Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating part

Country boy sez...

jim reed @ tallahassee

>while I do not have any Japanese chisels, I do have a box of Japanese planes. Those blades sharpen up quite nicely using SILICON CARBIDE sandpaper. Ninja warriers may disagree and insist on holy stones gathered in the moonlight, but steel is steel and as such is no match for SC.

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Hank Knight from SC

>Denis,

I use my Nortons up to 8,000. They work fine. I have been encouraged to buy a very fine and very expensive natural japanese stone to get the best edge possible on my Japanese chisels, but I'm happy with the Nortons. I may be missing something, but I don't know what it is. Ignorance is bliss. :-)

Maybe you should just unplunge yourself

woodburnbob

>I have pretty strong "simplicity movement" sentiments, despite my current life style and how I spend money...but I am gradually reforming myself. I share your reaction to the prices, cachet and hype in the back-to-basics Japanese handtool niche.

Thinking about your post, I have this observation: My wife has been taking Vanity Fair for a few years. She tells me she takes it for the non-fiction, current events articles...which is not unlike what I said when in my 20s I was caught looking at Playboy.

If you flip through Vanity Fair front to back, what you actually see is a pictorial bazaar of terminal opulence, extravagance and pretension. Fashionable clothes and accessories, jewelry, cosmetics, luxury automobiles and everything under the sun that would interest the idle and bloated nobility of the world.

$750. Pearl hat pins from the Orient or natural sharpening stones from Japan, not much difference?

Well, I'm off to mess with an incannel gouge and $2 slip-stone off Ebay.

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Wiley Horne

>Hi Denis,

Use what you've got right now, and 8000g is just fine. If the steel is super blue steel, I would add some fine print, but otherwise you're good with the stones you have. The expensive chisels should be easy to flatten. In regard to diamond media, it does make deep scratches in very hard steel, but those scratches will lap out. As you said, Japanese steel is clean, and will respond well to your everyday methods.

Wiley

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

wilbur

>I bought a set of Shaptons (1000, 5000, 8000) but then I was starting from scratch. Having sharpened some beat up Japanese plane blades using wet-dry sandpaper I would agree that if you have a sharpening system going, there's no need to switch midstream.

I would recommend that whatever you use, be sure to keep the sharpening tool (waterstone/sandpaper) as flat as possible. Many people hollow grind western style chisels, which should not be done with a Japanese chisel. If your stone is a little out of flat when sharpening a hollow ground western chisel, it's probably not that big a deal. But since the entire bevel side of a Japanese chisel is designed to be flat, making sure that your sharpening surface is flat becomes more important.

One other thing I was told, but don't know how true this is, is that natural Japanese waterstones will leave less of a mirror finish on the blade, so that the lamination line between the hard and soft steel layers is more prominent. With man made waterstones, the mirror polish tends to obscure the lamination line. This seems to be true with my Imai chisels and the Shapton stones I have. Have you noticed anything similar with your Japanese chisels and your LV/Norton waterstones?

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>"One other thing I was told, but don't know how true this is, is that natural Japanese waterstones will leave less of a mirror finish on the blade, so that the lamination line between the hard and soft steel layers is more prominent. With man made waterstones, the mirror polish tends to obscure the lamination line. This seems to be true with my Imai chisels and the Shapton stones I have. Have you noticed anything similar with your Japanese chisels and your LV/Norton waterstones?"

That I can't answer, because I've used a secondary bevel that doesn't go up to the lamination line. I know, I know, I'm not supposed to do that, but the chisels don't seem to mind so far...

I'll get a coarse stone to flatten the bevel tomorrow...

DC

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Wilbur,

A friend of mine did some tests (very limited--not too scientific) with an 8000 synthetic water stone (King I believe, although I forget exactly) and a Honyama natural stone, and the Honyama gave a cloudy (frosty) surface, apparently less polished than the waterstone, but it also gave a sharper edge (as observed with an Intel microsocope).

Oh yeah, done on Matsumura chisels

Frank D. in Montreal

>

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

thomd

>Harelson imports Shapton stones. He also has a huge sharpening station with an impressiver aray of natural stones, to whatever end.

You can sharpen any Japanese chisel with an 8000 king, and arguably for the next few years of your apprenticeship you probably won't see much difference.

You can look at the Japanese tools phenom as just so much BS, but any time i have stepped deeper into the pool I have seen real results. I have made some strides in improving my abilities over the last few years, but I accept that I am not going to ever get it without being part of the tradition. To me though, the tradition of steel and sharpening is far too broad to be dismissed as BS just because one doesn't have the current ability to measure up. It's like the student who said he didn't like War and Peace, who received the answer "that tells us more about you than War and Peace". This is a very broad culture that includes their whole martial and craft culture that is renowned around the world. One is dismissing the Sword, the polisher, the cultlery trade, cooks learn to sharpen and people that process fish, etc... it's not just some claim on a newsgroup. That said, it's a claim that is difficult to verify on one's own.

I think the more telling point is whether it is necesarry to go there. Are we interested in woodworking or Japanese tools. Is it necesarry to have a fortune in stones to be a good hand tool woodworker, clearly not. But if you want to progress in Japanese tools that's a different thing.

I have some natural stones, but not really enough to be able to say anything about it. The point though about the stones isn't that they are required to cut this simple steel like needing a green wheel to cut carbide. The analogy is probably closer to trying to match a plane configuration to a wood type. Spending big dollars on stones won't do it, you really need to be able to test these stones, and you need to be good enough at sharpening for your progression to be meaningful. We have probably all had the experience of sharpening and not improving an edge, due to inconsistant technique. One can't get beyond a certain grit size without better technique, and while jigs are a partial answer, they create problems of their own. To be the kind of sharpener who uses a jig and only a smal portion of a stone that cost thousands just doesn't make sense to me. So I am not convinced I would benefit from stepping up to a higher quality of stone, because i can't get them on trial and am not yet good enough to shake out the results, despite 20 years of sharpening on my knees on the floor.

One other thing, part of the answer is surely that if somewhere during the first week of owning these masterpiece tools decides to write another check for some more tools different handles, flashy grinds, custom made, signed by the maker etc... On the other extreme someone, else gets some working tools and plows some dough into some stones, and modestly sets out to prove the master right. Like Ben Hogan, tried to dig the secrets of the swing out of the earth. Which gets there and which one doesn't? Now if I could just take that advice on a more regular basis.

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Isn't that contradictory? My understanding is that the sharper the edge the more polished the bevel should be...

Me confused...

DC

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Frank D. in Montreal

>Yup,

Contradictory but I've seen it confirmed by several credible sources. Actually kind of reassuring...if everything were so simple someone would write a book that we would all just read then and go practice alone in our shops.

We've had the same kind of discussion about the Norton 8000 leaving a frosty surface on A-2 with apparently no difference in sharpness.

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Murph

>Soooo I'm hearing that I can't use the Tormek or look alike on my Matsumura's? Mmmm but it sure puts a nice edge on the wifes knives. Any other opinions?

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

mikew

>The hollow produced by the Tormek is not enough to worry about in general.

If you think about the arc and the thickness of the chisel, the radius on the bevel is so tiny. A little honing on flat stones to finish removes much of the hollow anyway.

Take care, Mike

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Funny, A2 on my Norton comes off shiny as a mirror...

What A2 were you using? LN cryo A2? Then it's no wonder, you need to let the blade come back to room temperature :-)

DC

I put a hollow grind on a Japanese blade

jim reed @ tallahassee

>and the world did not stop revolving on its axis. Hollow grinding reduces the bevel angle at the cutting edge. The amount of the reduction depends on the arc (size) of the wheel. You can take this angle reduction into account and INCREASE the hollow grind bevel angle to make everything come out the same. It is pretty simple math. I do not agree with those who slavishly follow the rule of NO HOLLOW GRIND ON JAPANESE TOOLS as I have done it successfully many times.

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Vijay

>I just watched an episode of Woodworks by David Marks. He shows how he sharpens japanese chisels. He uses a hand crank grinder to create the hollow bevel. The uses a 800 (maybe a 1200) water stone, then a 4000 and then a 6000.

Thats it. He doesnt talk about a Nagura on a 6000 (That may be an oversight or just edited out). Enough said.

Vijay

Matte vs. Mirror Finish

Hank Knight from SC

>The abrasive particles in Japanese natural stones, while very, very small, are of random size and shape. Consequently they leave random sized and shaped scratches in the steel. These random scratches reflect light at random angles and the result is a matte (as opposed to a shiny or "mirror") reflection off the polished surface.

Man made stones like Nortons and Kings are made of particles of uniform size and shape held together by a bonding agent. They leave a much more consistent scratch pattern which reflects light in a consistent way off the polished surface. The result is a "mirror" finish. One would think that an edge honed to a mirror finish would be superior to a matte finished edge, but the keenness of an edge is determined by the size of the microscopic serrations left by the abrasive (all edges are serrated at the microscopic level). The edge from a 30K grit natural stone is sharper than the edge left by an 8K Norton, even though the Norton stone leaves a mirror finish and the Japanese stone leaves a matte finish.

I just finished a course at the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship taught by Craig Stevens. Craig is an advocate for Japanese tools and sharpening methods and has studied the techniques in Japan under the pros. He contends that natural stones leave a better edge than man made stones of the same or similar grit because of the randomness of the particles in the natural stones. He also says that Japanese craftsmen laugh at our western idea of a "polished" edge and believe that the only really sharp edge is a matte finisned edge from a natural stone.

All of that may very well be true, but I'm with ThomD. My 8,000 grit Nortons get my Matsumuras and Imais plenty sharp for what I need. While, I don't think the esoterica of Japanese sharpening methods is BS by any means, I do believe it is a culture, a tradition and a discipline all to itself. One that I might enjoy, but there's only so much time and I'd rather spend it woodworking with tools sharp enough for my purposes - even if they're not as sharp as they could be.

Hank

Enough said?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Do you intend to say that David Marks is the gospel on Japanese tools?

Pam

Re: Sharpening Japanese chisels - the irritating p

Dave Burnard

>Chisel sharpening? These days I use my man made middle and finish stones, unless I'm sharpening a paring chisel for the absolute best edge I can make. If I'm going to whack the chisel with a hammer I haven't seen that which stones I use makes much practical difference.

I like to think back to the first US Kezurou Kai (thin shaving contest) which was won by a professional japanese carpenter living in Northern California. He was using a modest plane, and for sharpening he used a 1000 grit King stone and a 6000 grit King S-3. He has much nicer stones but didn't want to travel with them. That's about the most basic stone set you can have, but he was able to get some pretty amazing results from those stones. Once again developing the skills is more important than having the best tools. Rats! ;)

Natural stones are a slippery slope, and an enjoyable one. It's very interesting to see how different irons and steels react to different stones. You'll get a lot of insight into what a sword polisher actually does to enhance or modify the appearance of the hamon on a sword. Unfortunately there are so many varieties, good for different tasks or tools, etc. Can't possibly own, let alone use, everything.

Similar variation exists between man-made stones. If you line up the 20 or so 8000 grit man made stones the differences are surprising. Hard, soft, fast, slow etc.

Re: Paring chisels for best edge

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You're not playing fairly, Dave, got to tell us what you use when sharpening a paring chisel for best edge. And while I disagree in theory about whacked chisels, the pragmatic I agrees that it doesn't seem to make much difference as long as they're not very slow whacks. (Hey, maybe I, too, can be a politician! :))

I've been accumulating natural stones for the last couple of years (it takes a while when depending on ebay, due to my inability to write all that many $500-$1,000 checks that don't bounce), largely encouraged by LV and their bargain natural stones, as well as by a statement Jim Blauvelt made on the Hiraide forum. To wit, sometimes he got the best edge by finishing with a softer stone after using a very hard stone.

Also, in this acquisition process a couple or three Japanese stone sellers have said that they recommend relatively soft stones for beginners. I truly don't understand why it would make a difference whether you are a beginner. Perhaps success is more likely and, therefore, encouraging? Perhaps it takes so long on a hard stone that it would be discouraging? Perhaps real damage can be done with a hard stone? Whatever the reason, and I do believe they have rational reasons for saying this, I interpreted their statements to imply that you could get steel sharp with soft and/or hard natural stones. Can you elucidate?

Thanks,

Pam

Re: Enough said?

mikew

>Pam, I didn't take Vijay's short post as anything but that X method is what Marks uses.

Is there something wrong what that method? What? Why?

An assumption here, but I think Marks is a saavy enough worker that if his method didn't work, he would alter how he does things. Do you disagree?

Take care, Mike

Re: Enough said?

Vijay

>No all I meant to say was that David Marks, who is a master by my standards (may not be by your standards), uses this method and gets very good results as he illustrates in the show.

I do not have an opinion on Japanese chisels as I don't own any. I do however share the same skepticism as the O.P regarding the high level of mysticism and dollars spent on sharpening stones. But while it is not for me, nor would I recommend it for a newbie, every person can and should decide for themselves what stones to buy.

Vijay

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Do you intend to say that David Marks is the gospel on Japanese tools?

Pam

Re: I put a hollow grind on a Japanese blade

Dave Burnard

>It won't hurt the chisel any, unless it has a soul. ;)

Re: Enough said?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't know Marks' work all that well, have seen a couple of his articles in which there is, IIRC, an awful lot of what I'll call more casual joinery. Saying "enough said" is normally used as a closer, end of discussion, nothing more need be said, etc. I take it your experience is different?

Maybe Vijay didn't intend to say that, which was why I asked rather than reacting based on my interpretation. However, I will react to your interpretation.

Marks may be a saavy worker, but I wouldn't be comfortable with someone whose advice is to hollow grind Japanese chisels and top out at 6000 on a man made water stone (natural stones aren't graded that way). The problem for people who bravely put themselves out there as experts/teachers is that often they are of only midlevel, or even beginner, experience in some areas; but we, the watchers, are sitting there thinking they know it all. That's not fair to anyone, and meanwhile, lots of bad/not-the-best advice is propagated, without the intent of the teacher.

As to what's wrong with said advice, I think that Japanese edges are intended to have soft iron as the tool steel backer. That is, the blacksmiths intend to forge the blades they way they do, that it's not some accident and that there's a rational reason for doing so. Hollow grinding removes a good part of that mating and allows the cutting force to be redirected to the air. The problem is that this works, at least to an extent. Your chisels will still cut, as do many western chisels made only of tool steel; however, many here think more highly of the laminated western chisels, too.

Also, the hollow grinding facilitates sharpening only the tool steel, thus furthering the mating destruction. I like the way laminated tools move through wood. I don't know enough to say why this mating seems better. My guess is that the soft cushion allows the hard steel to bounce as it cuts without passing any jarring on to the shaft and, therefore, the cutter's hand. So for me to willingly destroy this mating would seem presumptuous and possibly self-destructive.

More in a response to Thom above as soon as I finish it.

Pam