The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

TomD

"Steve Knight's O1 does (it's pretty much even with A2, but leaves a better surface), but I have had success making similar quality irons with Starrett and Precision Presto O1 and leaving them around 62 hardness."

O1 is dead cheap, and it's main quality as a gauge block steel is that it holds it's dimension well. I have cracked a few pieces doing heat treats in stupid conditions like out of doors, mid winter, but I don't normally have any problems making pro quality tools out if it. So I am a little at a loss as to why A2 would be so much better. The HT stability is a factor, but I don't see how large given that O1 is a favourite among beginners all over the place.

I think LN is probably right about nobody wearing out their tools, I know I only have a few that look like someone serious owned them. The reality in the modern world for the most part is that heavy users change their gear so often they never wear it out by hand. Someone with a heavy hand at the grinder could, though.

I

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

TomD

"(i'll freely admit that if someone else went into as much nuttiness as I have about this, I'd make fun of them and tell them to make something. )"

I try not to rely on that argument, but at times it is irresistible.

I have been buying high quality tools since the 70s. My problem is that it really doesn't mater if someone solves the steel problem or not, because: 1) I will have ample reasons not to believe them; 2) More to the point I am stuck with a huge range of different "bests", acquired over 40 years, and I am not going to replace them with any one thing, any time soon. When I bought my Record planes around 1980, I added blue steel blades to all of them. They have given good service, and I still mostly use my Record jointer to this day. But I would never replace that set-up today, there are better options out there.

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I have worn out plane irons from new all the way to the cap iron hole. I never use a grinder on a plane iron; I use the tools. I have had to put new longer handles on chisels that have lost two inches in length, likewise never having seen a grinder. I have worn out bench stones also.

I realize that a lot of guys just buy tools for kicks. When Lee Valley was designing new chisels eight years ago or so, they could not imagine using a chisel to the point of needing a longer handle. They also thought it was important for the chisel to balance right at the ferrule, not thinking the balance point would move as the chisel was used.

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

David Weaver

Japanese users and warren are the only ones I can think of who have actually consumed irons. I never will, even though two of the planes in my cycle are steady now (the try plane and the jack). I won't even work in the volume needed to consume an iron.

You're dead right about the knife market - it's really strange. really strange. A lot of the steels used are really hard to sharpen, but not good at acute angles - a double whammy, but they get a huge following. When the knife makers start making razors, they're usually making junk. I don't think they know they're making junk, either.

Cliff stamp is the only person I can think of who started testing knives slicing things instead of abusing them. He found that the plain cheap knives tend to last longer when someone is actually slicing things. The fascination with a multi-purpose knife with a spine near 1/4" is something I just don't get, and the gadgetry trying to sharpen knives with contraptions to get strange geometry is just weird.

The razor community is like that a little bit (some people shave for years before learning to hone their razors). I understand that a century ago, a barber would hone your razor for you for a few bucks, but there are "professionals" who do it for $15-$30 *plus shipping*. It's really odd, but the market is there and people seem to be almost endless coming along as newbies and looking for people to throw money at.

LN and A2

David Weaver

I think LN uses whatever their heat treater will do. AS I recall, they stopped using O1 as an option because either their heat treater stopped doing O1, or they were using a second one who quit.

You're right, it's not expensive. The best of the steel around (presto, starrett, etc) is only a little bit more, and it's *really* good, even out of a can forge and quenched in a paint can.

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

david weaver

The combination of record planes and the blue steel blades is pretty good.

I only have two metal jointers. One is a sorby and one is a record. both are nice planes.

I feel lucky to have started woodworking after the internet was in place, it's never been hard to get tools or information.

Galoot Tools blades

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Chris Scholz, who posts here, used to market a handmade Chinese laminated blade under the name of Galoot Tools made specifically for Bailey planes. No longer available, sadly. This is a great blade. It lives in a #604.

Chris also brought in (single iron) Chinese parallel laminated irons that Steve Knight would offer as a premium blade choice. I have one from Steve, and use it in my HNT Gordon planes. The technology exists.

Hopefully Chris sees this and responds.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Sgian Dubh

"Japanese users and warren are the only ones I can think of who have actually consumed irons.

David, you can add me to that list. I have one smoothing plane that I am now on my third iron. Admittedly, when I purchased it second hand in the early to mid 1970s (probably - might have been earlier) the iron was perhaps half to 2/3 worn out. It was replaced in the early '80s, and again sometime around 2003 or 2004. There's plenty of metal of this iron left, but that's likely because in 2003 my work focus moved over primarily to teaching, thus I spent, and still spend, considerably less time bashing bits of wood about at the workbench.

As to the steel debate, I'm sorry, but I can't think I have anything useful to contribute. I just sharpen whatever tool steel comes in front of me and use it until it needs sharpening again; I never have taken much notice of what type of steel it may be, but then I'm basically a straightforward utilitarian sharp'n'go type myself, ha, ha. Slainte.

Re: Galoot Tools blades

David Weaver

I had one of those for a knight plane. They may have been variable, as mine was definitely very hard, but a little crumbly. If i'd have kept it, i'd have probably removed it a little just to see if it was a problem of over hardness.

I have to be honest, in not sure that I ever tempered the shooting plane iron that I made, and it works fine. It's too hard to maintain on the washita, though. I would guess it's hardness at 64 or so given my experience with various natural stones (which do a good job of infusing hardness if you have enough different types. )

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

david weaver

Make that three, then! Thanks for chiming in.

I'd love to be able to duplicate your feat, but:

1) I'll never be able to recreate the volume of work you've done

2) even if I could, I'd tinker in the evening and keep making more irons/knives/tools, and none would ever get worn out.

Re: Galoot Tools blades

Chris Scholz

This was a fun project!

I payed a traditional sword maker in PR China to manufacture (in then litteral sense of the word) plane blades for me.

He did an outstanding job. Building pane blades for modern metal plants using traditional methods is extremely challenging. In addition, modern manufacturing technologies makes customer expect a level of consistency that you simply cannot achieve with traditional methods.

We did look into laminating A2-type steel to low carbon steel. In principle this is possible. However A2 does not ‘stick’ to low carbon steel with manual hammering and elbow grease. To make this work would require similar equipment that many of the Japanese ‘traditional’ outfits use.

I fondly remember Steve Knight’s workshop in Portland, wonder how he is doing these days.

Maybe something to pick up in retirement, still a long way to go.

Re: Galoot Tools blades

Chris Scholz

Yes, we did make them a bit on the hard side. Japanese blades are advertised on the hard side, this is what the market is used to ask for.

Re: Galoot Tools blades

David Weaver

I kind of wish I'd have kept the iron to see if I could solve it. I talked to Steve for a while on the phone once back then and he was also offering irons from a Japanese maker. He had trouble getting the maker to make the irons long and flat, and the maker, probably not familiar with western planes didn't believe there was a need to make them as requested. The performance of the other irons that Steve offered was a pretty high bat to exceed given how good his o1 irons were. They were a match for a2 in wear and without the chipping. Technically dominant in game theory terms.

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Charlie

Yep!

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Charlie

I don't know Brother Warren. There's a lot of talk about portfolios going 'round. Do you have one? If you can't post a link, should we just assume it's all a bunch of hooey, or do you just love Merlot as much as I do? :-) David can fill you in. I made a post years ago about enjoying wine and he's followed me around accusing me of being an alcoholic on at least three different woodworking forums. Mods don't seem to care. I'm cool with it. Maybe if I bragged about enjoying Meth rather than Merlot they'd draw the line there. Who knows. WoodCentral unfortunately seems to be dying on the vine (a wine reference David!), and Ellis apparently doesn't care.

The videos (Doucette and Wolfe -- a husband and wife team by the way) speak for themselves. What could I possibly add? They appear to be making and selling a decent amount of furniture. I don't think their intention was, or is, to make fakes. It's finished clean, with no ersatz distressing, etc. No intent to deceive. Can't fault that. At least I can't. Dude planes wood and the surfaces look fine to me. I guess he should have been in period dress or something. Who the fu*k knows what would make y'all happy.

Be well,

Charles

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Charlie

Just so you know David, so that we can avoid awkward references to her in the future, my wife passed away this past December 22nd, at the age of 52, after a courageous fight with ovarian cancer.

I am indeed making a living any way I can at this point -- woodworking, carpentry, accounting, piano, cooking. I went to culinary school in Paris decades ago and made several trays of hors d'oeuvres for a friend's daughter's wedding a few weekends ago and was thrilled to make a little scratch doing that.

Life happens. Enjoy your youth.

Signing off.

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

David Weaver

I thought their furniture is quite nice. Now you're suggesting someone said it's fake?

I could be mistaking them for someone else who was using a router on period furniture, and thought they look like their faffing on smoothing, but so what? It's great looking furniture, regardless of how they make it.

What would be wonderful is if you showed up to threads to answer peoples' questions objectively and with good intentions, used your own experience and work as an example. Years ago, you said on knots that you get on the internet to troll, not to be helpful, and that there's plenty of other people to offer assistance. When we see someone who says they have no good intentions, and then they prove it over and over, it's kind of hard to forget.

You don't have to be intentionally helpful for my benefit, you could do it for yours.

I'd like to see warren's portfolio, too, but I'll take his advice in the interim. He offers it quite often - it's pretty good (whether it's line and berry design issues or smoothing planes).

All of the forums are dying. The makers are gone from them, at least nominally. Everything has its cycles.

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

I thought their furniture is quite nice. Now you're suggesting someone said it's fake?

Actually David, to be fair, Warren was the one to state that they were faking hand tool work. ("I think they just did the hand planing for show in the video, then they go back to using their expensive machinery. The impression I got was that they learned their planing techniques from watching videos of other guys who also just plane a board to "show you how it's done", then go back to their machinery.")

Like Charles, I think that Doucette and Wolfe do excellent work. I also enjoy their videos, and I believe their hand work demonstrates they have achieved a high level of skills. This is not 18th Century technique. So what? The end results are excellent.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

TomD

It can be an apples and oranges thing. Are we talking Japanese blades, on matched stone, that are properly sharpened. That is a whole other thing compared to western tools, and stones. But my point is mainly that the modern day serious amateur user, not only doesn't put in a 12 hour day, but he buys so many new tools that he will never use them up due to volume. I make no apology for that because back in the 70s the tools on offer were terrible, and in Canada the second hand market is/was pretty useless. I read books by Dunbar on the wonders of old tools, but saw only few of them. So one upgraded as one went along. More recently in addition to that a lot of people, including myself, also make our own tools. So there goes another layer on top of everything else.

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Hi Charles

My sincere condolences.

Kind regards

Derek

Re: The A2 Steel Debate Going on Elsewhere

david weaver

Charlie, I'm very sorry to hear that. I almost didn't read this post, because I didn't want to just continue on old arguments that just repeat over and over. My condolences to you, and do what you need to take care of yourself and your daughter.

All of this stuff on the internet is just arguments. If there's anything we can do to help, please let us know - I'm sure others would pitch in, too. I know I can come up with something if there's a need.