Veritas Honing Guide

I am a advocate for training wheels as needed

Bill Tindall

If a jig or any other aide leads to success, builds confidence, adds pleasure or what ever, I am all for it. There are enough obstacles to making a piece of furniture without having to make any part of it more difficult than it needs to be. In the end the piece of furniture will be judged by its design and execution and not by whether a jig was used to sharpen a chisel.

When the "training wheels" become a hindrance they will be abandoned.

Re: Perhaps that was the intent...

Pam Niedermayer

Didn't work? Maybe not totally, but I voluntarily shut up about it. Why should I bother to help enlighten those who seem self-satisfied and don't want to be enlightened about anything much, to the point of insulting those who do things differently? Even in jest. They can stay in ignorance. I no longer have any patience at all with them.

Pam

Re: Oh, I don't know...

TomD

That is true, probably not everyone uses every jig, and all tools are a sort of Jig. For instance Larry's planes are just jigged chisels.

I had the mark 1. I use it rarely but they have their place. I bought the mark II because these jigs all have one flaw which is that they are too narrow for many planes. But I took it back. It was not a net improvement.

The squareness thing is not an issue, you just slap the tool in there, and place it one the stone, then ensure you have good contact all around by twisting it until it settles in. Still, as others have pointed out you can use a jig to set the jig... At some point I start to agree with Larry.

Re: an alternative sharpening approa, not jig-free

TomD

That isn't jig free, probably nothing is. But Using an adjustable tool rest is as much a jig as anything. I just place my fingers on the tool rest balance the tool on top, and grind away. I learned this method from turning, back when Richard Raffan was the dude. He sharpened like that, and it gives great flexibility. It is basically the analog to turning, where you rest a tool on a rest, not a ramp, and move it all over the place, taking cuts at all sorts of angles. The only difference is that in sharpening the tool gets cut.

Often I don't even bother with the fingers on the rest. and just approach the spinning blade. The key is a very gentle approach to the abrasive so you can have it in full contact with "no" cutting occurring. This allows you to find the angle before the cutting starts, and then burn some metal.

More or less at random here is a guy who know how to grind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt5cR7LQOA0

Re: an alternative sharpening approa, not jig-free

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I've watched other knife grinders and have a total respect for their abilities with a grinder. How they can get repeatable bevels and hollow grinds without a rest is so far beyond my abilities or comprehension it's not worth discussing.

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

David Weaver

All jig or no jig talk aside, the jig isn't the fix when you grind or hone something out of square. If you're removing too much metal from one side or another, then remove metal in a way that doesn't do that, or remove more from the long side to correct it.

If you're not setting the iron in the jig square, then figure out a way to make it square before using the jig.

It's an issue that thought will fix better than new tools.

But as far as some folks may just use planes as a novelty or in very limited circumstances smoothing, well...maybe a jig can fix it.

In terms of the jig or no jig war, why does anyone who goes one way or another car what anyone else thinks in the first place?

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

Schtoo

In terms of the jig or no jig war, why does anyone who goes one way or another care what anyone else thinks in the first place?

Apparently it's important to be one or the other.

Apparently...

And 'they' are wrong too.

Apparently...

Stu. (allegedly!)

Re: an alternative sharpening approa, not jig-free

TomD

Or put differently, an hour in front of a grinder, with maybe some instruction, and you are there. Can't do what you won't try, but almost everyone can do this. There is a whole hobby of guys who think this is as basic as using a hand plane.

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

TomD

"In terms of the jig or no jig war, why does anyone who goes one way or another car what anyone else thinks in the first place?"

Really those are the words you live by?

Interesting question I suppose. I'm going to argue that given that in any real sense the "people" on this board do not actually exist in my life, that the whole experience is like communicating with little voices in ones head, that need to be repressed when they speak out of turn. Hell of a thing to have a fever on Xmas.

There is also a kind of weird personality thing where the self important part of one's character feels one knows something better than the other person (one hopes not without reason), while the self-denying part realizes one is zero something special so if it works for oneself, anyone could do it. Or to paraphrase Professor Higgins, "Why can't a woodworker be more like a me?"

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

John in NM

"In terms of the jig or no jig war, why does anyone who goes one way or another car what anyone else thinks in the first place?"

Well, because it seems to be human nature to feel that one is entitled not only to one's own opinion, but also the only opinion. I know I've said that before, but with all the discussions of tails vs pins first, sawstops, fancy benches and tool boxes vs plain, Japanese vs western tools, etc, etc, it seems to merit repetition. Rather tiresome really.

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

David Weaver

I guess there is some legitimacy to the self-importance thing.

I kind of figure that if I used a guide or I didn't use a guide and I got the results I wanted, i'd be inclined to look for other problems, though.

If larry doesn't use a guide, and david charlesworth does, I guess none of what any of them do enters into my thoughts when I sharpen. It did when I first started, but experience at the stones for all but the biggest of dawdlers (who will always make everything take a long time) will tell you what way you want to go, and then you can run about your business working on another problem where what you do really makes a material difference in the shop.

Re: Well, ivf everyone was an expert;

Moses Yoder

If everyone were an expert, there would be no room for us amateurs. I'm sure if I was sharpening an iron 10 times a day I would probably have learned not to use a jig by now. On the other hand, sharpening an iron once every ten months, I use a jig. I have never sharpened a bead cutting plane; I use my electric router for those cuts. When the router bit gets dull, I send it in for sharpening at a place that uses CNC technology for it.

Sharpening my profiled irons,

Chuck Nickerson

most of which I got from Larry & Don (and waiting for more) seems to use up my hand honing patience.

When I'm sharpening chisels or straight plane irons, I just want to get it done.

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

Pam Niedermayer

I don't think most people post from a self-importance stance. They're really more like evangelists sharing what they've found to be successful with others who have questions. In the case of the Larry's of the world, they know so much and are a tremendous help almost all the time. I think they also want to share what they've learned through many years of work, and I thank them. I know so much more that positively affects my work, it's almost like an apprenticeship very light.

Also, I think this desire is built into people, and largely accounts for our success so far as a species, tool builder teaching.

How about gaining a little more grace and generosity.

Pam

A lot of reaction to one comment...

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

...which may say a lot about the respect this group has for multiple viewpoints...

Jig/no jig/jigs sometimes - what works for any given me or you works for us. I like Pam's comment about people sharing their knowledge.

it's very frustrating for us  *LINK*

Larry Williams

We're in an unfortunate position where many of our customers have no frame of reference for how our planes should perform. For this reason, every plane has to be as well tuned and sharpened as we can make it before we ship it. It is disheartening to know that so many of those well tuned and sharpened planes we worried over don't work as they should today but that's just a reflection of all the sharpening nonsense we see in print and on the Internet every day. I try to get information out but all I seem to do is irritate people.

Sharpening is as easy or as hard as you want to make it. The link at the bottom of this post is to a video showing what I think of as making it too hard. It doesn't have to be that way and what I'm advocating is hundreds of years old. Learn to grind, keep your stones flat and hone at a slightly greater angle than you grind. When the honed bevel gets too big to raise a wire edge in three or four passes over the stones grind to reduce the size of the honed bevel. It's described in Peter Nicholson's 1831 The Mechanic's Companion. You can find it on Google Books at:

http://tinyurl.com/39fbpnq

Go to page 93 where he explains sharpening a jack plane iron. Notice he keeps mentioning flat stones. If this is a cult, it's just about sharpening and older than honing guides.

This morning I walked into the shop and after making coffee and firing up the wood stove. I grabbed those edge tools I hadn't put away when I left Saturday and took this photo of the bevels just as they were:

I adjusted the light so that the honed bevels would look dark. The plane iron on the left is 1 5/8" wide for an idea of scale. I could raise a wire edge on any of those tools with two or three passes on a stone. It's not some difficult to acquire skill to hold the same angle for two or three passes.

My objection to honing guides is that they cause people to focus on the bevel and that's the easy part. The difficult part is keeping the flat face truly flat, removing any wear bevel from the back and keeping the stone flat. Honing guides don't do a thing to help with this and consistent, dependable sharpening depend on it. The overwhelming majority of sharpening problems we see when out doing workshops, helping people on the phone or through e-mail originate on the flat face, not the bevel.


It doesn't have to be this hard

Amen Brother

Re: it's very frustrating for us

Pam Niedermayer

While it did look a bit fiddly, it didn't look all that hard. The video was only 2.64 minutes, and unlike The New Yankee Workshop, seemed to be a video of the entire process.

However, I agree with you, and I think using those rollers on a waterstone is hard on the stones. So normally I go jig free, finding it not difficult at all to follow a bevel and keep the back flat. When I do use a jig, whether a grinding stone tool rest (not that often) or hand held on a stone, is whenever I have to drastically change the bevel angle.

Pam

Re: it's very frustrating for us

David Weaver

2 1/2 minutes to hone a chisel is a crazy amount of time.

I generally will be off a 1k and 15k stone within the time it takes for the chisel in that video to make its first touch of the 1k stone (the first one shown).

I couldn't tolerate that routine, it is an interruption in woodworking thought at that length.

Re: it's very frustrating for us

Pam Niedermayer

Funny, I never timed any of this; but two and a half minutes doesn't seem like so much. It's all relative. But that said, there was nothing "hard" or complex about Chris' process.

Pam

Re: it's very frustrating for us

David Weaver

I guess everyone has different expectations in the shop.

I don't think the process was complex at all - he put a chisel in a guide at an angle and rubbed it on stones.

But I do think I couldn't tolerate that amount of time for anything but a chipped japanese chisel (that I couldn't put on the grinder).

I wouldn't, however, call that amount of time an unreasonable amount on a smoother iron including the time it takes to take a double iron apart and put it back in a plane. I don't mind as much using a guide and farting around with a screwdriver so much for that (I don't always, though) because it's nice to be precise about camber and such with a smoother iron.

Even when I grind a western chisel (after it's been honed 3-4 times) and hone it, it doesn't take 2 1/2 minutes, and I guess it's my opinion that most beginners would be a lot better off learning larry's method, because they'd have it down by the end of the first week, and spend more time on the wood.

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

David Weaver

I guess my grace and generosity is pretty much at a fixed level.

I'm a little more concerned about people reading anything they read on here and getting appropriate advice, regardless of whether it's graceful.

Sometimes appropriate advice is "ignore the argument between ___ and ___" or "don't worry about what anyone thinks about method x, y, z because they all work fine and you ponder them too much, you'll miss thinking about things more important or substantial".

It's sort of like the discussions of stones. In the end, it doesn't really make any difference what stones someone gets. 99% of the people who buy multiple sets are no better off than they were with their first set, and only wonder because seeing other stuff makes them curious. I am in that crowd, and I probably have gone through maybe 50 bench stones? I'm curious, and while I'm *very* aware of the difference between stones, and recognize that it's curiosity, i get a little worn out when we start talking about the supposed differences between all of the stones, and whether or not one may ultimately allow for a .00025" shaving and a .0003" shaving (nobody talks about them like that, but that's about where the difference between the finish stones is - at a level that makes no practical difference).

But I'm sure it will be hashed around hard and there will be arguments and people who wonder why someone doesn't just see it their way with the "huge differences".

The magic bullet

Bob Hackett

I think the real problem is one of thinking in terms of "right vs wrong". "good vs bad" or "quicker vs slower" as these are relative terms.

For me the real question is do I want to learn to sharpen, Plane, carve, build furniture or anything else under the sun exactly like someone else does it or do I want to indulge in a bit of experimentation and find the way that is best for me and makes me most happy?

Very few of us are willing to invest the time to fully understand the how and why behind the tools we own, we choose instead to focus on the wood or the end result.

To ask most WWers to understand metallurgy, abrasives engineering, cutting edge geometry/mechanics and a host of other things is just too much for some people and one of the reasons why many entry level WWers give up in frustration.

The best way I know to reduce that frustration and continue long term WWing is to join a local club. There you will find a group of people who will be happy to show you a wide variety of gear that has all worked successfully for each them. they will also walk you thru the techniques that work for them and hopefully they will be able to explain why they do things the way they do in a way that will enable you to get your head around the "hows and whys" of things. Keep an open mind and be willing to try a number of these different approaches before you settle on what you`d like to adopt as your own.

The only guarantee I or anyone else can give you is that you will evolve in this craft if you stick with it. You will make some less than stellar purchases and you will lose money and time exploring a few dead ends. Don`t beat yourself up too much over this. It`s the price of admission.

Ask Larry how many hours he has spent visiting other people`s shops and manufacturing facilities and how much money he has invested in exploring things that didn`t work as well as he had hoped in order to become as proficient as he is now. After he answers that question ask him if he`s done exploring ways to make his current system better and has stopped looking for a better,faster, more efficient way to do what he is so good at.

Larry and others here have an incredible amount of hard won knowledge they are willing to share. Just remember to keep an open mind and that there is no single magick bullet that is capable of killing all the demons that may come your way. Your demons are bound to be different from mine, that`s just the way the Universe works.

Re: Veritas Honing Guide

Pam Niedermayer

I'm a little more concerned about people reading anything they read on here and getting appropriate advice, regardless of whether it's graceful.

On the assumption that turnabout is fair play, what do you care?

Pam

Re: it's very frustrating for us

Pam Niedermayer

...it's my opinion that most beginners would be a lot better off learning larry's method, because they'd have it down by the end of the first week, and spend more time on the wood.

No argument there.

Pam