Workbench design III

Re: some links to comparitive numbers

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>Here are some measurements done by the USDA Forest Products Lab Center for Wood Anatomy Research. Google finds these for me if I use the genus name and "strength" as search parameters.

Of course, hardness is important for all woods that will suffer impact stresses.

The other important property for bench tops is parallel compression.

For chisel handles and mallets which strike with the end grain, perpendicular compression and shear are important.

For mallets which strike with side grain, parallel compression is important. Shear is also important if what you are striking with it is very hard or has sharp corners.

For Hophornbeam: http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/Techsheets/HardwoodNA/htmlDocs/ostrya.html

For hornbeam: http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/HardwoodNA/htmlDocs/carpin1.html

For several species of maple: http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/HardwoodNA/htmlDocs/acersp1.html

for American beech: http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/HardwoodNA/htmlDocs/fagus1.html

I can't find any numbers for European red beech.

Re: grain orientation

ThomD


>Flatsawing wood does produce both riff and quaretered wood.

I guess one thing is that my preference far an away would have been to use solid pices say 3"x9". In that case the chance of pure quartered pieces is pretty low these days. So I supose if your boards are flatsawn at the end of the laminating process that wouldn't be a tragedy either and would look better in some respects. It's just when you ask the question quartered seems a better answer..

Thanks

Dave Thompson


>Excellent web site. I had spent a good deal of time searching on the web before I resorted to buying USDA FPL publications. Ofcourse my search keys were different and didn't come up with this. Thanks for looking it up again and sharing William.

Dave

Vises against holdfasts

Dirk Vogel


>Hi Joel !

"I can't for the life of me think of any situation where two or more tail vices are useful. even a giant board only has to be clamped by one vice to stay solid."

Well, books and internet are full with photos of a situation like the one you can see below. You can do what's shown there with one-screw metal hardware, a metal twin vise or two wooden screws, one behind every dog, how you state a little further. That's where my tail vise(s) come in.

"I don't buy the idea that you can work on mulitple parts of a project"

Indeed that was never the purpose.

"I also don't understand the double vice - they wrack"

Well, up to now I was told the contrary (e. g. Schleining, p. 73 : "Vises with two screws have been around for centuries. Since there are no guide bars, the vise is not subject to wracking.")

"and for dovetailing any work much narrower than the vice they are a pain to adjust and clamp solidly."

That's a good advise ! So I'm going to have three different panels for my twin vise, and drill three nuts in the bench. That way, I can adjust the vise to the dimensions of my workpiece.

"And of course holdfasts in the side of the apron are a tried and true method."

This I want to try out, too. There'll be those holes in the apron side.

Furthermore, I understand your experience wih vises and holdfasts, and that's why I'd like to try the same things out. I'll let you know if I like more the holdfast or the vise working style !

Holdfasts and dogs in the same holes ?

Dirk Vogel


>Thank you very much for your detailed description of what kind of dogs you use and in what situation ! This kind of information is very useful for me ! Tell me, since you seem to use the same holes for dogs and holdfasts : don't you agree that in doing so, holdfasts will eventually distort the hole enough to affect the dogs ?

Adjacent vise handles

Dirk Vogel


>Thank you for your criticism. I thought about that problem, too, but Thom here gave me an example with three handles on the small bench side, and as he's an expert, I presumed there must be a way to handle the little distances ... Thom, do you remember ? I'll post your drawing again ... How did you think to get rid of the handle problem ?

Re: Holdfasts and dogs in the same holes ?

Joel


>After years - no distortion if any (soft maple top on one bench rock maple on other)

Re: Vises against holdfasts

Joel


>Well, books and internet are full with photos of a situation like the one you can see below. You can do what's shown there with one-screw metal hardware, a metal twin vise or two wooden screws, one behind every dog, how you state a little further. That's where my tail vise(s) come in.

- maybe but not historical and not in actual benches used in profession shops from the last century. Hasluck (c. 1905) which is the best book from the early last century on workshop furniture for amturues doens't mention it either. It's a modern thing and an uncessicary complexity at best. Areal tail vice is bette thana sliding stop by a lot and once you have one of those you dodn't need a sliding stop.

"I also don't understand the double vice - they wrack"

Well, up to now I was told the contrary (e. g. Schleining, p. 73 : "Vises with two screws have been around for centuries. Since there are no guide bars, the vise is not subject to wracking.")

Again - you don't see them in actual historical material or in actual historical benches. For the odd special purpose vise possibly. (The Landis book BTW is a far far better book) Certainly they are the exception not the rule to standard European style or English or American Style benches. If they contributed to production don't you think they would be more popular?

That's a good advise ! So I'm going to have three different panels for my twin vise, and drill three nuts in the bench. That way, I can adjust the vise to the dimensions of my workpiece.

By the time you have found the extra panel, unscreed the vice, put it back together, and adjusted the work, I have clamped my board in my tail vise and am long done.

Experiment away - it's your bench and you should have fun with it. But remember to a large extent you are trying to reinvent the wheel and of course making building the bench a much more complicated project than it has to be for at best marginal advantage.

Re: Holdfasts and dogs in the same holes ?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>I haven't seen any problems here either, in red oak and hard maple. Termite barf is another story. My round dogs with the square heads are quite forgiving, and don't have any problems with oversized or distorted holes, or even with holes that are drilled out of plumb.

With regard to drilling holes out of plumb, I have found that it is a lot easier to get the dog holes perpendicular to the surface if I make them on the drill press before I glue the top together, than to try to get the drill bit to go in the direction I want it to while standing on top of a finished bench. Planning ahead for sufficient and correctly located dog holes is very important. Also, if the bottom of the dog hole is blocked by hardware for a subsequently installed vise, it becomes useless, for two reasons. Either you can't get the dog out by pushing it up from the bottom, or it fills up with shavings. You're better off plugging it and starting over than just leaving it open in the bench top.

Re: Holdfasts and dogs in the same holes ?

joel -( tools for working wood)


>" Either you can't get the dog out by pushing it up from the bottom, or it fills up with shavings. You're better off plugging it and starting over than just leaving it open in the bench top."

THere is a simple solution to when a hole such as you describe fills up with shavings. (like on my bench) I just stick the end of the air compessor hose in the hole and hit the trigger. a fraction of a second later, the hole is clean, the shavings, sawdust, and splinters are convinently lodged in my eyes for quick removal by a medial professional. It's an expensive way of doing it, but I can tell you from experience - IT works.

Re: Vises against holdfasts

ThomD


>I don't have double vises on any of my benches, but I can see situations when it might be useful:

- the round object is often shown, and this can be a number of irregular surfaces. It certainly can happen when working with waney edges, or rough ends that more would be better. If one does all the prep work on machines, that is one thing, but if one work truly by hand, one might do some rough work in preparation when one can't even see the board fully, and it might be an advantage to work the board before it is trimmed into nice square easily held ends.

- This one should appeal to Joel if not Dirk, the guy who buy all the infils and Japanese planes on offer and prefers to work on one side by pull and the other by push. Sure you can push into the vise, though it seems less desireable.

- I agree most squared up work can be held with one set of dogs, that's how I do it, and if one has two rows, one can support the push with two dogs and just get the bite with one, however, one is always hearing the no vise guys going on about how tail vise use bend boards out of flat, to which multiple light grips where available would be of some help.

- with extremely light work one can hold sides in turn and reduce the risk of running into dogs, which even if they are wood, is not something I want to do.

- With hand planing guitar tops, one can set a stick to the same length as the board, and place it off-center in the right dogs along with the top. Then plane the left side, the switch it to the left dogs...

While I just have the one vise it's full width at the end, so I do get to use some of these features.

I can't see a lot of reason for building the complexity, but if I had it it might be useful.

Re: No problem

ThomD


>There are two problems.

One is hitting your knuckles/other handles, and the other is fouling the wall the bench sits against.

My bench is 24 inches wide. and I do have some knuckle banging problems and wall problems.

- In the picture shown we are working with your 39 inch size. so you have 13 inches of width plus overhang for each handle. No problem.

- You have also told us your bench is going to be away from a wall like an island, and will not be crowded, so no wall problem.

Another option is smaller than standard handles. Individual handles as opposed to the double chain drive handles on my vise will be easy to turn if you build them right and how wide do the handles need to be? Particularly considering all the issues around overclamping, the scourge of all tail vises apaprently.

Also, you are cutting your own threads which will give you the option of making your screws end on the horizontal or vertical handle orientation. Work it out to give you maximum clearance, if that seems important. It's also an aesthetic detail like fitting shotgun screws so the head slots are aligned. Let's say the middle one gets used the least, set it so the handle rests in the vertical position, bingo you have a lot of clearance with the other handles.

So I think it is an important point but the details of your bench give you some specific workarounds.

I'm no expert, just a serial bench builder.

Re: Hand tool content :^)

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>That works for me too, except I use a lung-powered straw, instead of a compressor, and I have to remember to close my eyes before emphatically exhaling, so the dust doesn't get in my eyes. (Safety glasses aren't much help for this operation.)

Re: No problem

ThomD


>Also, I should possibly note that i am not pushing three tail vises. An earlier iteration of the design used what looked like a largely unbuildable vise that wrapped the whole end of the bench, but had the characteristic of providing tail vises on both sides and a wide vise on the end. from that desire I suggested a more functional option with such a wide bench might be the kind of setup shown. And things have moved on since.

Tail vise handles

Dirk Vogel


>Hi Thom ! Thanks for your unfailing assistance. I knew I could bank on you :-)

"In the picture shown we are working with your 39 inch size"

Well, this was a little misunderstanding, as I only fantasized once about having a twin screwed tail vise of that dimensions, but now I learned that I'll have to set a wooden screw lined up with a doghole row if I want the vise to move a doghole in its jaw without wracking. Normally my benchtop drawings turned around 32". My last projects constitute a 33" benchtop. Distances between tail vise screws are 9 1/2" and 15 1/2" (gap only). So the narrower distance is indeed not that big now ...

"Another option is smaller than standard handles."

That was my idea, too. 9" of handle must suffice for a screw.

"Also, you are cutting your own threads which will give you the option of making your screws end on the horizontal or vertical handle orientation."

Good idea ! I thought only that eventually one could lengthen the middle screw thread and drill the hole for its handle farer away from the benchtop edge than the others. That way, handles cannot disturb itselves, but maybe a bigger protuberance is inconvenient, even at the small end of a bench ...

"I'm no expert, just a serial bench builder."

In my opinion, that makes you an expert :-)

Big shelf

Dirk Vogel


>Hi Joel ! Understand me right : It's not about giving a battle here, I only want to understand certain things.

"Areal tail vice is better than a sliding stop by a lot and once you have one of those you dodn't need a sliding stop."

By an "areal tail vise" you mean the twin end vise that covers all the space of a bench's small side ? Yeah, if using (other) metal vises was an option in my project, I'd have bought the Veritas Twin Vise weeks ago, they seem to do a good job. And "sliding stop" would be my incorporated tail vise ?

"you are trying to reinvent the wheel and of course making building the bench a much more complicated project than it has to be for at best marginal advantage."

Well, I imagine how to work on a big shelf, for instance (30" x 25"). Look at the drawing A. With one row of dogholes, you could get the shelf fixed in its middle, but working on it in this position would be awkward, wouldn't it ? So you may prefer to put the shelf like shown in drawing B. But then, the shelf is put under pressure at one of its corners. I cannot imagine that this does any good to the shelf or to its stability on the benchtop ... Am I mistaken there ? Please tell me.

100 acres of red oak

Dirk Vogel


>Thom, I'd like to ask you a question that you may not want to answer in public, if ever; could you please tell me your email address ? The coralseacat doesn't seem to work ...

Re: Big shelf

Joel


>By a real tail vise I mean a classic European "L" shaped vise that opens a knee holw in the bench for clamping chair legs and as I mentioned before provides a perfect clamp for dovetail - blind ones especially in the way Tage FRid does his. A tail vise also has multiple dog holes in it so long or short boards can be supported with a mimiumim of opening.

THe Veritas twin vise isn't a tail vise - which is why we call it a twin vise. It has none of the features of a tail vise. and as I have said before I don't think much of twin vises at all (although the Veritas is certainly the best of the lot by far)

I would clamp the shelf shown as in "B" WIth the entire shelf supported on the bench top. Clamping in one side effects nothing and is the way to go. IF the shelf material is too thin and flexes under the clamp it is too thin to be clamped like that no matter where the vise contacts the wood. and in general you try to use mimium clamping pressure anyway (just enough so the work does not move).

Re: Big shelf

Dirk Vogel


>Thanks for this information, Joel ! If indeed drawing B is the way to go (something that seemed absurde to me because of may lack of experience), I can understand now why you think three tail vises are a bit exaggerated :-)

"A tail vise also has multiple dog holes in it so long or short boards can be supported with a mimiumim of opening."

Well, this works well apparently with metal screws only. I was convinced in this forum three weeks ago that a wooden screw has to be in line with the doghole it's moving, so a tailvise with several dog holes (laying next to the screw) unfortunatedly is not an option for me.

Re: Big shelf

Joel


>my tailvise has a line of hole in all in line with the screw one further back from the opening than the other. This works - Look at the Landis book - they have plans - I didn't invent or dream up any of this. MY bench is a lefthanded copy of the Klausz bench except with a metal face vise. You can clamp from a couple inches long to 8 feet with no trouble.

you had a vice with three holes next to each other - which won't work.

joel

Re: Big shelf

Joel


>Dirk,

I also suggest if the way you are designing the bench is putting a design out there are seeing the comments - and of course you mention your inexperience, it suggests that you should drop all the ocmplexity, and build a simple classic bench based on existing designs. Like other have suggested - do it simple, cheap, and in a few years you might figure out how to make one better. I didn't know squat about anything when I build my bench - but since I copied FRank Klausz's I got the benifit of all his wisdom, all his thinking, the entire tradition of European benches - and in 20 years the only improvements I can think of is more holdfast holes, and adjusting the mechanism on the tail vise - which I have been meaning to do for 20 years.

Re: Big shelf

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>adjusting the mechanism on the tail vise

I'm sure you mentioned this before, but I missed it. How, in what way, for waht reason, would you want to adjust the mechanism?

Thanks,

Pam

Re: Big shelf

joel -( tools for working wood)


>I didn't install it perfectly parrelle with the bench top so the tail vise doesn't track perfectly - nothing that about 2 hours and some shims won't cure - but you know how it is. After I finished the bench I figured I would use it a little before taking the tail vise apart. I'm sure I'll get to it soon.

joel

:)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

Now I get a doubt ...

Dirk Vogel


>... about the type of tail vise one cannot build with wooden screws. I posted several tail vise constructions that I was told not to try with wooden screws, because they would wrack. Does this apply also to the following design ? I think so, but I'm not sure any more ...