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Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

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Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#1

Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

stephen wiseman

>Just wondering since I've practiced my dovetails enought to believe, for now, that I can make a simple candle box which I'm in the process of. However I picked up and read THE JOYCE (part of my problem perhaps is that I read to much and do too little) but anyway it recommends marking the pins with the point of the saw drawn through the cut of the tail BEFORE the waste of the tail is chiseled out. It even says chiseling out the waste of the tails before marking "is a mistake beginners often make" yet I've never seen or heard of anyone doing this today. It seems one would have to be happy with ones tails, no paring after sawing, but other than that why is the Joyce not followed today?

Thanks All!

Stephen

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#2

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Don McConnell

>Stephen,

Some people, including myself, still mark the pins from the tails in the manner described by Joyce. I was taught to do it this way, and still prefer it when possible, though I've experimented with other methods.

If one is making the Edwardian style drawer dovetails with the very tiny pins (both tail cuts beginning in the same kerf), it is the most straightforward method of transferring the marks.

Don McConnell

Eureka Springs, AR

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#3

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Don, I'm having difficulty imagining how this procedure is more advantageous than chopping the tails, marking the pins by knifing along the tails, and cutting to the outside of that line. Seems like the only possible advantage is that the resulting line is your cutting line. But I know you know a lot more than I do, so help please. :)

Pam

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#4

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

mikew

>I'll be interested as well.

Seems the resultant kerf would actually be marking the inside of the cut line and when one cuts the pins they would need to cut just to the outside of the kerfed mark.

Which means I would need to leave my pin board a skosh longer than I typically do else the kerf might not get planed off.

Take care, Mike

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#5

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Mike/Pam/Don,

I'm with Don here - our trade training was to cut out the socket and then mark with a marking knife (single bevel) rubbing flat against the saw kerf that defined the socket anyway. Using the saw is another way of achieving the similar end, leaving a better mark to aim at and probably quicker.

I'd heard about using the saw (or an old card scraper pounded through the saw kerf) to mark out the mating piece before chopping out the waste - seems logical to me.

You run your saw through the original scratch mark left from marking out, Mike - it perfectly outlines the required position of the saw kerf.

The only area where I might see difficulty is if you're marking a lapped dovetail and you press a little too hard on the saw. In this case, you could end up with a saw kerf left on the edge of your finished drawer. As with all things wood related, a delicate touch is the key.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#6

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Dean J in MN

>You mention a good point -- that one would have to be happy with the tails, no paring after sawing. You should strive to not have to pare your inital cuts (be it tail or pin first). I think cutting straight, square, and to the line (split, leave or take) is worth your focus. After that, how you mark the mating piece is up to you, it has no effect on the resulting joint.

For what it is worth - St. Roy shows marking pins by drawing the saw through the tail kerfs. He aslo shows tails first, choped and marked, and pins first choped and marked. As Don mentioned, if you are cutting tiny pins you probably have no choice other than using the saw to mark your pins.

-Dean

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#7

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

David Charlesworth

>This method has the advantage that the final half tooth at the end of the dovetail saw cannot wander away from the side of the dovetail, during transfer, as a knife will sometimes do.

I think it was a speed technique used in production work, and have not tried it. Don't know why, since the logic is impeccable.

The saw kerf and any mark made by knife or awl, are actually in the part which must be left, on the side of the pins.

Subsequent cutting is adjacent to the edge of the line. All lines have some thickness/width. some more than others. This seems to me to be the whole conundrum of dovetailing, we must cut up against the marking out and cannot engage a saw in the line, ( without resorting to offset techniques).

best wishes,

David

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#8

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>if you are cutting tiny pins you probably have no choice other than using the saw to mark your pins

I don't know, Dean, a knife edge is much thinner than a saw blade, would leave a lot of room.

Pam

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#9

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Paul Kierstead

>Seems to me if you too a steel blank the same thickness as the kerf, and put an edge one it (bevel both sides) and marked using the saw kerf (pre-chop), you would get a mark dead center of the kerf, allow you to use the resulting line to guide the saw a little. If you follow what I mean. If you use the saw tip to mark it, it would be the same, yes? So you would saw down the line, not to one side or the other?

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#10

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Well, I'm a rank amatuer at dovetails, but I got a really nice saw! However, this idea sounds interesting, and I'm practicing regularly, so I'd like to try it.

If I envision this correctly, Joyce says to mark the tailboard and cut the tails. Then, does he still clamp the pin board in a vice, lay the tail board on top, and instead of a knife, simply put the saw back in it's curf (albeit rotated 90 deg) and pull back to establish a kerf in the pin board? Am I picturing this right?

I do think that marking the mating board is contributing to my error, along with not cutting perfectly straight/square yet.

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#11

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Wiley Horne

>Stephen,

Joyce's marking method will of course work, so long as you remember than you're marking on live wood, not waste. And are careful not to drag a chip off the very corner of the pin.

However, it seems to me it is more efficient to remove the waste first, at least on drawer sides. Because I can gang-saw the tails of both drawer sides with the same saw cuts. Then, with the two drawer sides still in the vise, can fretsaw the waste from both drawer sides at once. So in only one setup, I'm down to paring the waste of the drawer sides. It's like you're way down the road on only one setup.

So I don't see how saving the waste after sawing is going to help in the long run. That is, unless Joyce has a way of marking the pins with the drawer sides still in the vise, so that he achieves sawing the tails and marking the pins with one setup--that would be big. Does he do this, or does he dismount the tails board with the waste intact, and go to another setup to mark the pins?

Wiley

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#12

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>But the thickness of the knife,not the edge, has to fit through the gap at the narrowest point of the tails. The body of the knife would have to be the same as the saw kerf or thinner. JR

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#13

Doh! Ignore previous. I need more sleep.

Paul Kierstead

>

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#14

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sure, Joe, but that's not a huge deal unless you (impersonal) insist on using a thick knife. Plus, you mark with the bevel to the line, which means the thickest part of the knife is bent over a bit. It shouldn't be an issue, but if it is, use the saw. :)

Pam

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#15

Don't know where my brain was at.

Andrew F in Australia

>Thanks for the pickup David,

You are indeed marking in the wood you need to keep and need to saw adjacent to the mark.

I'm off from teaching and have a commission to make in the next month (after I get the workshop back in order.) I'll try it out and let you know how much quicker it is.

As we both agreed, it seems logical.

CHeers,

Andrew

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#16

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

stephen wiseman

>Thanks Don,

Nice to here someone using this method. I'm going to try it but due to my limited experience I'm not sure what my results will be worth!

Best,

Stephen

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#17

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

stephen wiseman

>Thank's David,

So the saw line or kerf is atill a "line" not a groove in a sense to put the saw back into but to use as a line to saw on the waste side of the line or kerf; right?

Many Thanks,

Stephen

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#18

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

stephen wiseman

>Thank's Dean

Makes sense but forgive me...don't know St. Roy?

Best, Stephen

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#19

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

stephen wiseman

>Hi Pam,

See what you mean as a lot of English makers use the Swan Morton scalpal which is VERY thin like an Xacto knife really.

Best, Stephen

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#20

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

stephen wiseman

>Hi Wiley,

No sir, he doesn't show marking more than one drawer side so you have a very good point as far as efficiency. I'll dive into it again this evening and see if he suggest anything else.

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#21

Since it's 1am in the UK

Andrew F in Australia

>and David most probably is sleeping, I'll jump in.

You've got it right, Steven. Saw on the waste side of the kerf/mark

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#22

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

stephen wiseman

>Thank you all:

Don, David, Pam, Mike, Paul, Dean, Andrew, Stephen and anyone I forgot or post later!

Many Thanks!

Again, what a great group you are - Thanks. I'm going to try it since I'm not experienced enough to gang up anyway and will be careful to not spelch (DC taught me this word and loves it - it is a fun word for splitering or tearing out!)the end edge when using the saw.

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#23

Re: Since it's 1am in the UK

stephen wiseman

>Good Deal Andrew...Thanks!

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#24

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Dean J in MN

>Stephen --

St. Roy, Roy Underhill of Woodwright's Shop fame. Track down his books, they are entertaining and full of great info.

-Dean

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Joyce)

#25

Re: Dovetails according to Joyce (the furniture Jo

Don McConnell

>Wiley et al,

Just got back from spending the day with my daughter, who's visiting for a couple of days, and am really surprised by the volume of responses this topic has generated. Guess my earlier response was a bit cryptic?

In any event, no one method is advisable for every situation, so there are times when I use a marking knife to transfer marks. However, when doing drawer dovetailing for cabinet/furniture work (which I haven't done for a little while now), I continue to prefer the method Joyce describes. Some part of that may simply be because I'm comfortable with it, but I'll attempt to explain my preference as best I can.

In part, it is a matter of efficiency. The saw is the correct gauge to draw through the kerf, and it's already on the bench.

As to other aspects of efficiency, Wiley and I may be doing somewhat different types of work. There is nothing about the method described by Joyce which precludes making the tail cuts in both sides of the drawer at the same time. So there is no difference there - in fact, I've done that routinely. I guess where we differ is that, especially for drawer work, the pins in my dovetails are small enough, and the material is thin enough (I often follow the British practice of using thinner drawer sides with drawer slips), that it is as quick, if not quicker, to chop the waste out with a narrow chisel, rather than using a coping saw.

Also, I don't clamp the drawer sides in place while doing the marking. Rather, I grip the front or back in the vise, with the end sticking up level with an appropriate sized piece of timber (a wooden jack, fore, or try plane works well) laying on the bench. Then, resting the side on the timber or plane and the front/back, I hold the side in place with my left hand (I'm right handed), while drawing the saw through the kerfs. I find that having the waste still in place, with the gauge lines intact, especiallly at the ends, helps me see when I have both pieces lined up accurately before firmly holding it in place. Guess I should also add, that I'm talking about flush, or non-lipped, drawer work, here.

All in all, pretty straight-forward and efficient.

As others in this thread have surmised, the saw is drawn through the kerf fairly lightly. And, in the case of the through dovetails at the back, one does want to watch the possibility of a bit of splintering out at the arris. However, with the lapped dovetail at the front, you can slightly lift the handle as you progress, so that only the toe of the saw is in contact, and stop the mark at/near the end of the kerf. And, as others have established, one saws to the waste side of the "kerf/mark," rather than using the mark to start the cut in.

If one is going for a very closely fit drawer (by easing both sides into the appropriate side of the drawer opening and fitting the front so that it enters the opening half-way), deep marks left by drawing the saw back through the tail kerfs could become a problem. However, I've found that light marks generally disappear during the clean-up while final fitting the drawer.

Don McConnell

Eureka Springs, AR

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