Washita stone

Refining..

David Weaver

I'm not sure why you think Norton's honing oil is more refined than food safe light oil intended for meat slicing.

Or at least all of those oils. I've used both, Warren- norton oil came with my IM-313. It's not better than the gallon of food supply oil. I'm sure it's better for honing than some others.

Re: Norton's mineral oil..

David Weaver

These assertions are getting a little bit tiring, Warren, about what people perceive or don't perceive or know or don't.

I took the trouble of finding the MSDS again for the Norton oil. It is 100% white mineral oil meeting CFR 172.878, with a statement that it may have 10PPM stabilizers.

https://www.msdsdigital.com/norton-sharpening-stone-oil-msds

This is a picture of the oil that I use.

https://i.imgur.com/NEXXU4t.jpg?1

I didn't search out an oil that matched norton's spec, it's just what I got as a matter of finding a light mineral oil that wouldn't be overly thick and that would be food safe.

As I mentioned, the feel is ever so slightly different. The kitchen oil has a slightly "wetter" feeling. I doubt that the difference is intentional. This container is probably more than 10 years old - the oil is still clean. It probably also has stabilizers in it. There are other mineral oils for honing that are not without color and that stink - this stuff isn't it. I try not to perceive differences that aren't there.

Re: Oil chemistry

Warren in Lancaster, PA

The difference in oils is how tight a range of molecular weights they have. With fractional distillation we can eliminate the lighter and heavier portions in the oil. An oil that is not highly refined will have a range of heavy molecules and light molecules. The viscosity could be the same, but in time the light stuff evaporates leaving the sludge behind.

For things like clocks and watches and musical instruments, we don't want an oil that will thicken over time as stuff evaporates. That is why clock oil is much more expensive than mineral oil you buy in the hardware store.

"Super refined" clock oil can go for $10 an ounce.

Re: Oil chemistry

David Weaver

we're way off in the weeds of we're talking about needing clock oil to hone.

First, I've never seen any mineral oil with clarity dry on anything or create any sludge. Ever.

Second, in the event that such a thing ever did happen, something as easy as simple green (if this was found 50 years from now) would remove the oil.

Something like WD40 does intentionally leave behind a film, but I've never seen any practical consequence of it. It's likely worn off by use of the stone.

Re: Oil chemistry

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The difference in oils is how tight a range of molecular weights they have.

What I described above are the compositional differences oil can have and the refining that can be done to purify them.

You raise anther valid point, the boiling point range of the oil and in turn its viscosity and viscosity vs temperature response can differ. This difference will be inherent to the as manufactured product and not time dependent during service life.

With fractional distillation we can eliminate the lighter and heavier portions in the oil. An oil that is not highly refined will have a range of heavy molecules and light molecules. The viscosity could be the same true up to this point.

but in time the light stuff evaporates leaving the sludge behind.

not so. What happens over time is any olefinic component reacts with oxygen/light to polymerize to create the sludge you speak of. Given the atmospheric pressure boiling point of a C30 hydrocarbon no significant amount of oil is going to evaporate over any reasonable amount of time. You don' t have to add oil to your car because it evaporates at the high temperatures of operation.

For things like clocks and watches . It may be that clock oil has a more narrow boiling point range than household mineral oil. But of greater importance will be removal of the unsaturated components that will polymerize and become gummy.

The mineral oils David speaks of are not going to thicken on a stone by evaporation or polymerization.

Re: Oil chemistry

Rafael Herrera

Thank you for the explanation. In a thread in another forum it was also brought up that the expensive honing liquid was "purer" or "more refined", that that justified the price difference of $15 for a gallon of food grade mineral oil vs $500 for a gallon of honing liquid. To me that just sounds like when they market something as "natural", it means nothing concrete and just appeals to your own prejudices.

There are some very refined petroleum products, for very specialized uses that are very expensive, that I found described in industrial sites, some super filtered mineral oil. It wasn't marketed to sharpen knives.

If some people want to be convinced by the claims of "pure" oil and want to pay those prices, that's their choice.

I looked up the SDS for the Trend liquid, one of its two components appears to be a form of odorless Kerosene (CAS 64742-48-9), this site describes it, it costs around $160 per gallon in bulk.

https://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB6505512.htm

The other component is CAS 64742-47-8, also looks like another form of Kerosene, similarly priced.

Maybe Trend is buying at those prices, repackaging and adding their markup.

I'll stick with mineral oil.

Re: Oil chemistry

David Weaver

I've got a few ceramic faced pocket watches from who knows when. I could see concern of build up (though such a thing would be removed by servicing).

I checked my IM 313, which is probably a decade old or more. It's got a pint of norton oil in it and has had several times that of the kitchen oil I linked a picture to. There is no build up of anything in or on the holder or the stones, but there's quite a layer of metal swarf on the bottom of the plastic holder.

So, I went one further to the WD 40 -lubricated stones that I use (all of the black and trans stones, which at this point only number a few - I kept only the couple that I like having tried a bunch). I think WD-40 dries as the surface of the stone often looks like it's got a tiny thin dry cake of WD40 and metal swarf on it. But someone challenged me on that once as I'd assumed it evaporates fairly quickly, and I sprayed a drop on a piece of metal and when it hadn't changed at all, I gave up on waiting to see how long it would take for a drop to evaporate.

All remnants of WD40 disappear as soon as another drop is introduced to the stone, much like someone would add more mineral oil to flush the surface of a coarser stone.

I'd imagine the kitchen oil that I have would do fine for oiling watches, and once a source is confirmed by a company offering oil for watches, the price would have to be set high enough per ounce to make it worth selling to someone who would use very little of it.

I can see the clock concern being a whole lot more applicable in the early days when there was less regulation, just as we take pencils for granted now as having lead, but many of the early pencils sold had a tiny amount of viable lead at the very tip and then a whole bunch of substandard colorant in the pencil after that - long enough for the buyer to not be able to find the seller.

I've also got a quart (less than that now) of beeswax mixed 50/50 with that same oil in the jug - there is no lid on the container and there's been no observable change to the contents.

Re: Washita stone

Chuck Bjorgen

Outstanding info, Bryan. For what it’s worth, maybe three years ago you posted instructions for calculating specific gravity of oil stones. I copied that text and have kept it in my Notes App on my iPad. I have just done the same with your info on Washitas. At the time I was looking for information about a stone purchase that had a rather interesting color and labeled as Turquoise. Turned out it had the sg of a hard black or translucent of about 2.50 and is a favorite finishing stone. Thank you very much for that and thanks also to all others who have helped answer my questions.

Danger in all conversations..

David Weaver

..when I brought this up originally - it's too long ago for me to remember what I bought machine prep oil for first - whether it was to mix with beeswax, to use in place of the overpriced "camelia oil" (which also clouds in a cool shop) to keep tools oiled or if it was to use with stones, several folks suggested that mineral oil was a threat to health because of studies showing some effect on something (endocrine disruption? I don't know).

It's possible to find something wrong with all kinds of things that work reasonably well.

Is it possible that food grade oil could have some long term negative effect? Probably minor if anything. Minimal compared to 99 other things I'd do in a given day.

It's a solution to me - it's inexpensive enough that I can use it to mix with beeswax, use to prevent rust or use to hone (or fill an oil bath). It's done well for all of those and I can't see a practical problem with it. What really is the incentive to find them where they don't exist (just like advising people not to ever have skin contact with mineral oil?). You can get to the point where you believe only one thing for every task is usable and get completely out of touch with reality. At that point, my relatives would refer to it as people who only find problems rather than seeing solutions (this isn't a compliment when they say it).

For my money...

John in NM

Its all snake oil. Sure, the properties of different oils are different. Water is different, mineral spirits is different.

It all carries the swarf away, it all works. I've used it all. I'm sure people can come up with all sorts of reasons that I'm doing stuff wrong - bottom line, the blade is sharp, the stone is flat, I'll use WD-40 if its all I have. It all works.

The high price of that crap in the little bottle is the cost of the bottle and of moving little bottles around as opposed to big jugs, with a healthy commission on the mineral oil for the company putting their name on the little bottle. Same as the Hoppe's brand gun oil that is just 3 in 1 in a smaller and more expensive bottle.

Different products may well be more refined - but that doesn't mean that it matters a whit for the purpose of honing.

refining could matter

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If by refining we mean removing the constituents that could turn to gum with age it could be beneficial to not embed them into a stone where they will stay forever and maybe turn to gum and maybe that would be bad. There are a lot of maybe's in this sentence. I know the chemistry but nothing of the effect in the application. I use WD 40 and diamonds on cast iron. I don' t have a horse in this race other than to clarify the chemistry of what can happen.

That said, it would wait for modern times that animal, plant or petroleum oil could be processed to remove the possibility of these oils reacting with air and light to make goo. Before about 1950 +/-, everyone was using some sort of oil that would make goo if left in the stone forever. Maybe new application of oil washes the beginnings of goo away. Or maybe it doesn't matter.

If any of this concern was important you should be using synthetic oil. It can be made in high purity, it is ash-free , and less variable viscosity at different temperatures. It is cheap to make and could be hyped in marketing.

your price is misleading

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The price you quote is from a chem supplier of small quantities to labs. This stuff is simply hydrogenated petroleum fraction, as described above, to remove the stinky, olefin fraction. This stuff is used to formulate pharmaceuticals in its USP form or as a solvent that doesn't stink. My sheep worm medicine was formulated in it. In true bulk, ie tank cars, it will be slightly higher price than diesel fuel if not USP approved. If you don' t mind the smell kerosene is equivalent. Deodorized lamp oil may be the same stuff.

Re: refining could matter

Warren in Lancaster, PA

Last night I thought of a dozen different oils I have used over the last 60 years. Historic oils for sharpening are olive oil and neatsfoot oil , which I have used, and sperm oil, which I have not.

Honing oils are the nicest, having a nice balance for cutting and suspending steel. However, one great advantage of cheaper oils is that they encourage you to be liberal with the oil, which is a very good thing.

Honing oils are nice for the guy who puts a fine edge on his pocket knife or kitchen knife and then puts his stones away for a few months. Not so important for the guy who rarely goes a day without sharpening.

Thin oils like WD-40 or Kerosene do a poor job of suspending steel particles. They are also irritants, so they are not good for someone who is constantly sharpening tools.

Re: refining could matter

David Weaver

olive oils oxidize, I'm not sure about neatsfoot as the quart that I have has a thickness and smell that I'd prefer stay on shoes.

This discussion could've been had in reverse order regarding honing oils and other far more reasonable supplies for someone who may use a single oil for all kinds of things (oil baths, mixing with wax to make a non-drying 50/50 combination, etc).

Discussions about how to use the oils in general (let alone which) are never the same. Some instructions (dan's for example) will suggest applying a drop of oil and then having the stone nearly dry to use, applying again only to flush away particles. Others will suggest a bath or very heavy oil use (which is very useful for coarse work, but not so much fine as the backs of chisels and plane irons will have difficulty getting any abrasion from a fine stone).

I seriously doubt any of the odorless light mineral oils sold kitchen safe are much (and not functionally any at all) different than honing oils sold in a can, except that some canned honing oils still have color and stink that the oil that I pictured doesn't. It would be intolerable for food use in a commercial kitchen as it would be present in the food.

As to the floating away of particles, it has a lot to do with how much oil or fluid medium someone uses. I've used WD40 on fine stones (washita and black and translucent) for years for tools because too much oil will make contact with the abrasive on a large flat area difficult. I also have no preference to use the stones nearly dry as some prefer. WD 40 has never had any issue floating particles away from either of those, but in my experience, an oil bath is better for synthetic stones. On porous stones like a washita, the pores remain pores with WD 40, they do not clog. I still think it dries, but after the drop test, it would be contaminated with ambient dust in my shop before it was dry.

But none have ever had a functional problem and should a stone stand for a while with swarf on it (using WD40) and look remotely dry, even a drop or two of WD40 will completely clean the stone just in the process of honing (nothing extra is needed literally other than just use of the stone).

Going even beyond this - if anyone on here ever used any of these modern refined oils and found any kind of pore clogging, a bath in simple green solution eliminates so much of the oil on the stones that water doesn't bead on them (and they can be used with water). I don't have any desire to do that, but some folks have a phobia of oil and I've seen the before and after. Point being, even if someone really liked olive oil and I thought it was a bad idea because it's less stable than mineral oil, we already know a cheap way to get the oil off of a stone after years, and one that doesn't involve abrading the stone.

I've also examined edges under the microscope for WD 40 and oil on the fine stones (tools and razors) and there is no visible or perceptible difference as long as the same stone is used to make comparable pictures. Some people like mineral spirits or kerosene for fine stones - I've never used either, but it wouldn't be hard to experiment and find that the results are probably the same (For fine stones).

On the coarse side, i doubted the value of an oil bath until I had a large one. I suspect the flushing needed on something like a medium crystolon is more the stone particles than it is the steel. But knife and tool grinding in an oilbath is far less trouble and mess than keeping enough honing oil on a bare stone on a bench.

Re: refining could matter

Warren in Lancaster, PA

It was not so long ago that you were disparaging Arkansas stone use:

I wonder what the hard core bronze users thought when the iron age came along.

Now you can't imagine that anyone might have any experience or insight that you lack. Something weird going on.

I'm sure

David Weaver

there are people who perceive things that I don't perceive. Sometimes I perceive things and can state a difference and show it, definitively, but when I step back for a second, I realize that the difference that I'm able to show or perceive isn't material.

Much like any difference between norton's oil and the "super sharp" kitchen oil that is 1/8th the cost.

I would not be surprised if an advanced analysis showed the kitchen oil to actually be better or more stable - it's just marketed by the gallon in a plastic jug instead of retail by 4 ounces to a quart.

I suspect in this case, you've compared a lot of things to something you haven't used, and you've asserted something, but it's immaterial and lack of comparative use is why. Perhaps it's reinforced by reading a text that is materially out of date in regard to mineral oil.

Let's stick to the topic since your concern with the oil that's not labeled "honing oil" may evaporate. It doesn't. Not in any material sense. Perhaps there is an odor concern. With the commercial kitchen type, there is none.

There are certainly things you perceive or believe that are not correct. I see that you have misstated some of my testing elsewhere to try to assert the idea that V11 does not test superior to a stanley iron. That's incorrect. You may believe that there is something imparted to an edge by a natural stone that is superior to submicron abrasives. There isn't. It only takes objective use to figure these things out. I'm not interested in immaterial vague statements or intentionally inaccurate comparisons.

detective work with bill's comment

David Weaver

The two components are referred to at retail as heavy naptha and odorless mineral spirits.

Not surprisingly, the odorless mineral spirits sold at home depot for $14 a gallon are the same spec as the mineral spirits in the trend liquid.

I checked the VM&P naptha at home depot (by SDS online), klean strip brand, and it's a light naptha vs. the spec provided the trend mix.

what I gather reading the spec of the two, it just has a higher boiling point (the heavy) in the trend, and I would suspect it's used so that the mixture doesn't evaporate as quickly.

If they pay more than $10 a gallon for either component, I'd be surprised.

They don't, however, provide information about how they turn it blue, so that would leave some experimenting

Part of the reason that I left a comment stinker in their video (which apparently triggered them to make the video private - they could've just erased my comment) and posted their SDS information is because in comments in that video and elsewhere, there were individuals who mentioned that they were accosted by trend reps at woodworking shows about how they needed to buy the honing liquid from now on because WD 40, water and kerosene are inferior (but one said when he asked why, the sales rep had no explanation).

I will gladly pay companies who add value, but when the value is only on their sales side - I'm not a fan. Or more specifically, there are lots of things you can do to make money. You can innovate, be efficient, improve quality. But when it appears that the money is spent almost entirely in getting something very cheap and then marketing it aggressively without being transparent about what it is, I'm not into that. There are stealth endorsing videos all over the place without the youtube gurus being honest and stating that they're being paid to repeat the sales pitch.

This cuts across industries

Jim Matthews

"I will gladly pay companies who add value, but when the value is only on their sales side - I'm not a fan. Or more specifically, there are lots of things you can do to make money. You can innovate, be efficient, improve quality. But when it appears that the money is spent almost entirely in getting something very cheap and then marketing it aggressively without being transparent about what it is, I'm not into that."

This is the tightest explanation of why Americans hate car dealerships.

In the era of online research, assuming asymmetric knowledge is insulting.

were you thinking of "paint protection"

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Last car I bought I was getting a quote by phone when in the end a few hundred dollars was added for a "paint protection" added by the dealer. I said, well, that is a deal breaker. "Oh wait, my manager is walking by." pause He said we can deduct that fee and not do the "paint protection". Right Bought identical car 300 miles away in Cincinnati that was $2000 less (it was manual and they were anxious to be rid of it)

Or the unusually equipped Explorer 2WD manual I ordered to be made and later delivered that got an unexpected $500 fee added at delivery. "the fee is state mandated" Right. I had not made a deposit and I left them stuck with it. A nice lady at a Ford dealer in a nearby town found me one 300 miles away in Atlanta and fetched it, no charge.

>southern vehicle

David Weaver

>>Or the unusually equipped Explorer 2WD manual I ordered to be made and later delivered that got an unexpected $500 fee added at delivery.<<

Bet that took a while to sell. We call vehicles like that "southern trucks" up here, especially with a stick.

I had a relative (now deceased) who liked to buy 2wd standard cab trucks in PA. He had a lot of quirks - all of my relatives have them. In his view, a 2wd truck with rear wheel drive "rides like a car".

When he died, his widow was left with a nearly new truck to sell. I'm not sure if she's managed to sell it yet.

(not a huge fan of four wheel drive cars, either - but front drive here in the winter is fine - it's uncommon to not have the suburban township roads cleaned several times overnight if it's snowing).

Jim managed to hit my distaste for car dealers. I tell them what amount I'm willing to pay (trade included) before I come in by phone, I stick to it, and I show them two sets of keys when I arrive. I also tell them that if someone isn't test driving my trade within 15 minutes, I will leave, and I only go to a dealership location one time. The last two times I've gotten a car, I called when I was on the way, someone met me at the door and took keys for the trade in as I was walking in and I was done in less than half an hour.

The mrs. doesn't like this - it always causes a scuffle (her dad will spend several months going back and forth to buy a car), but the scuffle is far less annoying than dealing with multiple car dealers.

It's the arrogance I resent

Jim Matthews

I'm a repair tech by trade, rarely called until the wheels have fallen off and the dumpster is on fire (where someone was sent to fetch the manual).

I had a brief foray into sales where the lead weasel always wanted a sugar coating on my assessment of a product. I have a finely tuned antenna just for swindle speak.

Selling cheap oil in an expensive bottle chaps my hide.

Too many barriers already exist before a novice; getting rooked shouldn't be among them.

******

I, for one, will be glad when Tesla kills the stealership model.

Not many have earned such a low estimation of their character.

Chuck Bjorgen wrote:

We have requirement of Washita stone , please suggest where we buy