Hirsch chisel tool review

Size matters, Andrew

adam Cherubini, NJ

>Take it from a yank.

Let's start by cleaning up your history a little. Blacksmiths didn't make woodworking tools generally. Edge tools were made by Cutlers, men who made nothing but blades. And they generally "mass produced" tools, starting from the time in which England became industrialized (after the Fire of London). Before that time, fine furniture was rarer and difficult to build. The styles were technically cruder to my eyes. Dovetailed cases for example, were not common (or existant).

It would be likely that all of most of one's tools came, if not from a single Cutler, than from a single town- like London or Paris or Sheffield or Solingen. So the variability of absolute units wasn't an issue.

But you are correct that 18th c tools varied in sizes. Because my personal tools came from a variety of regions and times, I'm a bit worse off- my tools being less reflective of earlier kits. So I "corrected" my plow irons to perfectly match my mortisers for example.

And actually, as Derek mentioned, this was my idea that lead to my post here. That the dubbed edges issue, raised a while ago by David Charlesworth, might be solved by dressing down the edges instead of doing all that back flattening and that the edge work might also "correct" the widths to more useful sizes. Since I've done this work before, I was comfortable withthis recommendation. There is very much less material to remove on the edges than on the back.

Now to the meat of your comment: You're right, if all my tools were metric I'd be better off. But one problem I'd still face would be that I'd be missing a chisel equal to or a little greater than 1/3 my standard stock thickness. 6mm to 10mm is a pretty big jump in a range of sizes oft used. So its not just the tools matching, but the tools matching the stock and the structural requirements of joints in that stock.

Just for comparison sake, 18th c mortisers were available from 1/8"-1/2" or 5/8" in 1/16" increments. Firmers were availkable in at most 1/8" increments. So there were plenty of tools in the small sizes. So I guess to make me happy, I'd want Hirsch to make 5, 7 ,9 and 13mm chisels. Make sense?

Adam

Well, not JUST edge holding....

John in New Mexico

>I've often wondered how many sales Two Cherries gets based on the snazzy label, I know I've considered it.

Isn't the human affection for trademarks amazing? I met a Festool dealer once who actually had a green Festool tattoo on his arm.

John

Re: Size matters, Andrew

Joel

>sizes varied because the way tools were forged was that the blacksmith started out with a set size blank and forged it to the appoximate size.

Then the hardenders got it and then the grinders ground the tools, sometimes going back and forth to the hardeners depending on the tool. But at no time did anybody bother to ensure exact sizes - it just wassn't important and from tool to tool by the same maker there is variation.

Actually if you consider 18th century chisels which are fishtail in appearance, (even the parellell ones are slightly fishtail) after a few sharpenings they get a little smaller anyway.

(Moxon described mortising where size is determined by paring to a scribe line which is far more accurate for sizing joints than relying on a chisel wideth anyway)

What's that guy going to do

Bill Houghton, retired fun in Sebastopol, CA

>when he changes product lines from Festool to Fein?

Re: Hirsch chisel tool review

Victor P

>How much more timely does it get. I purchased a set of 2 Cherries at the woodworking show in Houston about two years ago. Just last week I pulled out the box and the 10 mm specifically to do some paring on a small project I'm attempting to complete with all hand tools. I was thinking to myself: "This is wierd, everthing else in this shop is in feet and inches, why am I intruducing this into the equation?". After removing the laquor to a usable distance and putting a decent edge on the tool it seems to do a resonable job on the hickory I'm using for the project, but after using a morticing chisel it sure felt flimsy.

Off topic: Help needed. How does one go about cleaning up the inside corners of a 10 degree angle through mortice? Mine look mighty ugly. Maybe when the tenon is forced through it won't matter?

Victor in Houston

Re: Interesting... OT Rant warning

VTAndy4

>Hi Moses,

I agree that metric is preferable in many ways -- but I also find the ridiculousness of using Imperial units to be appealing!

-Andy

Bobs

Frank D. in Montreal

>I was brought up in metric but prefer a fractional system to a decimal one (it makes calculations a lot easier). We should all be using Bobs.

Buy a grinder

Tom Stockton

>It's not hard to modify a chisel to the width you want a few minutes with a grinder or sander will take enough of a metric chisel to make it imperial. I'm with Chico I've never measured the width of my chisels I use the one that works and is the correct size. If you chop mortises with a 1/2" chisel the tenon that is cut to fit probably isn't going to be 1/2" wide. In this case you are making tenons to fit a mortise not a set measurement, each hand cut mortise is slightly different.

Tom

I'd use a...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA

>Guide block and a sharp chisel.

Probably does, Adam

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Adam,

It could have been me that you've misdirected the reply.

Commonly used sizes - 3mm for cleaning up internal returns such as corners of lap dovetail sockets, 1/4", 3/8" 1/2", 1" for general bench work; 1.5" or 2" for paring joints.

Slot mortiser bits are in mm as are the router cutters. I just work either by hand or by machine, rarely both to cut joinery

If I really need to have an 8mm chisel, I've got one buried away somewhere (Kirchen/Two cherries pigsticker) I think that there's a 4 and a 6mm chisel somewhere too. Just haven't had the need for either in ages.

Cheers,

Andrew

(this time it's really me)

Cheers.

You beat me to it

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Have you tried that system? Seems interesting...

DC

"Think" is the operative word here.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: I'd use a...

Victor P

>Thanks Scott.

I can only assume the operative word here is sharp. I'm working on that one. the guide block wants to slide around. I asume you just use it for setting the angle before you chop or pare rather than as a guide while chopping and paring. Right or wrong?

Victor

Re: Hirsch chisel tool review

mikew

>Was a good thread, Adam!

One the one hand, I laughed. On the other, well, it caused me to think about the tools I use.

It also caused me to ask myself...Just what were the British thinking switching to metric anyway? If they had just stuck with good ol' imperial units. Units used in the heyday of British tool making, we would have more and perhaps better choices in new tools today.

While none of my vintage Butcher firmer chisels are exact, my Howarth are exact enough of a match to my other woodworking tools. Same goes with my little 043 irons and the wonderful 050 I was recently sent: the irons are near exact in imperial units.

Even my Sorby paring chisels--which I love and depend on, btw--match these other tools. While the plastic handles on my LV bench chisels leave much to be desired, I am a woodworker and could replace them, they too are pretty darn close to all my other tools in sizing.

My mortise chisels, the Sorby sash and the vintage OBM chisels are close enough to each other to not care. Oh, and the couple woodie dado planes are pretty right on. But then, they are murrican ones.

I suspect that when LV and LN come out with their plow planes, they too will be spot on, albeit expensive. But still an option for a tool bought once. Same goes for the LN chisels.

Of course, that still leaves new chisels the rest of us can afford. But there are options which fit some of the criteria. My choice for new chisels was to get them in acceptable sizes as the primary goal, and simply sharpen more often and if I ever feel the need, make new handles for them like I needed to for many of my vintage chisels I love dearly.

Take care, Mike

Re: You beat me to it

Frank D. in Montreal

>I've never actually tried them Denis, I can't get myself to buy a combination square that would force me to cenvert everything else in my shop, but I've thought about it on numerous projects and I think Bobs would be more practical than a system built on 8ths. I could be wrong though...there's nothing like true practice to see if a system really works or not.

Thinking?

Rob Brophy Niagara Falls

>Adam,

I don't know much about you, your work, or your techniques so pardon me if I'm way off base here. I am unable to consider your methods and approaches while reading your review because of this. All I can do is take your review at face value. A quick perusal of the 'net reveals that you build period reproductions using period tools in costume?

"The 2mm is pretty much a joke. Its .075 wide, so just a little over a sixteenth. Its a worthless tool in my shop."

But it might not be useless to those who do fine work in hard wood. A review should consider the merits of the tools in other contexts.

Why did you buy these chisels in the first place? Surely you examined them before dropping a hundred bucks or more? Was the package marked 'metric'? Were you just looking for something to grump about?

Yes, in some ways chisels were made better a hundred years ago. Perhaps our metallurgy is better now, but the aesthetics were much better then. They also took the time to manufacture (and purchase) different sets of chisels for different tasks instead of expecting one set to take the abuse of a mallet and still be comfortable on the palm.

"In all, I hate the handles, resent the dubbing, and feel U.S. cabinetmakers are screwed out of a decent 1/4", 5/16", and 3/8" chisel. The fact that the steel is as good as it gets doesn't make up for their missing sizes."

To be perfectly fair, all of this was clearly visible before you bought the chisels...again, why did you buy them?

Re: Buy a grinder

Dean J in MN

>

If you chop mortises with a 1/2" chisel the tenon that is cut to fit probably isn't going to be 1/2" wide. In this case you are making tenons to fit a mortise not a set measurement, each hand cut mortise is slightly different.

In my shop, my tenon gauges are made to match each of my mortise chisels. The pins are fixed. I mark both the mortise and the tenon with the same gauge. So I attempt to have each hand cut mortise the same. The mortise chisel defines the mortise, the gauge is slaved to the chisel, and that gauge in turn defines the tenon.

Groups of tools work together, and they should help define what the other tool needs. That is why metric/sae mix shops can cause frustration.

-D

Chisel handles

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>Don't get me started. Most chisel handles are a joke in my big paws. The only ones that come close are the Stanley yellow handled butt chisels. All others are waaaay too small to work. Who has these delicate hands? Does everyone hold chisels with two fingers like a shrimp fork?

When I made my mortise chisels, I made the ash handles out of 8/4 stock. They are a comfort. Even though they are struck most of the time, when paring, it is like paring with a tennis ball. No need to pry the fingers apart at the end of the day. Let's hear a resounding *HUZZZAA* for LARGE handles.

Re: Hirsch chisel tool reviewWhat about these? *LINK*

Derek

>Last I checked they are made in the USA. Expensive but very well made and they have all the sizes listed.


http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1234

Both kinda sorta...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA

>I use it a guide to mark the outside of the piece. You can then use a drill watching your layout line. Then use it as a final paring guide. Be sure to make it big enough to get a clamp on it to hold it down.

Good luck!

Well, there ya go.....

Rob Brophy Niagara Falls

>...those look just fine: Imperial measure, no mingy, wee 1/16" chisel, less than a weeks wages for a set that will last a lifetime, and made in the USofA!! What's all this bellyaching about?! :-)

Good spotting, Derek,

Rob

Re: Thinking?

thomd

>With the 1/16" chisels it would be interesting to know what the justification for them is. Are they eye candy and if not, where is the historical evidence they were a useful vibrant part of a tool kit. Of course anyone who finds them so today doesn't need to justify the fact. But I see little evidence for their need in the artifact one sees around. Could be I don't look carefully enough at small enough objects.

Re: Thinking?

Wiley Horne

>Thom,

You're installing 1/16" wide stringing on a table leg or an apron. The stringing has 4 corners per face. You cut the stringing with a stringing router. You need a tool to clean the 4 corners. 1/16" chisel.

Wiley

Re: Thinking?

Rob Brophy Niagara Falls

>Hi Thom,

Just off the top of my head I imagine 1/16" chisels were popular with those installing string inlay on their furniture. Also luthiers seem to find them handy...StewMac sells a set of chisels in 2mm, 2.4mm, 2.75mm and 3.25mm sizes.

Hardly a tool for common use, but one worth having unless you bang together your casework with nails.

Adam hasn't posted a picture of these chisels yet, so I'm sorta imagining his 1/16" chisel attached to a monsterous handle :-) The small chisels I use (to be honest I don't know their widths, but under 1/8") resemble carving tools and have rather diminutive handles.

Rob

P.S.

Wiley Horne

>I am talking about 1/16", not 2mm. So I still basically agree with your point.

WH