about then, well, tool steel and the finer points of setting up a smoothing plane.  Three months of that, much less going on three years' worth, and you get what you've got here.

Re: Symptoms and Disorders

Charlie......what is also lacking/absent is a Norm Abram.......a charming/likeable blue-collar guy who would come on TV every Saturday and build something in a nice woodshop.......and who would be making progressively more complicated pieces as the series went on......demonstrating more and more tools......he came to hand tools late in the 20 year run of The New Yankee Workshop......but, his and Roy's influence on the popularity of woodworking cannot be overstated (although some will say so)......

Many have tried to take his place since he went off TV.......no one has.......