delay times for buying chisels

Re: delay times for buying chisels

Let us know how they work out for you.

Sorry to hear about the Veritas chisels delay. That *is* unacceptable.

Re: delay times for buying chisels

Veritas tools from "Lie -Nielson" ?

Lie-Nielsen has no "o" and no Veritas tools.

Re: delay times for buying chisels

I hope LV are able to resolve their supply issues. There are people now offering what appears to be tools heavily inspired by their products

https://youtu.be/eiIDhAmWJlA

Re: delay times for buying chisels

 Yeah, I'm loosing it when it comes to spelling. I rely on spell check. I recall that my computer spelling check did have it underlined. But I thought the computer algorithm wasn't sophisticated about the spelling of names. And I was wrong about that. When you get to my age, stuff happens. We'll see if I can do some good dovetails with these new tools.

Re: delay times for buying chisels

Eliot....hope you had a great summer and are now back home and in your shop turning and making boxes.....it's a shame about the chisels.....but, you've recovered very nicely with Blue Spruce.....nothing shabby about that.....post some pics next week after they arrive.....

Chisels have never been an issue with dovetails for me

Probably the least critical thing in my opinion. Any piece of steel with last long enough to chop out waste.

Re: Chisels have never been an issue with dovetails for me

Uh,oh! I've spent a fair amount of dough on these chisels! What would you say is the most important part of getting good dovetails?

Re: delay times for buying chisels

So, did you cancel Veritas chisels or Lie-Nielson chisels?

... when it brings a smile to your face ...

Eliot, do not second-guess yourself at this stage. In the BS, you are getting a set of very fine chisels, and one's which excel in paring and chopping dovetails. 

I really enjoy handcutting joinery, and in this case, dovetails. What makes a great dovetailing chisel can add up to a number of features, and these may be prioritised differently by all. 

It could be the blades having minimal lands, which enable them to sneak into tight areas. It could be the length of the blade - not too long - as closer to the work can offer better feedback.

It could be the steel and the ability of the blade to take and hold a sharp edge. Plus the thickness of the blade, with a thinner blade feeling lighter and more like a scalpel than a sabre. 

The shape, size, length and width of the handle, and the balance of the chisel, is for many what a dovetail chisel is all about. 

What makes a great dovetail chisel is one that brings a smile to your face when you pick it up. Good looking and well-crafted tools inspire me to do my best. 

I purchased Blue Spruce when Dave Jesky started making them. There was nothing like them at the time, outside of Lie Nielsen. For different reasons, LN, Veritas and BS are all in the top tier. The one negative comment about the BS you will hear is that the steel is A2. And I say, so what. These chisels get frighteningly sharp and hold a the edge long enough to do a lot of work. On the positive side, they have the thinnest blades (at 1/8") and a light feel.

When I purchased mine, in African Blackwood, I added 1/4" skew chisels for clearing sockets. Dave was not keen on making fishtails, which I nagged him to make. Eventually he did make them. The largest I have is 1" and then down to 3/4", 1/2", 1/4", 3/16" and 1/8" ...

Enjoy yours!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Patience, a good eye, and practice, practice, practice

Consider the old adage that "tools do not a craftsman make". I've seen pictures of people sitting on the ground using a chisel made from a leaf spring, making furniture. Don't get me wrong, I love high end tools, but I've had a very fortunate life and that has provided me the opportunity to invest in them for decades. Cheaper tools just need a few more trips to the stone to get the job done.

Re: Patience, a good eye, and practice, practice, practice

Nicely put, Elliot!

Derek, are the BS chisels a uniform thickness or do they taper in their length?

I'll be honest, I've been laying a trail for you to comment on the Katz-Moses router plane but I'll be more overt. 

I think it's a best a little cheeky. It looks like a Veritas with a different adjuster on it with no benefit aside from a claimed reduction in backlash. Thoughts?

Re: Patience, a good eye, and practice, practice, practice

I don't want to appear to be answering for Derek......he's probably sleeping now and will answer for himself later.....but, that router plane you mentioned certainly looks to be a complete knock off of the Lee Valley product......probably has every dimension, shape, and embellishment except the LV label.....even similarly priced.

Lie Nielsen has been knocked off by the Chinese......and now it's apparently Lee Valley's turn.....it will be interesting to see which LV design they knock off next. Personally, I've been paying more to get the original works of LN and LV (I know they also copied other makers).....it's a decision each of has to make.

Re: Patience, a good eye, and practice, practice, practice

Roger

I tend to agree, although I confess to being a hypocrite at times. I have owned very close copies of tools that were very close copies.

An often cited reference is Record who copied the Stanley bench planes, the only difference of note is Record chose blue!

In the UK, the Veritas is the same price or cheaper than the Katz-Moses version. That alone is enough to stick with a company that makes good tools (Veritas). 

I wish Katz-Moses no I'll, I think he missed a trick by not tweaking the look. There was a strong backlash against WoodRiver planes. It will be interesting to see something similar happens here.

Provenance

I wish Katz-Moses no I'll, I think he missed a trick by not tweaking the look. There was a strong backlash against WoodRiver planes. It will be interesting to see something similar happens here.

I feel absolutely no honor for "Made in China" or "China"; actually complete distrust of something designed to fail, or never work. The crooks who sucked out of "Made in USA" and over to China live in the USA and never picked up a screwdriver. 

There was a time when 'made in USA' was tragically inferior, think early 70's when the first CNC machines entered the machine rooms. I watched several machinists nurse WWII tools and struggle to build and maintain a machining line. 

Thank gods for modern replacement parts.

Likewise, I have less disdain for a small home-shop cranking out ghosts of successful tools. Both LV and LN do that. 

Re: Provenance

50% of the Machine we use in our Shop are mostly Wadkin. Repairable and indestructible, all made here in the UK. The other stuff is Italian. It's ok but it won't survive as long.

I don't know how you feel about Japanese manufacturing. They certainly showed how the UK with its mess of a car industry was capable with the right methods and leadership. British Leyland was pretty horrific stuff. How we had an icon like the Mini and messed it up is beyond me.

Back on point, considering I already have a LV I don't need one, and their price is more than reasonable considering their producing tools in Canada.

Re: Provenance

Apologies for spelling, I'll blame predictive. Oh, and the Wadkin stuff must be 60 years old and still doing stirling work.

Re: Provenance

I've watched some very interesting videos on YouTube by Lie Nielsen showing the designing, refining, casting, machining and testing of their shooting board plane.....very impressed with all of the effort, time, and money invested by LN in making a product that they can proudly bring to market bearing their name.....in fairness to them, they have to be able to recoup the value of all that development in the pricing of their products and also make a profit to stay in business.

It bothers me that someone else can disregard all of that and simply make a passable copy of a successful tool.....sell it at a reduced price.....and become very profitable in the process. I want/need to watch my spending like anyone else.....and these knock offs perform well.....but!!!???

Re: ... when it brings a smile to your face ...

Thanks, Derek. You always give me a lift. I don't have any illusions about these BS chisels making me a better craftsman. I'll have to practice, practice, as everyone is telling me. But I like that; you know I do about one watercolor per day. That's a lot of practice. One has to enjoy doing it; there's a certain feel about letting the watercolor paint sink into the paper surface. It's a visceral thing. I'll have to wait and see if I get the same satisfaction when practicing dovetails with my new Blue Spruce chisels. So far, to be honest, I haven't felt it when trying to make dovetails with the tools that I have. It always has seemed "picky" and frustrating. But I am determined. Thanks for your encouragement.

Re: ... when it brings a smile to your face ...

Hi Eliot

Having a surgeon’s scalpel in your hand does not automatically lead to the results in your imagination. Being able to visualise what you want as an end result is important, nonetheless. 

There are steps I follow, always. If you wish to obtain precise results, you need steps which have precise moves. I have written about these many times. For example, after sawing the tails to the baseline, deepen the baseline between the kerfs, and then create a chisel wall … before you do anything else. This step ensures that, when you do take the last paring strokes at the baseline, the baseline is never pushed backwards.

The point I am making is that you also need to think clinically, with forward planning, and this is what turns the chisel into a tool for working precisely. The alternative is to use the chisel as a pickaxe, where it becomes inconsequential. 

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: delay times for buying chisels

I don't know if you are needling me about not spelling Nielsen properly. I believe my original order was with Lie Nielsen to purchase Veritas chisels. These are the ones I cancelled. I admit I am confused because I also read that Veritas is connected with Lee Valley. At any rate, it's going to be Blue Spruce chisels that should arrive next week.

BS and KM

Derek, are the BS chisels a uniform thickness or do they taper in their length?

I'll be honest, I've been laying a trail for you to comment on the Katz-Moses router plane but I'll be more overt.�

I think it's a best a little cheeky. It looks like a Veritas with a different adjuster on it with no benefit aside from a claimed reduction in backlash. Thoughts?

Hi Graham

The Blue Spruce dovetail chisels do not taper. I can imagine some being critical of this aspect of the design but, in my opinion, it is made possible because the blades are relatively short … not butt chisel short, not oire nomi short, but between their butt chisel and their bench chisel in length. Tapering would be needed for extra rigidity, and these chisels do not require this. The result is a lighter, more agile chisel.

I have viewed Katz-Moses as a “Copier”. That is, someone who copies the design of another, perhaps with a little aesthetic twist to personalise an item, but essentially just to have something to sell. An example is his dovetail guide, which is a copy of David Barron’s design. Of course, DB’s ideas are a spin off from the Veritas dovetail guide.

Below is a link to a video comparing the two guides, by Matt Estlea. It is not by chance that I link to his video as Matt’s fast-talking, shouty, salesman-style presentation (which I dislike intensely) is in the manner of Katz-Moses.�  This no doubt reflects my age and generation! 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd6VD1mXvRA

I do wonder where the KM router plane is being made? This is not a statement of prejudice but finance - made in China would make more sense as I see KM slowly building into a tool “manufacturer” business. In the video, his design borrows/copies heavily from the Veritas Large Router Plane, and I would imagine that he would be transgressing patents here. I doubt that those who follow him on YouTube would be concerned with this since they are beginners or those looking for skill shortcuts.�

To be quite honest, I do not know whether it is the tool-as-a-shortcut, the copied design, or his salesman presentation that irks me most.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: delay times for buying chisels

No needling intended.

Veritas is the Lee Valley house brand.

Lie-Nielsen (however it is spelled) does not sell Rob Lee's house brand.

So, I really was trying to find out if you were posting about an order at LN or one at LV. Both of them have had challenges with backorders.

Re: BS and KM

Thanks Derek

I appreciate hearing your thoughts on both fronts. From what I can tell the KM is made in China. https://hongdui.en.alibaba.com/ is the nearest I can find. I'd love to see both castings together and compare. 

I don't see the benefit of saving 20 dollars by going for a KM. It's highly likely the resale value will be significantly lower. Not the first consideration for many but purchasers are most likely hobby users and things do change.

In addition, if you like hand tools, LV has perhaps the most comprehensive offering. It would seem a shame to undermine that effort for 20 dollars. In the UK there is no difference in price! So it's an even clearer choice from my perspective. I can empathise when something off shored is half the price and the quality is the same.

I wonder what, if anything will be next. Little things like dovetail guided don't irk me too much. In today's world you have to become Mr/Mrs dovetail and constantly be pushing a gizmo for it to work. If you're prepared to work/hawk hard enough you're welcome to a bit of income for small devices. 

My guess would be see marking gauges, perhaps a block plane? It'll be interesting to see what happens. I've just been surprised at the lack of discussion based on the router. Therefore I've tried to provoke conversation on a few message boards.

Re: delay times for buying chisels

O.K. The order was for Veritas chisels from Lie Nielsen. I ordered them back on March 5th. Lie Nielsen has been having really bad supply chain and other manufacturing problems. When they told me that they couldn't get them to me even by the end of September, I finally gave up and ordered a set from Blue Spruce. BS is also having similar problems; but, apparently, the issues are not so bad because I'm supposed to be getting the tools this week.I guess the big story is that just about everybody has been affected by the pandemic.