Hirsch chisel tool review

Re: Bobs

paul womack

>but prefer a fractional system to a decimal one (it makes calculations a lot easier).

Yeah - subtracting 3/16 from 7/8 is sooo easy!

BugBear

Re: Hirsch chisel tool review

paul womack

> Its too big for a groove in 4/4 stock,

I though one of the advantages of handtools work, scrub planes etc. was that your stock could be any size you wanted, not just the quantised PAR stuff from the mill?

10mm sounds like a an ideal mortise in 30mm stock :-)

BugBear

Re: Bobs

VTAndy4

>I haven't done math in years but that _is_ easy. ;)

-Andy

Cutlers

Ian (in Sydney, Australia)

>Adam

you may want to check your sources re the art of cutlers.

As far as I'm aware, cutlers were specialists who made knives and swords, rather than plane blades or chisels.

The Shorter Oxford Dictionary carries these definitions:

Cutler: one who makes, deals in or repairs knives, etc

Cutlery: (a) the art or trade of the cutler (b) articles made or sold by cutlers, as knives, scissors, etc; also implements for eating or serving food a table (the useage is dated to 1624)

I'll try and look up what the Complete Oxford says about cutlers tomorrow.

The blacksmith in any largish town would have been quite capable of making and heat treating a chisel or plane iron. Given the quality (and workability) of the woods available to the 18th century joiner there was no need to invest in quality steel for chisels or plane irons. To some extent this contention is borne out through the early European experience in Australia where it was found that axes were rapidly blunted by the hard Australian timbers. These hard timbers really onluy became workable upon the introduction of mass produced steel during the 19th century.

Ian

Re: Cutlers

Joel

>A cutler is anyone in any edge tool factory that puts handles on things.

It's actually a more job then that as the cutler is usually responsible for much more then that. including production schedules and things like that. This includes tools as well as knives.

Re: Bobs

Frank D. in Montreal

>Actually it is Bugbear...it took me no time to figure it was 1/16. Now if you ask me to subtract 264mm from 327, it'll take me a lot longer (actually I'll break out the paper and pencil...).

Re: Bobs

Frank D. in Montreal

>Oops,

Figures I'd make a mistake... Oh well. I'll go back to making coffee...3 spoons of coffee, one cup, a little water...

Scientists vs, Woodworkers

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I have training in science as well as woodworking and am comfortable with both systems. I think it is worth noting that centimeters and millimeters were developed by scientists and inches and feet were developed by woodworkers. Both the size of the inch and foot units and the common divisions of those units are suited to woodworking.

Re: Ding Dongs

thomd

>The bob system does seem like a better thing for woodworkers. It has a high hill to climb to get accepted, particularly given the high price and low availability of necessary tools. I need more than a ruler.

I have three measurement systems, Imperial, Client state, and Japanese in the shop. I need one more like a hole in the head. Though if a measurement fairy could just hop in and change everything to one system of measurement, that would be great.

The problem with the Client State happy talk is that in the real world measurement is an individual thing to the specific craft. The Bob is based on the idea that inches and feet are fine (I would say better), but there is a place for an easily divisible mm at the short end. That makes sense in cabinetmaking, whether it is the ultimate idea or not it at least shows an artful attempt. Another oddity is the propensity of client state designers to name their boats in feet. No this isn't for the American market. A "30 footer" just sounds better than a 9.2 meter yacht. Why don't they make 9 meter yachts, they do, but it sure ain't no 30 footer.

The fact that some pointy head took a break from executing nobility to devise a better method of measurement for science should never stop you from seeing the truth in your own craft. It may need it's own system of measurement. Only ding dongs believe a system of measurement that is better for science is more "scientific". I guess that's what you get when you drop the requirement for English. It's more scientific, like a science calculator is more scientific; it's designed for science. Using Imperial is not unscientific in the sense that dousing witches is.

Anyway, how well one measures is more important than the units.

Re: Bobs

Miles

>Seems to me that if one wants to work to fine tolerances, neither system is much easier on the mental arithmetic because as the 'smidgins' get smaller, there are more of them... so you end up subtracting 32nds or 64ths, or, equivalently, fractions of a millimetre. We all need verniers to set things this accurately, anyway, so whether it's getting a precise 3/64 or 1.19mm it's a moot point which units we are counting in.

I do slightly fall on the metric side as 1 23/32 - 17/64 is not my idea of easy to do in my head. At least 43.65 - 6.74 gets rid of the vulgarity.

I'm off to Detroit in the morning, where they still measure car engines in cubic inches and tax breaks in billions :-)

And BTW, to whoever was wondering why we went metric in the UK - for many purposes we didn't - it's still a pint of beer & a mile to the pub. Who cares about the rest?

cheers all

Miles

Where's this "BOB"? Thanks.

HC Sakman

>

Here *LINK*

Bill Houghton, retired fun in Sebastopol, CA

>I recall seeing an article on this a couple of years back. Having worked in and gotten comfortable with both metric (foreign auto repair) and imperial (limited American auto repair, mainly the Studebaker truck, and many other trades), I'm not quite ready to take on a new measurement system.

We could always introduce the decimal inch to add liveliness to the discussion - I've got one rule graduated in 100ths, in case I ever need to measure something in that standard, although I sure wouldn't have spent retail on it.

Bill, trying to remember whether the Federal Reserve Bank was on Air Force time when I worked there or if I'm just creating the memory from 40 years ago now


Bob's your rule

Re: Where's this "BOB"? Thanks. *LINK*

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Chico,

I gave you a link to the articles section of bobsrule.com so you can read up on the bob.


http://www.bobsrule.com/articles.htm

Mr. Lee, how we doin' with the Socket Chisels?

Tom Colligan

>That is, if I understood you correctly earlier this year, you saw this as a new tool on the boards. This thread alone has generated over 60 responses so there's quite an interest in this tool. Are we likely to see something from you soon? January?

And how about the new plough plane based, more or less, on the 289?

December?

Tia, Tom.

Thanks bill, Frank.

HC Sakman

>It may be a good idea, but we have enough to deal with 2 systems already. I also disagree with Bob's statement on imperial being suited to larger measurements better. On the other hand, I agree that fractional inches are easy to divide.

I can live and already living with inches, feet & miles...but I hope they get rid of Fahrenheit, which does not even begin to make any sense at all.

Thanks guys,

Chico...

More on Cutlers

Ian (in Sydney, Australia)

>One of the nice things about the Complete Oxford Dictionary is the inclusion of examples allowing one to track the evolution of a word's usage.

In respect to CUTLER, there is no indication in the Oxford that the word ever refered to people other than those who made or traded in knives, daggers, swords, sissors and such.

There is reference to the blacksmith and cutler trades being located close to each other but no indication that a cutler made mundane edge tools like chisels or plane blades.

I'm therefore prepared to stand by the asertion that any in showing of a word in use the that

Re: More on Cutlers

Joel

>Sorry but from personal consersations in the industry I can tell you that in this context the OED is incorrect.

Fahrenheit

Bill Houghton, retired fun in Sebastopol, CA

>You find the concept of water boiling at 212 degrees odd?

Minnesotans are likely to resist any change to Celsius, since they consider 32 degrees Fahrenheit balmy, and wouldn't want to think of temperatures below that as "below zero."

Re: More on Cutlers

Ian (in Sydney, Australia)

>Joel

now it's my turn to say sorry but...

I thought we were discussing what sorts of things an 18th century cutler might have made (as this is the historical period within which Adam practices) not what a cutler does within a 21st century factory

Ian

Re: More on Cutlers

Joel

>Concievably but there is no evidence to suggest that the usage of the word changed, and since toolmakers as a group aren't and weren't particularly literary there is no reason to assume that just because the OED didn't find a written attribution the current usage is not also historical.

What I would be interested in locating is a contemparary listing of trade titles and responsibilites, like something you would find in a trade union rate chart which would list job titles and rates but off the top of my head I don't know if I have any material like that to check in my library.

Re: More on Cutlers

adam Cherubini, NJ

>I'm having trouble following where you guys are going. All of the edge tool makers in Sheffield, Butcher, Cam, Greaves, Ibottson, Keyon, Law, Moulson, Newbould, Sorby to name just a few where members of the Worshipful Company of Cutlers, a trade guild formed in 1624 in Sheffield. London probably had a similar guild. These men worked with steel, specifically specializing in the construction of blades of all types. Their specialty included the making of steel, forging and heat treating. If you look at Smith's key, you'll get a pretty good cross section of the cutler's trade. They made scissors and axes, table knives and chisels. What they didn't make was architectural wrought iron hinges and latches, wagon parts, plows, etc. That was the work of blacksmiths. Its possible the village blacksmith could work steel into edge tools. But by all accounts, it didn't happen all that often. Tools were bought from dedicated tool makers from the mid 17th c on. The reality is, then as now, making edge tools is pretty darn complicated. So its not surprising there were specialists.

I think Joel is right that there were names for different people inside the edge tool manufacturies. Cutler probably wasn't the guy who put handles or scales on knives. In sheffield. Sheffield supplied most of England's tableware. Much of the town was engaged in making hollow handles for kitchen knives, there were specialist handle engravers and "chasers". There were grinders and glazers (not glaziers) who operated large grinding wheels.

But the biggest deal in Sheffield was probably the places that made steel. Greaves made their own steel, but there were others. Greaves had a shop along the river Sheaf (the famous Sheaf works). These folks really developed steel making. They invented stainless, and brought metal working into the industrialized age. I suspect they would have been insulted to be called lowly blacksmiths!

Adam

Then again...

Bob Hackett

>When you finally wore the steel from you axe,adze,hatchet,etc it was a local blacksmith who "Resteeled" it for you.

It stands to reason that if you can resteel a tool you could also make it from scratch.Same skill set involved.

MB

Re: More on Cutlers

Joel

>Adam,

I agree with you totally with one nit-pick. It's just a symantic thing. In an edge tool factory a Cutler was the title of who put the handles on things. could be tableware, hunting knives, or edge tools. It didn't matter - and handle is a handle is a handle and as you correctly point out the firms (certainly the larger ones anyway) that made edge tools made a wide variety - although inside the firms there was a lot of specialization - if you spent your day forging knives for pocketknives you didn't suddenly switch over and do chisels. Rates were piecework and that pretty much gurentteed that once you learned a specialty that was it - you couldn't switch around and make a living at it.

There is also a (and this isn't by way of disagreement with you at all) fundimental difference between a smith who is forge welding steel to wrought iron tools on a daily production basis and a local blacksmith who occasionally get a shot at it. THe forges are different, the tools are different, and there is a fundimental difference between trying to forge steel in a local forge by hand vs a trip hammer of orders of magnitiude of speed and power. This is why toolmaking was a specialzed industry and aside from major concentrations of manufacture you would have had lots of local toolmakers who were specialists too. However even given that the final toolmaking was done in lots of places, blademaking for commerical enterprises was localized very early on to specialist firms because they could do it a lot cheaper than any local guy.

THat all being said - getting back to your original post (and this is where I disagree with you )- there was no standardization in sizes and tools varied considerably in small amounts in width - expcially considering the chisel tapering in width and what happens as the tool is reground.

Re: Hirsch chisel tool review

Jeremy

>Adam

Get over it.

Too many of us in places other than the US tire of the US centric attitude. Your ilk would benefit greatly from a little adoption of what is good out there that is not "made in the USA".

I in fact use both Imperial and SI measurement in both my engineering field and hobby time furniture making. Simply Adam, apply what tools and measurements best suit the job.

Look to the world around you. Its bigger than you think.

Jeremy

Re: Hirsch chisel tool review

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Jeremy, Adam said he has a small set of Hirsch chisels. This fact alone, assuming he wasn't given them just for the review, bespeaks a willingness to think globally.

Pam