What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

Router plane????

That is a tough one...

John in New Mexico

I mostly use an LN 10 1/4 for this, but it is less than ideal. Ages ago I bought a Stanley skew rabbet block plane thinking it would work better than the boss's Stanley 10 1/4 where I worked - no dice. Then tried a big infill shoulder plane, which might have been best if it had been a decent plane (it wasn't).

For smaller tenons I've used that LN medium shoulder plane with some success, but like the 10 1/4 its not perfect for the job.

I would guess that a purpose built plane would be required for this - something big enough to grab comfortably with one hand while the other holds the rail on the bench against some sort of fence. That is how I've always done this and why things like the 10 1/4 kind of work - I can grab it around the frog and use it one handed. Same with the shoulder plane, grab the back under that big bronze handle. The infill shoulder was bulky enough to grab over the top but still fairly light for its size (its problem was the bed wasn't square to the sole - shop made from a casting or something similar without a doubt).

Trouble is I doubt you're going to spend time building the right plane, so that one is out.

Next thing I might try absent the perfect plane is a really sharp, wide & long chisel. I expect that was how the job was done traditionally, but that is nothing more than a guess.

The best way I've seen tenons made was with two small saw blades on a shaper. It looked appalling, but it was safe enough really, putting aside the unguarded blades. The offcuts just kind of flicked back onto the floor next to the operator.

Does this mean your old Delta tenon jig is up for sale?

I use a bull nose hand plane

Re: Router plane

Henry (Raleigh NC)

I started with LV shoulder plane, which I like.

But in my inexperienced hands I accomplished tapered tenons too often (i.e when removing more than a thousandths).

I have given into tools acquisition syndrome and purchased a LV med? router plane (i.e.not the small one). I have used this once and found it to be a robust tool. Using other pieces to surrounding the piece of interest (to support the place) can assure a reasonably uniform surface.

I don't have much experience (with either), but in the next build I will reach for the router plane first, before the shoulder plane.

Henry

Re: What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

William Duffield

Unless I am fitting really huge tenons (e.g., in 6x6 locust)* the LN large shoulder plane is my weapon of choice. It is easy to fix the worst of the ergonomic problems. Using some 400 grit w/d SiC sandpaper, simply knock down the arises in the sides of the mouth, especially the sharp point at the top rear of the adjustable mouth block. After you have made them more comfortable, do the same to the arises around the top of the body and the top of the mouth. When you are done, the plane will feel like it weighs about half as much. An alternative strategy is to replace the plane with the equivalent Veritas plane. The moveable pegs help you hold it more comfortably. *For really large tenons, I instead use a Stanley carriage maker's rabbet plane (#10 or #10 1/2). IIRC, I have the larger one.

Re: What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I use a saw and aim for a fit. I use a wide chisel if necessary. It helps a great deal to use the same mortise gauge for the tenon as for the mortise and cut to the line.

Nicholson, writing in 1812, wrote that if the saw strayed from the line, either from carelessness, or because the saw was faulty, one could resort to a wide paring chisel and a skew rabbet plane.

Re: What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

Paul in NJ

A wide (1-1/2 to 2") sharp paring chisel. It helps if it has a little rocker in it. Concentrate the pressure on the leading edge when you flatten the back. A perfectly flat back will tend to dive in a little more. I like to start at the corner and pare diagonally across. Watch the way the grain runs, you might want to start from the shoulder. Light paring, easy does it. You can undercut the shoulder too with the chisel.

Paul Dzioba

Re: What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

Michael Mocho

Veritas low angle skewed rabbet plane - it's been a real game changer, and can be used with one hand. It has set screws to keep the blade from tilting, and an adjustable mouth. (something my mother wanted me to have) Excellent tool!

Re: What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

Charlie

Record 311 shoulder plane for me when necessary. I don't have a rabbet block plane.

Otherwise, mark them and saw 'em a hair lean. Sword-in-a-scabbard tight is all you need. If your knuckles turn white pushing in the tenon piece, and properly hot, thin hide glue is scraped out of the joint, they're too tight. They're not going anywhere. Trust the glue. Put a pin in them if aesthetics will allow it. Joints in a frame, and leg-to-rail joints are additive. It'll be fine.

Re: What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

Jack Dover

+1 for the wide paring chisel, they're the best tool for this job.

I think an issue with shoulder/rabbet planes is that they don't really have any reference surface, therefore creating a tenon tapered in every direction is effortless. Using a tenon depth gauge (just a long flat off-cut with a screw or an eyebolt through it) I observed a couple of things: first, in 99% cases it's not really a "too thick" tenon, it's rather an "uneven" tenon - there's just a few spots that needs to be trimmed down (I shoot for a fit from a saw too), and second — these spots are quite narrow.

After some thinking I decided to give chisels another try and this time I've tried different chisels and different techniques. I found that a wide chisel, something like 1 1/2" requires the least effort, though today I could get away with 1/2" chisel easily. Also it works best with the freshly sharpened chisel. If a chisel doesn't catch a shaving and requires raising a handle even a little bit from a level position it's going to present same issues as a shoulder plane.

Agree

Wiley Horne

The reason I like a wide chisel (like 1-1/4 to 1-1/2) is that I can see exactly what is being cut. Further, the varying line of pickup of the shaving, and its varying thickness along the chisel edge as you cut, shows you the exact topography of the tenon cheek.

Interesting comment on the rocker! I’ve come to think that many if not most paring cuts can use fine guidance to prevent diving. Not the very finest shavings—there, a perfectly flat-registered back is great. But a longish paring chisel with a small rocker provides very fine control against diving.

Bill might want a simple jig and router plane to get the precision he speaks of.

Wiley

Chiseling question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Several advocated chiseling. I'm not understanding how.

Let's start with the need and equipment available. I have a sharp chisel of any size needed. I have a tenon of any size 0.005" too thick. It is not obvious how to begin.

I can chisel with the grain, across the grain or some other orientation.

I can start on the surface/cheek, pick up a shaving and continue across. Then reverse and clear off the high spot not chiseled by starting on the surface.

Or I can, in principal, start 0.005" below the surface and shave straight across. I have had no success starting a chisel a few thousandths inch below the surface. Rarely is the edge sharp enough to target a tiny bit below the surface.

Or something I have not considered?

From those that actually employ a chisel, rather than having read about it, where does the chisel begin and what direction does it travel?

Router plane useless for my need

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The router plane registers off the face of the stick with the tenon on the end. While once adjusted for the tenon at hand it will mow off what is needed, the depth adjustment may need to be diddled with for each tenon. No router plane has a convenient means of quickly fine adjusting the depth.

Were it not for the cumbersome means of holding it, the shoulder plane would meet the need. It registers off what is being shaved. If the tenon needs thinning, the thinning can be accomplished by successive shaving removal.

I tried a block plane, followed by paring the area next to the shoulder that the block plane doesn't reach. Two steps but it works with less aggravation than wrangling the LN shoulder plane.

I am wondering if the right kind of rasp would be best for removing 0.005 of wood from a tenon cheek(to use and example of a typical fitting need). I don't know much about rasps. They are too expensive to go buy and try.

Re: I use a bull nose hand plane

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I had not considered this option. I have one I use for one specific need and mostly forget I own it. Will try straight away.

Re: What is best for adjusting tenon thickness

Steve D, in CT

It sounds like your go-to is a shoulder plane but you don't like the specifics of your shoulder plane.

I have used shoulder planes, router plane, chisel and #10 plane depending on the size and condition of the tenon. If you have the skill to pare a couple of thousandths off with a chisel that is a viable option. My challenges with that have been related to grain direction and knots. One thing about a plane is that there is a limit to how much material comes off in one stroke but you will be responsible for where that stroke takes the material.

In the end it will have more to do with you than the tool. If you can guide a tool at the correct orientation to the work either a shoulder plane or chisel should work.

My bottom of the list solution would be a router plane because the depth needs adjustment multiple times and while its purpose seems to be making a tenon face parallel to the reference face, that might not be what is needed to fit a hand chopped mortise.

Tuning tenon cheeks and shoulders

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

I am facing 36 or these joints on some tables. I have been adjusting as needed with a LN shoulder plane. I hate this tool. It is an ergonomic disaster. I have decided to overcome my frugality and get what is best for this task. LV shoulder plane, rabbit block plane, ??

Bill, I have long argued on these pages that a shoulder plane is best for rebates or similar. You are wanting to fine tune 36 tenon cheeks, and most here are suggesting a chisel, which I think is the wrong tool for your situation.

First and foremost, mark the shoulders and with a knife line, and use the same cutting gauge to mark the cheek dimensions on both boards.

A chisel remains my choice for tenon shoulders. Saw a smidgeon off the knifed shoulder lines, then insert a chisel in the line, push down. This will create a clean shoulder. I very, very rarely use a shoulder plane here. Mainly because they can cut away more than you want and from spots you do not need to trim.

A shoulder plane is very clumsy on tenon cheeks. High, poorly balanced, and difficult to use accurately. I am not a fan of any type of plane for cheeks. The one exception being a router plane, which I use if I have been cross-eyed and my sawing has been well off the mark. If this is the case, I might also use a chisel to get close. But the router plane will ensure all is square.

What I prefer to do - and this is my recommendation for 36 sets of tenon cheeks - firstly, is saw to the line. Keep as close as possible. 36 sets of cheeks are probably best done on a bandsaw. Then, if correction is necessary, mark the area with a pencil, and use a coarse rasp to remove the excess in that spot.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It's not how

Steve D, in CT

to remove the material, it's where.

Chisel or plane, you won't get good results without understanding where to apply the tool.

With respect to direction of cut on a chisel, I go across the grain and find that minimizes the chisel's desire to follow the whims of growth rings.

Re: I use a bull nose hand plane

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Dick, I do not know how you do this.

For me, a bullnose plane is my absolute worst plane to use (actually, I have failed to find a use for this plane anywhere, and it brings me out in hives - hence my urge to reply!).

The bullnose is a plane notable for its short/absent toe, which means that it has minimal registration on the work piece. The only way to plane a cheek is from the inside outwards, which leads to spelching. And then it is a tall and relatively narrow plane, which translates to poorer control. What am I missing?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Context is important

Steve D, in CT

A lot depends on the work being produced.

I took a class with Peter Follansbee and shoulder planes were not on the tool list nor would there have been a use for one in the frame being produced. All of the tenon fitting was via chisel or the saw cutting the shoulders. The front tenon cheek was cut at a very slight angle off the saw while the back cheek was recessed back by about a kerf's width. Why? To guarantee a clean fit where it's visible without the need for tedious fitting. The joints were draw bored.

Outside of woodworking, either in metalworking or financial planning it isn't so much about perfection but in ensuring that any errors are advantageous at best or benign at worst. When the tiniest of errors result in failure it means that the process isn't "robust." The 17th century oak chests that Follansbee produces are marvels in expediency and he is a master at conveying that.

Re: I use a bull nose hand plane

Steve D, in CT

"The only way to plane a cheek is from the inside outwards, which leads to spelching."

Doesn't that suggest that is the way to not plane a cheek?

Try the middle 2/3 to start, approaching your line. Then the 1/6 or so on each end toward center. As you get to the line move toward going inward from a corner to almost the other corner then the same move from the other side.

The spelchiness is a drawback but another option is to identify the side of the tenon where spelching won't show. I'm thinking the top of a rail just below an overhanging top. A small chamfer could be placed to avoid the spelch but wouldn't show and wouldn't spelch.

Another option would be a Martin slider if you know anyone with one of those.

Re: Chiseling question

Steve Voigt

From those that actually employ a chisel, rather than having read about it, where does the chisel begin and what direction does it travel?

I too use a wide chisel for this. I always pare across the grain. You don't care if the surface is smooth, but you don't want the chisel diving into the grain.

Assuming you marked your tenons with a gauge, set your chisel in what's left of the gauge line. Or, let's say your saw cut started out perfect and then drifted a little…then lay your chisel on the good part of the tenon and angle it into the fat part, turning the chisel from 45 to the edge to 90. Whatever is needed.

In case it's not clear, all this is done before reducing the tenon in width. At final fitting, you can pare a little more if the tenon is too tight--just pare away the burnish marks.

The late Phil Lowe wrote an article called "4 chisel tricks," which should be available online. He advocated sawing fat, then paring to the line by setting your chisel in the gauge lines. I did this for a few years, but found it's less work to saw to the line and pare away little bits.

How about a joinery float?

Re: Chiseling question

Warren in Lancaster, PA

Something is very wrong here. You say start with a "sharp chisel". They you say "Rarely is the edge sharp enough to target a tiny bit below the surface." A chisel should be able to do this work even if it has not been freshly sharpened.

Re: Chiseling question

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I don't think Phil Lowe did much joinery hand work. On his video he holds up a chisel and says, "They call this a mortise chisel". And he holds up a plane and says" They call this a jack plane."

You and I would say "we call this a jack plane" and "we call this a mortise chisel" because we actually use these tools.

There is a rail to leg joint on the back of a chair where the rail comes in at an angle. On old work, the tenon is straight and the mortise is slightly angled in the leg. But Lowe, both at Williamsburg and on his "Art of Woodworking" video, angles the tenon into a straight mortise, because it lends itself to machine technique.