I have to admit...

I follow now...

David Weaver

I may be able to make a blade like this but my ability to harden and temper a long run of steel is zero, so it would probably not work.

Are these blades curved in the transition area? I'm guessing not or they'd leave a curved cut at the bottom corner between tails. Jack's description makes it sound more like they go directly to lateral cut at the bottom of a tail without any significant curve. They're probably heated and pressed in a die.

I'm kind of pleased that even though this is sounding like there wouldn't be much reward for trying, it motivated me to put portaband blades in my frame saw yesterday and I can at least until I found out why that's not a great idea, cut metal in a much more relaxed and easy way than using a 12" hacksaw.

Re: I follow now...

John Aniano in central NJ

David,

The 90 degree transition is abrupt but the extent of the tapered transition is spread over the 4" or so center zone. And honestly, I sort of doubt the center is properly hardened/tempered. Although saw blade will lose temper during the bending process, the action of hot forging and finishing up with a sort of cold forging might be enough to work harden the center transition zone. Just a guess.

I always saw Frank K. demonstrate his 5-minute dovetail in pine, so if a few of the center teeth don't cut really well, their job is only to turn the corner and engage the better cutting teeth past the center.

Over and out,

John

I agree again...

David Weaver

...and was thinking about this earlier. My first float is unhardened after the first two inches. It doesn't work great, but it works about 80% as well as it would if it was entirely saw temper - maybe more like 90.

teeth that are unhardened in softwood or that have lost some temper will still work fine.

But I need a good picture to make an attempt at something like this. I know how to incorrectly partially reharden something (as in, underheat and get a partial harden), but haven't experimented with how this affects toughness (that wouldn't be hard to figure out). Plus, you can partially harden thin steel just by doing something like heating it and then blowing on it with a leaf blower.

All kinds of options.

David, somewhere in this thread

Wiley Horne

I think you have already spoken to this possibility, but let me ask again anyway....

Could you not isolate this 4” section between a vise on one end and something—maybe another vise—at the other end; 90 degree orientation at one end and 0 degree a t’other. Then get visegrips or other pliers in each hand, and twist the blade beyond its elasticity point, twisting about at about 1-1/4” from each anchored end, so that nearly the full 90 degree twist occurs in this 4” stretch?

Maybe use about a 1/4” to 5/16” blade, considerably thinner than the kerf so it has enough wiggle room to start the turn....

Wiley

More specifics for a "cranked" dovetail saw blade

John Aniano in central NJ

David,

I looked at some of my books and found in Roy Underhill's "The Woodwright's Apprentice" (1996), page 36 at the top, is a closeup photo of the blade he uses. Page 34 shows the entire blade in his frame saw. Roy refers to it as a "cranked" blade and states:

"The blade is a length of fine-toothed bandsaw blade, softened with heat and then hammered to a right angle in a sharp jawed vise. The unbent part of the blade cuts the vertical line. To turn the corner, gradually start jab-sawing with the bent section until the second, horizontal half of the blade is fully engaged."

I'll try to take a photo of the B&W image in the book. By my eyes, the cranked blade he is using was only maybe 1/4" wide, judging from the approximately 1" stock Roy is using to make the Jefferson's Book Box project.

John

Re: Photo of a "cranked" dovetail saw blade 

John Aniano in central NJ

From Roy Underhill's book "The Woodwright's Apprentice", page 36, 1997.

Re: Photo of a "cranked" dovetail saw blade

David Weaver

Thanks, John - that's how I figured it would be made but wanted to confirm before going to the trouble to experiment heating and hammering. I'll need to make a sharp corner fixture as my anvil corners aren't quite up to that (but it shouldn't be hard as it's not going to be anything that gets heavy use).

Re: David, somewhere in this thread

David Weaver

that part, I did - the blade - the saw is too long and the blade doesn't have enough conviction to turn, so it needs that 90 degree kink in it that John pictured. In order to make that kink, it needs heat.

I heated a section of a cobalt bimetal blade (I have some defective ones that don't have very hard teeth - not sure why) , but it cools so fast that I cant figure out how to get it hammered. I almost need to get a weed torch out and hammer it under heat, which will be tricky. The other option is to try to heat it enough in the vise and bend it and kink it in the vise, and see if I can get enough heat on it so that it doesn't snap.

When they're cold, you can break them almost just by hand pinching them together. One of the starrett cobalt blades, I was able to do just that with nothing else. The 9 degree kink will force the blade to bear against the side of the vertical cut and force the teeth straight through the wood on the bottom.

I think I can figure this out - we'll see after I do if a blade will tolerate being tensioned, though.

Re: More specifics for a "cranked" dovetail saw bl

Joe Rogers, North Eastern West Virginia

Roy brought that saw and blade to a workshop set up by my local Woodcraft store. He bemoaned the fact that the blade was fragile and IIRC started to crack at the bend. And you are correct in that the blade was 1/4” according to my not perfect eyes.

Joe

Re: More specifics for a "cranked" dovetail saw bl

David Weaver

in order for those blades to avoid cracking, they'd need to be spring and slightly soft.

And the whole blade would have to be formed and then hardened and tempered separately later.

I heated a bandsaw blade the other night and folded it, but the teeth didn't survive. I also folded it the wrong way it'll cut left to right if I get teeth filed in it.

I'll recut some teeth in what's left and still give it a try, but not until later in the week as I have limited time in the shop and am making things.

The way to make one of tehse, I believe, is to have a good quality vise and a mapp torch and put the blade in the vise on an incline and mapp torch it and hammer the hot part as you go and then if partial hardening is important (heat the whole thing and blow on it with some space past the ends of the bends.

We shall see. I don't have any other spring steel stock or blades other than bandsaw blades (but they'll work if anything else does, just more blowout on the back of the cut due to skip tooth. It's just a novelty at this point, but it's fun.

The luxury of making things like this instead of buying them is the segment of bandsaw blade that I'm using is probably about $5. If I ruin it, no big deal. If I make one and it works (i'll relax the hook on the teeth to lower the blowout), then if it starts to crack, I won't lament it - I'll just make another one.

I use the same bandsaw blade to saw guitar body blanks as a copying saw or fine tooth is just too slow for that kind of work, but a relaxed skip tooth bandsaw blade will make short work of cutting out a guitar body. Almost as fast as setting up a bandsaw and using it, but without the need to have the bandsaw or floor space.

Plus, the making pointed me toward using a bimetal blade, and that's been just dandy - I wouldn't have connected the two things (unused portaband blades and frustration with the portaband blowing through blades quickly - and then thinking - ghee while I have this stuff out, I'll break one of these and put it in the frame saw) without tinkering. To most, this is a waste of time. But this setup will rip hundreds of feet of metal in the next several years for me unless I step in front of a bus, and suddenly, it's comfortable and relatively quick - and immensely satisfying.

Re: what plate thickness are you thinking..

Jack Dover

I grabbed calipers and measured my "good" saws' plates, they're about 0.0185 on average, I guess 0.02 with minimal set would also work. Wondering whether holes in a plate would hold, there's quite a bit of tension.

Re: 90 degree bend blade...

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I ran across the 1979 Fine Woodworking magazine which mentioned the bent blade. Editor Rick Mastelli had visited Frank Klausz, who pulled out his party tricks. There were two things that I had forgotten about.

First, the saw had no teeth on the forward (vertical) portion of the blade. Klausz made the vertical cuts with a regular bow saw, then used the bent saw for the horizontal cuts. So the saw rode on the blank part of the blade and did not go any deeper past the gauge line.

The second thing was that Klausz said that the saw was used for packing crates and painted cabinets. He made a filler from sawdust and glue and filled the gaps before painting. My feeling is that if you are well skilled with a chisel, filling gaps is not a time saver.

Question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

While I respect Frank's skills and accomplishments his techniques never found a home in my shop. I have not kept up with this discussion. Is this saw and technique a large version of a fret saw with the blade bent 90 degrees for sawing to near (or at I suppose) the baseline for dovetail waste removal?

For a technique that seems to have no application in making furniture it sure gets a lot of discussion. Yet another example of our crafts modern infatuation with dovetails.

Re: Question on 90 degree cranked blade...

John Aniano in central NJ

Hi Bill and Warren,

I've watched Frank Klaus do the 5-minute dovetail maybe 4 times in person, once when he presented at our local NJ club, the CJWA, maybe 12-15 years ago. I'd forgotten that the saw blade had no teeth for the vertical cut. He might have had several of these blades; I once watched him purchase a cranked blade at a CRAFTS tailgating event in Flemington, NJ. If I had only gotten there first! But he knew what it was and how to use it, so Frank got the blade!

The version of the cranked blade shown by Roy Underhill had teeth both in front and behind the 90 degree cranked center portion. Same idea, slightly different execution method.

Yes, the final dovetail results can be sloppy and I also remember Frank talking about filler for the gaps for the 5-minute joint. Also mentioned that the joint would be hidden with moldings in kitchen cabinet construction. Quick, dirty, strong. Maybe we humans simply have a fascination with clever tools and techniques. "Out of the ordinary" is better.

John

something for nothing...

David Weaver

..the whole something for nothing idea in woodworking always has and always will impress a lot more than someone showing crisp work.

I guarantee frank's videos of stuff that he's doing as a showman generate a lot more interest than the wonderful video of george and a couple of apprentices making a harpsichord and violins ever will.

As for the blades - I did bend a bandsaw blade, but the bit that was folded, the teeth got mangled some. I'd rather make a blade like this from a blank, fold it and then cut teeth, but I also completely lost interest in the idea when the whole experiment sparked solving another problem (getting portaband blades to last without the portabandsaw ripping the teeth off of them in high carbon steel) and wouldn't give up my frame saw now that I've found how well it works with bimetal (and resharpenable once the teeth aren't constantly being torn off of them) blades.

Anyway - one thing that became apparent is that as long as the frame saw is large enough and the blade isn't too super thin, you can locate the transition so that you can saw vertically with the front and horizontally with the back. There's no need for it to not have teeth on the front part - it's a matter of touch ending the last vertical cut stroke at the point you want to transition into cutting horizontally.

Re: 90 degree bend blade...

Charlie

Here is Klausz cutting them with a back saw.

He seems to be doing well in his retirement. I think that I've lived in smaller houses than his shop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrAAglKLPh8

Woodworking has been good to Frank

Charlie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrtiqkyVaBY

that's a hell of a nice shop...

David Weaver

..he reminds me of my relatives, but hungarians and rural german/swiss probably isn't that much different.

frank could've built me under the table when he was 13, I'm sure. But it looks like he learned that doing just that wasn't as profitable as finding students and dealing in charisma (he's got plenty of that, too).

of all of the early videos I got, his and a couple of guys from England or Australia struck me as guys who didn't need a list of steps to perform an operation.

Re: that's a hell of a nice shop...

Charlie

I think he sold his business to guys that worked for him.

Still open it appears:

http://www.frankscabinetshop.com/

Re: that's a hell of a nice shop...

Charlie

Frank Klausz and Frank Pollaro are good friends. I think Pollaro may have worked for Klausz at some point. Anyway, Klausz built workbenches for Pollaro's operation. As you can see Pollaro is no slouch:

https://pollaro.com/

Re: that's a hell of a nice shop...

Charlie

On the Pollaro website, click on the tab "craftsmanship" then on the picture that says "furnituremaking" and you'll be taken to the Pollaro bench room.

Re: that's a hell of a nice shop...

Charlie

You might also be interested in some of the piano cases that Pollaro does:

https://pollaro.com/our-art/art-case-pianos/

Re: that's a hell of a nice shop...

David Weaver

I actually headed to that link first as the LA style outdoor stuff wasn't what I was looking for on the front page. The benches are nice, and it looks like they're pretty strict! Everyone uses a hungarian bench - if frank was the start of that, he reminds me of my relatives even more! "do it this way. When you pay me instead of me paying you, we'll do it your way".

The piano cases are spectacular. The talk about the ebony log reminds me of people building guitars complaining that they can't find the finest of woods for pennies.

"who would pay $100 a board foot for 12/4 wood?"

Someone with a buyer who will pay 20 times as much for the commission. That stuff isn't hobbyist wood.

Re: that's a hell of a nice shop...

Charlie

Rarefied air for sure.