veritas chisels

Re: veritas chisels

LOL, "supply chain issues" vs. The Sheffield Blitz during WWII.

Re: veritas chisels

Yes, the Germans were trying to knock out the steel production. And that was my point: what"s a little time waiting for some tools compared to bombs falling on you head? But to be fair, if we think this way all the time, practically nothing would bother us, but things do.

Re: veritas chisels

I talked to Lee Valley again today and they told me my Veritas chisels set should arrive in mid September, when I'm back in Maryland. This time the fellow said it was the steel that was holding them up -- something about it having to come from Europe.

Re: veritas chisels

Why do you say to hollow grind? As a matter of fact I do, but why is it important for these chisels?

Re: veritas chisels

Hi Eliot,

PMV-11 alloy steel is quite abrasion-resistant.  Feels to me more abrasive-resistant than A2, but less than 3V or M2 for example.  If hollow-ground (as you do), you can put a super-keen edge on it with whatever stone(s) you ordinarily use.  However, I think flat-ground PMV-11 chisels would be a bear to sharpen, likely requiring diamond.  

Of course, with repeated sharpening, the hollow shrinks and the flats grow.  And then you may find yourself wanting an aggressive stone.  Or you may not.  But if you do, a Shapton 1000 is a very aggressive first stone (hat tip to Derek), and I like these for all alloy, especially when it ‘wears in’ a bit and becomes less brash:

Amazon Link

Not pushing Amazon, a better price may be found elsewhere.

Wiley

Re: veritas chisels

Thank you ,Wiley. From what you have said it looks as though I'll be alright with the carbon boron wheels that i use. Even before Derek posted about it, I had set up these wheels with some Tormek guides, and I can get a keen edge on just about anything this way. Now all I have to do is get back to MD and wait for the shipment from Lee Valley!

Re: veritas chisels

Yes, you’re in great shape with the CBN wheels + Tormek rests.  I do much the same, following Derek’s testing and recommendation.

Wiley

Re: veritas chisels

Do you follow up with the so-called unicorn polish? I've never really understood what that was all about.

Re: veritas chisels

Do you follow up with the so-called unicorn polish? I've never really understood it.

Re: veritas chisels

Hi Eliot!

Yes, I do ‘my version’ of the unicorn polish. � I say ‘my version’ because most here use a bench grinder. � I use a cheap drill press which turns a 4” diameter wheel at a pretty slow 1100 rev/minute. � Circumference of wheel ~ 1 ft. � So approx. 1100 lineal feet per min. � Compare with say, an 8” wheel at 1700 rpm. � C ~ 2 feet. � Speed~ 3400 lineal feet/minute.

I experimented to find a wheel with the right nap. Can discuss this if you want.

I like to present the bevel to the wheel at just a hair more than tangent—don’t want a lot of roundover, so you have to allow for the nap of the wheel furling over the edge. �

Now here is something sure to draw an argument: � Do you buff the back? � I do a light quick touch at a dead tangent, so that the nap is just licking the edge. � A heavy hand on the back will ruin the chisel, somthere9n is the argument whether to do it at all. � The purpose is the same as the late David Charlesworth’s ‘ruler trick’—to polish away the last little wear bevel on the back that escaped the stones.

Wiley….glad we’re all back!😀

What do you not understand

The process, result and benefit seemed to be clearly described in the Pop. Wood article.  What did the article not describe adequately?

Re: veritas chisels

I tried to respond to your post earlier, and it appeared somewhere else,where Bill Tindall got hold of it and responded with something not helpful. I am trying to get a better idea of what the unicorn method does, and I had asked you if you follow up with this unicorn method and, if so, what is your experience with it.

Re: veritas chisels

 I use the buffer every time I sharpen anything from kitchen knives to chisels. But, it is the profile that is important, not how it is obtained.  Before I bought a buffer I successfully profiled on the last sharpening media.  

We spent much effort in preparing the Fine Woodworking publication that we expected would answer the questions of why and how, supported with stunning pictures.  Again, what was not clear?  Weaver has a more detailed discussion in the WC Articles.  

Re: veritas chisels

Hi Eliot,

I did see your previous query about the Unicorn buffing as a final step in sharpening.  My answer was ‘yes’, and I added a little detail (see up above in this same thread):

https://www.woodcentral.com/home/forum/Hand_Tools.pl?read=504293

A useful way to think about Unicorn is that you are putting a nano-bevel on the edge.  So if the final bevel off the stones is, say, 32 degrees, you are looking to take this to a final angle of maybe 34-35.  But you don’t want, say, 45 degrees.  So the critical variables are (1) the angle of presentation, and (2) time—how long is the edge held to the buffer.  

So how do you judge the angle of presentation?  When I hold the chisel to the wheel, I first find the tangent, where the wheel is right at thenfinal angle off the stones.  Then I add just a tiny bit more angle.  It’s a slow-speed wheel, so I use a light touch, and about 5 seconds.

Will post a photo later.   Wiley

Not simply a second bevel

The shape of this bevel is what is critical.  It needs to be a convex bevel, and could have been named as such, not capable of being defined by this or that degrees. Adding a piddly 2-3 degrees to the primary bevel would not provide the benefit observed.   The nano part of it could be 60 degrees.   Had we named the process functionally, my preference, the process would have been easier to understand.  BTW, the benefit of a convex bevel was discovered by the knife people ages ago.  

Re: Not simply a second bevel

This is a good discussion.  Bill makes correct points about (1) shape of bevel, and (2) defining what is meant by ‘angle’.  I’ll take these in turn.

1.  Shape of bevel.  The wheels we are talking about have some amount of nap, or at least softness.  In my case the nap is maybe 1/32”.  Others will vary, but all these wheels will deflect and furl over the blade edge.  In every case, this will produce a convex nano-bevel.  Bill is right—this is different from a flat facet produced by a stone.  It is very tiny, and convex.

2.  Defining the angle.  The convex nano-bevel will have a final tangent angle.  In my hands, the final tangent of the convex nano-bevel is about 3-4 degrees higher than the faceted angle off the last stone.  I get this 3-4 degrees by presenting the chisel to the wheel at just a hair beyond tangent.  

I know this 3-4 degrees from repeated measurement, and here is how I measure:  Take the chisel after buffing, and slide it along the benchtop bevel-down, starting at a low angle, and gradually raise the handle as you slide it along.  As it is being raised, the chisel will at some point ‘bite’ into the benchtop.  The angle where it first bites is the effective cutting angle.  It is this angle that I am measuring at 3-4 degrees higher than the pre-buffed edge.  I like to have a final angle of 30-33 off the stones, and 33-37 after buffing.  Others’ mileage will vary—I take it Bill wants a steeper final tangent—in the end we each of us experiment to find what works best at our bench.

Others’ viewpoints and experiences would be helpful in answering the OP’s (Eliot’s) question.

Wiley

Re: 80 and buff

Yeah buffing.  I remember pointing out you could buff a chisel off an 80 grit grind to a razor sharp edge, with LV green.  Fast. Was not believed, but someone did try it, and it worked.  Good to see people have found a method they actually like and can pass on.  I think that was back in the "nothing is faster than diamond paste" days.  I found that useful in my work.  And still use it mostly for touching up head knives.

geometry

There is no single tangent to a convex surface.  Tangent to the middle of the convex bevel is a single value.  Is this the value you are reporting?

The result of deforming the soft wheel is going to result in a distribution of force from smaller to larger approaching the tip of the chisel. 

The result is an increase in material removal toward the tip, resulting in a convex bevel that increases substantially larger at the tip. The bevel will be presented to the wheel at an angle perhaps +/- 5 degree from the tangent.   

In the limit the angle at the tip could be 60 degrees.  Would need more magnification to be sure.   

An application- not so fine woodworking

I am repairing a section of trailer deck.  Requires bashing a 45 degree angle on the end of some very hard yellow pine.  I am pounding with a 2 pound hammer which is putting huge impact force on the tip.  Yet the chisel needs to stay sharp to cut through the hard pine.  Solution- convex bevel.  The presentation time of chisel to wheel in this case was 2X typical (4 seconds) to establish a more robust convex bevel.  It held up fine.  I would have destroyed a straight bevel in this application.  

Re: geometry

Hi Bill,

Yes, the tangent angle will vary all along any curved surface.  When I said ‘final tangent of the convex nanobevel’, I mean the tangent at the very tip of the cutting edge.  I gave a method for estimating it—it’s the angle where the chisel first bites when you slide it bevel-down along your bench, and gradually raise it.

Great photos!

Wiley

you are describing sharpening not Unicorning

You are confusing sharpening with an abrasive loaded wheel and application of a tiny convex bevel to the very tip of the tool.    

Re: geometry

Bill is correct. The Unicorn is about creating a nano bevel rather than sharpening a bevel. The act of buffing will sharpen, but it is the steepness of the nano bevel which holds the edges for a longer period of time. I am not convinced that the shape of the nano bevel - rounded vs flat - is all important, but both should do the job. As it is, the bevel would be rounded by the machine buffing process. I recall Bill started out with a Unicorn on a flat strop, and this worked for him.

The Unicorn is ultra tiny, hence my calling it nano at the start of David’s discussions here. With regards wheel types, hard wheels, whether cloth or leather, work very quickly, and the risk here is high that the edge will be dubbed instead. Consequently, a very soft wheel is used.

Here is a photo of my set up, with two wheels. Nice and clean at that stage! The harder wheel on the left uses Veritas green compound. It is for sharpening. The soft wheel on the right uses a white compound which is much more aggressive.

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/8C8yTmmK/M4-2.jpg[/img]

Regards from Perth

Derek

This claim invites and experiment

 I am not convinced that the shape of the nano bevel - rounded vs flat - is all important,   

A comparison would determine if there is a difference.  It is undeniable that a convex tip will be stronger in resisting deflection.  A drawing of the two cases will reveal more metal behind the tip with a convex bevel.   It remains to be demonstrated that there is a significant difference.   

There is no need for a buffer is there is no difference. Just raise the tool 3 degrees for a couple of strokes on the last sharpening medium to achieve a small flat secondary bevel.   

Re: geometry

There is nothing new about any of this.  Drew Langsner called them 'rolled bevels.'  Hoadley, I think, called it "dubbing to extend edge life" or something similar.  You could round them a half inch or more up the chisel or plane iron and the wood wouldn't know, or care. Anybody who still has Frid's dovetailing video (VHS only) can watch him doing the same thing at the buffer -- a little tilt up at the end.

Time to put this canard to bed that something "new" was invented.  What a bunch of bullshit.

Re: geometry

Found a YouTube video entitled "Tage Frid Woodworking profile 2" where he finishes sharpening a chisel on a buffer......the scene is at the very end of the video......interesting that this method of sharpening may have been around a long time .....and Tage Frid of all people......ironic.