Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating part

Thanks, Vijay.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Paring chisels for best edge

Joel

>A soft friable stone will break down into a finer grit as the stone dries and you continue to hone on the drying slurry. A harder stone will not develope a sluury so easily and the slurry will break down slower. So for the same result with a harder stone you need a finer initial grit and you need to work it longer. But the stone will stay flatter.

Re: Enough said?

mikew

>But see, Pam, there is so little difference between a hollow grind and a flat edge. Of course, the bigger the wheel, the less a difference and vice versa.

As well, if one hollow grinds at a slightly steeper angle, I would maintain there is not a measurable difference between the two at the weld between the two steels.

I know when I hollow grind a new to me chisel and follow on the stones, 1k 2k and 8k, by the time I am done with the 2k, there is nearly no hollow grind left. This takes less than 5 minutes to pull out the stones up through the above grits.

There's a lot of misinformation about hollow grinding our there. This I have found especially true of extreme proponents of laminated steel.

As to Marks, well, he is a good maker, making sound pieces and, well, doing as well as teaching.

Using your expression of "Enough said," combined with your comment re Marks, "Do you intend to say that David Marks is the gospel on Japanese tools?" is a bit confrontive and implies at least you think he is let's say, giving a bad example. Sorry if that's not what you meant, but is how I took it. And based on your reply to me, I think that is a correct interpretation. Could be wrong. Have been before.

As you note, the Japanese are not the only ones who laminated soft and hard steel into cutting edges. Heck, even Stanley did for a while. The English did it for a long time. Heck, they even hollow ground the blades. I think it would be presumptuous to think all those craftsman got it wrong.

I think most methods of sharpening are valid on woodworking handtools. Some take longer, some less. Some use water, some oil, some dry. Some use wheels, man-made stones, sandpaper, etc. None of those properly used will hurt laminated or non-laminated blades. To teach otherwise perpetuates sharpening myths.

Take care, Mike

Re: Enough said?

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.

>Hi Mike,

I guess I have always taken the view that most of the time steel of any kind is fairly robust enough to be sharpened in many ways. I have felt that the process of refining the edge has some basic methods, some faster than others.

I am on the path rightnow that finer water stones that are used to refine an edge add life to the edge (time between sharpenings), maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea that there are more than a single way to sharpen and hone an edge.

I maybe ignorant here, but I have never heard of seen David Marks, it must be one of those US shows we do not get in Canada..

:-)

Okay, educate me..

take care,

Jim

Re: Enough said? *LINK*

mikew

>"I am on the path rightnow that finer water stones that are used to refine an edge add life to the edge (time between sharpenings), maybe I am wrong, but I like the idea that there are more than a single way to sharpen and hone an edge."

Hi Jim,

Yeah, all things being equal, I do think a more refined edge gives better edge retention. Certain it can make a difference on the surface left behind. But the edge retention I think begins a diminishing return.

When I was making a living with woodwork, I rarely honed past a 2k stone except my paring chisels and my smoothers. Even the paring chisel only went to 2k if what I was paring didn't require more. I would pare between parts. So I only needed to take a couple swipes. The stones lived on my bench.

In the morning with my coffee, I would sharpen everything from the day before up to the 8k. But during work, nah, most times it was simply the 2k stone. And if my wife's Tormek was set up, chances are I simply used the strop and .5 micron paste on the leather honing wheel. Quick to renew the edge.

But do know I'ma heathen when it comes to "established" methods. Especially sharpening I suspect. I've been know to use a smooth concrete floor for touching up chisels during on-site work. I've used smooth river rock smeared with toothpaste to sharpen carving tools. From there, it's all good.

As for DM, he's got a web site. The link is below. He's a pretty good teacher, excellent builder. He's been experiementing with different metals in his woodwork for quite a while. His work isn't for everyone--and neither was mine.

Take care, Mike

who's gotta get back to work...


David Marks web site

There and Back Again

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.

>Thanks Mike,

I am rarely able to refine any thing with concrete..LOL...I usually have bad experiences with my hand tools when the two meet, it'sort of more like reshaping.

I agree that what ever works for you is what works...I know that as a novice I look for simple ways that produce repeatable and reproducable results...as many I am inclined to spend money some times to buy things that will support that part of my needs..and look for an elusive way perhaps that will make it easier. This is not always the wisest way to invest, it takes time I think for a person like myself to learn what works best, even to develop a skill related to teh result I want.

I have gone back to water stones after having tried a few other methods..with a wide range of results...I might just try to see what my edge looks like after 4k rather than 8 k, it might be enough? If it is I have a few stones for sale I guess..

:-)

That is a nice link, Thanks...

Take care,

Jim

Re: Enough said?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Pam, I'm eagerly awaiting your response to Thom, I'd like to read yours before putting a response myself...

DC

Re: There and Back Again

mikew

>I think it depends on what one finds acceptable as to where each person stops honing. And I do draw a distinction between fine edges and surfaces, and paring mortises, tenon shoulders, etc.

I also rely on scrapers a lot, both hand and plane type.

Hah, the moral of the story on the on-site concrete floor sharpening is when you are 40 miles from home, don't forget a sharpening stone! The river rock 'n' toothpaste: I lived 20 miles from the nearest town, made about $400 a month, mortgage was $200 and I started carving for money. Trust me, the slip stones were the first extravagance I spent money on.

But it does harken back to a time people used what they had, which even under some of the better circumstances was not often what we have available today in steel or sharpening gear.

Ah well. Too much thinking tonight. I came in for coffee. Time for the second shift.

Take care, Mike

Re: Paring chisels for best edge

Dave Burnard

>Hey Pam!

Here a few ramblings about stones...not directed at anyones comments in particular. Hopefully some useful information included. YMMV. I just do this as a hobby. ;)

Just to be clear, I give my whacking chisels a thorough sharpening on the stones I use. So usually that's a synthetic blue or Shapton 2000 middle stone followed by either a King 6000 or 8000 stone. They're plenty sharp. Sometimes I switch and use a different polish stone, or use natural middle and polish stones just because I can and it's interesting to try out different stones. If I'm paring something where it really matters, like redwood or red cedar end-grain, or if I'm finish planing something then I like to finish with a natural stone.

I wasn't trying to be coy about which natural stone(s) I use. Even if I knew the specific mine and exact layer that my favorite stones came from (and for most of them, I don't have a clue) it wouldn't actually help anyone find the same stone. The quality can vary significantly within a layer, and appearance doesn't signify much. Maybe if I was a 3rd generation stone merchant I could tell by looking at a stone if was good or bad or what it should be used for - but I'm certainly not and neither is anyone else in the states now that Mori-san of Aquastone is gone. For the most part I bought high quality stones and/or cheaper stones that I had been able to try before buying. Some didn't work out, others did. The hunt for a good stone is half of the fun - it really helps to be able to try before you buy if you're a bargain hunter.

I suspect an established dealer can fairly safely recommend a good quality natural stone not because they are a stone or sharpening expert themselves, but because their reputation depends on it and they are particular about that with their supplier. Those dealers are going to ask questions about how you intend to use the stone, what tools and what steels will you be sharpening and how experienced you are in order to pick something they think will work out for you. Those bargain stones from LV, while a bit of a crap shoot, were probably pretty good on the whole - and because they were small, their price allowed some risk taking and experimentation. The students at the Daiku Dojo classes in the Bay Area are fortunate, Mori-san's family will occasionally send over a bushel box of stones for them to look over, try and maybe buy.

I'd almost rather see a picture of the bevel of a plane or chisel after being sharpened on a stone, rather than a picture of the dry stone. I think they are equally important anyway. That mifugwai guy on eBay is also doing something very useful - he shows a picture of the stone after something has been sharpened on it a bit so you can see what the stone looks like in use. How much paste, black marks from the iron/steel etc. Both of those would be useful for manmade stones as well.

Hardness. I guess it all depends on how hard and how soft we're talking about. I have some really hard natural stones that cut well, but are a challenge to use. If these had been my only introduction to natural stones I probably would have gotten stymied and stopped using them. I have several slightly less hard stones that work very well, several softer stones that leave a nicer finish, and then one or two really soft stones that are wonderfully easy to use but I'd use them up so fast if I didn't do most of the polishing on something else.

On a softer stone the material breaks away from the parent stone more easily to expose fresh abrasive, which means the stone wears out more quickly too. The freshly exposed abrasive makes for faster sharpening though. On hard stone the surface of the stone breaks down more slowly so the stone stays flat longer and you won't see much paste accumulate - just the black metal itself. I often have to use a nagura to make a really hard stone work - which seems to indicate that either the nagura paste is doing the cutting - or it's cleaning/roughing up the surface of the hard stone to expose fresh abrasive.

On many stones the abrasive particles themselves also break down to form a paste of abrasive that is finer than the freshly exposed abrasive of the stone. You don't want to use much water on a stone like this, add a drop at a time, because you risk washing away the finer abrasive and missing out on it's benefits. Same thing Joel mentioned - with little or no water on the stone the paste starts to have more of an affect as it covers the stone and starts doing the sharpening. On the opposite ends of things I suppose are the diamond abrasive pastes - where the abrasive particles don't break down at all they just keep cutting at whatever grit they started out at - so you need finer grits to simulate what you can do with the paste from a soft natural stone that might cut like an 8000 abrasive when good and wet but more like a 15000+ abrasive when the paste is left on.

Compare a couple of commonly available manmade stones, the King S and G series. S stones are soft 6000 grit. G stones are harder and 8000 grit. The S stone makes a mirror like polish because the grit itself breaks down quite quickly. The blade may look mirror like before you remove the last of the scratches from the earlier stone. The G stone's abrasive breaks down more slowly, so it actually cuts faster - it doesn't produce such a nice a mirror polish, but keeps cutting instead. With a little more patience you can make a nice paste and use that to finish the edge.

Zzzz. Sorry for the long story.

Not a contradiction

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Denis

Where my King 8000 leaves a mirrored surface, the natural finishing stone I have does leave a matte finish.

This is not contradictory. The man made stone may be made up entirely of 8000-level grit. However natural stones are a mix of grits, in a polishing stone this may be anything between 1000 - 8000 grits. I suppose that the difference between a natural polishing stone and natural grinding stone is just the percentage of a grit type, not an absolute amount of it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I have made some strides in improving my abilities over the last few years, but I accept that I am not going to ever get it without being part of the tradition. To me though, the tradition of steel and sharpening is far too broad to be dismissed as BS just because one doesn't have the current ability to measure up.

That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well, only possible with liberal doses of humility and sublimation of ego. Is it necessary? No, absolutely not, but it's fun and I'm learning a lot.

I'm just starting on the natural water stone sharpening process, but so far it's pretty clear that the skill is in matching the steel to the stone. This is almost impossible to remember, so some methodology for recording results is necessary, doesn't hurt to have a laptop nearby.

And yes, it's been very tough obtaining a selection of stones on a limited budget. LV has helped a lot, and mifuqwai (Tomonori Nakaoka) on ebay has been most helpful, only real problem is that shipping costs are eating me alive.

So, like anything worth knowing, it's all process. The fact that occasionally I end up with a sharp tool is almost incidental. :)

Pam

Re: Enough said?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Using your expression of "Enough said," combined with your comment re Marks, "Do you intend to say that David Marks is the gospel on Japanese tools?" is a bit confrontive and implies at least you think he is let's say, giving a bad example. Sorry if that's not what you meant, but is how I took it. And based on your reply to me, I think that is a correct interpretation. Could be wrong. Have been before.

Not fair, Mike. First, "enough said" is not an expression I ever used. Second, I said I was responding to your interpretation, not to anything Vijay said (I asked him what he'd meant, he replied below, that's as simple as it gets in my view). I probably was a bit hostile to you, but only because you seemed to assume a lot about what Vijay said and then demanded my response based on that assumption. I don't respond well to command mode.

Now, on to the topic. Yes, hollow grinding is probably misunderstood; but not necessarily by me. I know what it is, some advantages, some disadvantages, and none of it matters to me when it comes to laminated edge tools. Yep, closed mind for the moment.

I think most methods of sharpening are valid on woodworking handtools. Some take longer, some less. Some use water, some oil, some dry. Some use wheels, man-made stones, sandpaper, etc. None of those properly used will hurt laminated or non-laminated blades. To teach otherwise perpetuates sharpening myths.

I agree with all of this. I have no illusions about hollow grinding, et al, hurting chisels. I've done all of these methods (except for hollow grinding Japanese edges) at one time or another with varying degrees of success. And I never said that all those craftsmen who do get it wrong. But that is not what this is about. To me, this is about maximizing laminated chisel use, the performance and pleasure and results in wood.

Pam

Re: Paring chisels for best edge

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Joel, I knew that, or thought I did. And that's why it's recommended for beginners to use softer stones? Because it takes longer to raise a slurry on a hard stone?

Pam

Re: Enough said?

mikew

>Sorry, Pam.

No intent to insult you or demand a response at all.

When you say, "First, "enough said" is not an expression I ever used" are you overlooking your change to the thread title? That's where I got it.

And again, I'm not demanding a response. Take the above question as rhetorical.

Take care, Mike

Re: Paring chisels for best edge

Joel

>Bingo - that's it. A harder stone will cut faster at it's original grit size because it isn't breaking down but you need more stones and finer gaps between grit sizes.

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.

>Hi Pam,

That does sound like a journey and recording results is a great way to be able to reproduce the results you do find...I'll bet that file on your lap top is worth a hours of work!

:-)

Funny how I always think I will remember something or a detail when I see it or read about it...without printing it out or saving it I can't remember it the next day sometimes.

take care,

Jim

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, I've learned from experience that I do forget stuff. Keeping records is particularly important for these natural stones that don't come with labels and grit notation. I've had to label the ends of the stones with magic markers, too. I'm hoping against hope that a given blacksmith's tools will sharpen the same way, but even that I doubt, expect wide variation from paring to mortise chisels, etc.

It is funny how much my memory has improved simply by returning to school, seems that some channels have opened up again. Now that I see everything that happens as a potential story, I find I pay much more attention.

Pam

Re: Paring chisels for best edge

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Wow, thanks, Dave, that's a keeper. That's interesting that you mix the use of synthetic and natural stones routinely. And I didn't think you were being coy, especially not after buying some of these natural stones and realizing how impossible it would be to remember which is which without labels or colors to signify. Wish I'd started this process three or four years sooner so I could have taken my tools to Mori-san's shop/store in Berkeley and gotten some expert advice.

Tomonori Nakaoka (mifuqwai) is my main stone (and a few other tools for that matter) vendor. He's a temple carpenter who seems to know what he's talking about. Right now he's trying to explain to me the difference between different types of nagura (regular and Chunagura, which he explains is "a little rough grit, not suitable for harder and so smooth grit stones." I think this means you use Chunagura for softer hard stones. Anyhow, he's been most helpful, and I'm usually able to understand his English (which is so superior to my Japanese I'm embarrassed).

Hardness. I guess it all depends on how hard and how soft we're talking about. I have some really hard natural stones that cut well, but are a challenge to use.

Challenging because it takes a long time to sharpen with them?

Have you found that all the chisel types from a particular blacksmith tend to sharpen properly with the same process?

Pam

Tomohito-san's sharpening guide

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Forgot to mention that Tomohito Iida is writing a guide for sharpening with natural stones. He's completed two installments. It available on his web site, contact him and ask is all that's necessary.

Pam

Not buying that

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Assuming that the abrasive particles in man-made materials are more closely distributed in size than in the natural stones (easy to accept as an assumption), then the edge obtained should be more consistent.

If there are some larger particles in the natural stones, these would create scratches, maybe too small to see, but the edge would be more serrated. It may be that the wood responds well to that kind of edge, maybe it's like a knife for cutting bread... But I wouldn't call it sharper.

I'll get back to this when I post a response at the bottom.

DC

:-)

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>

Not the theory

Frank D. in Montreal

>"...but the edge would be more serrated"

That's the thing, it's not. The theory of a coarser scratch pattern giving a serrated edge is nice, but that's obviously not what's happening here. Serrated edges are NOT good for woodworking. Serrations are also easy to see under a microscope.

Re: hollow grind - accelerate wear

thomd

>I have hollow ground japanese plane blades that got a bad nick in them. I didn't have any resultant problems, but:

1) the main purpose of hollow grinding is to accelerate tool wear. Both in the sense that the grinder hogs away material, but also in the sense that it then leaves an edge that is vulnerable to further hand sharpening. All good on cheap and cheerful stuff, but if I just paid 150 and inch for that edge, I don't want to have it work away so quickly.

2) Quick wear will change the surface the stones leave, so this may lead to a fine stone cutting a little rougher.

3) While it's no biggie, the fact the japanese bevel, post grind, is hard steel and soft iron, mean the iron high point wear away quickly which means the sharpening experience is a little like freehand, and the edge angle will probably change a little, while O1 etc... one would have two hard index point for the hand sharpening.

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

thomd

>Good for you. I believe it's worth doing, maybe I can get around to it someday. I mean I have some natural stones. But I have a huge overweight of tools to stones, the chance of a perfect match is probably there for something.

I did a big bike tour last year, and while ti took me about 9 months post tour to discover it, I now am comfortable on my knees for the first time is decades. I intend to spend more time over the winter, sharpening, and I will seee where it all comes out.

Comments and observations

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>First, contrary to one poster's claim, I do not see the Japanese tool phenomenon as so much BS. I've taken a serious liking to the first Japanese chisels I've tried, and I want to try what the best feels like. Like western chisels, there are a number of makers out there and to the uninitiated the array of offerings is confusing. I've also come to prefer Japanese saws because I think the design makes more sense in my view, enough so that I will be parting with my western saws eventually (anyone looking for a LN dovetail saw?).

The planes, I have little interest in. Too fussy in my opinion, but some people who put the required amount of time to learn their intricacies do indeed get great results.

Now to the sharpening. I was glad to read that I can use my sharpening regimen and get good results. A number of private communications reinforced that.

As I stated at the top of this thread, it's the sharpening part that I consider to be hype. When it comes to having a certain stone mined from a specific strata to match a specific chisel (or plane blade) made by a specific balcksmith, I tune way out. I can see that some people find it entertaining, but personally I prefer woodworking.

And I don't buy that the absolute edge comes from natural stones. 200 years ago that was probably the case, but I can't believe that one can't get better results with the array of man-made abrasives available to us today. Where the hype kicks in is when someone claims that this natural stone gives the best edge, and we're supposed to take him/her at their word. Feels too much like an infomercial to me... Nowhere is there demonstrated evidence that this is the case. I'd like to see a Steve Elliott type of study on natural vs. man-made stones vs. other methods (paper, diamond, etc.). Frank's results are somewhat baffling, this should be investigated further.

Thanks to all who replied, this has been a very interesting thread. I've probably ruffled some feathers along the way, apologies for that.

DC