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First Hand Plane?

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Re: First Hand Plane?

#51

Re: learning

Mike L (Orange County, CA)

>Sorry Moses but I don't have the gall to disagree with your post. As a matter of fact, I think yours is the only post that addressed the original question (whether or not your response was valid is, of course, subject to opinion). The original poster stated that he wanted to "learn how to hand plane". How he eventually intends to use handplanes is not really pertinent. His immediate need is get a feel for using a plane. He can decide where to go from there.

Regards,

Mike

Re: First Hand Plane?

#52

agreed

bill tindall

>one should make sure one correctly remembers that which he is responding to before putting foot in mouth.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#53

they were carpenters building houses

bill tindall

>A #5 is nice for hanging doors and it fits in the tool box easier than a 6.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#54

Re: D�j� Vu All Over Again

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I hope everyone realizes that my first response in this thread included a lot of tongue-in-cheek arguments, and was a bit theatrical, to say the least. I think there is no clear, simple answer, nor even one complicated answer. And even most of our "good" answers can be flummoxed by a small, fine point about the questioner's situation of which we are totally unaware.

What I do know is that both bevel up and bevel down planes, metal and wooden planes, old and new planes, and Occidental and Oriental planes can be made to work successfully by the neophyte, with just a little of the right kind of encouragement.

Still, a bit of flamboyance to stir up some discussion for Mr. Jackson on a subject we might otherwise be getting a bit tired of is better than, "Go away. Don't bother us. The answer to your question is forty-two."

If you are looking for tough plane questions in tough situations, you might take into consideration my state of mind when I saw Charles' question and a few responses yesterday evening. An associate, an ex-paratrooper and woodworker who does not use handplanes, wanted to know which plane to buy first, to solve a particular problem he has: cleaning up panels raised with a router. That made me an hour late leaving work, none of the extra time on the clock, while I explained the uses, features, advantages and disadvantages of three glass cases full of planes, everything from the Kunz #75, new Groz and Stanley bench planes, through the Stanley #92 (on sale) and #93, three different Clifton shoulder planes, to about thirty models of L-Ns: bevel down, bevel up, low angle, high angle and scrapers, skew, side and jack rabbet, shoulder, with and without nickers, with and without fences, with and without depth stops, left handed, right handed and ambidextrous, tilting handle, flat bottom, curved bottom. The only thing that kept me from descending into complete, babbling lunacy by the end of it was that (for some reason beyond my comprehension) we don't also carry Veritas planes. In the end, after an in-depth discussion, with lots of spectators who don't know hand planes much better than he does, he made up his own mind, we gave all the planes a wipe down with camelia oil, locked them up and put them away. He rung up his purchase, and I started the 45 minute drive home.

The first half of the trip is 4 lanes in each direction, everyone else out there was more than ready for a three or four day holiday. After two weeks of stop and crawl across the bridge, the construction was no where to be seen, and everyone put the pedal to the metal, heading for the Jersey Shore. I pulled off the Turnpike at Exit 2, looking forward to a relaxing drive through rural West Jersey marshes, farms and woods, when my rear view mirror was suddenly filled with the grill of the truck from Spielberg's Duel. After a few miles of this harassment, I turned off on a farm road with a weight restriction, and he continued on down the main highway. On the back of his trailer was stenciled "SHIMP 235". I thought about writing it down, but then realized there was no need. That was our P. O. Box number, and I recognized that name.

Finally at home, I washed down two Naproxen with a Sierra Nevada, poured a double shot of Captain Morgan into a leaded crystal old fashioned glass, signed on and clicked on the WoodCentral Hand Tool forum, where "First Hand Plane?", "Here We Go Again" and "I've Seen This Movie Before" just pushed me over the edge.

This afternoon, on the way home from the local farmer's market, with some fresh apples and vegetables to encourage me to plant the apple trees I had bought there a couple weeks ago, I crested a hill approaching a local tree nursery, one of many, when d�j� vu struck. A semi pulling a flat bed full of newly dug and balled apple trees pulled out of the Shimp yard at the top of the next hill and headed my way. I started breathing again when it got close enough that I could see it wasn't the same color. Yesterday's trailer was no where to be seen, but the tractor was parked right beside the road. I decided that stopping in at the office and complaining would not be prudent, and no one leaned out of the cab to wave me past.

BTW, the Captain chose the L-N 60-1/2R. Do y'all think that was the right decision?

Re: First Hand Plane?

#55

Re: they were carpenters building houses

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Certainly true. My sons first purchase after he and his wife bought a house was a pickup truck load of 6 panel doors to replace the dreck that the house was built with. I ,of course, was drafted to hang them. The type 13 #5 I threw in the road kit was appreciated very soon:-)JR

Re: First Hand Plane?

#56

Re: D�j� Vu All Over Again

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Nice post Sir Will. I enjoyed reading the first one too :-)

I think the Captain did just fine. But he could have picked a L-N # anything and gotten his moneys worth. My L-N 60.5 is my most used plane bar none.JR

Re: First Hand Plane?

#57

Re: D�j� Vu All Over Again

Wiley Horne

>He shoulda got an LN073 (or the LV equivalent large shoulder) for the panel cleanup. IMO. Life is long, though, he'll be back. What kind of apple trees are you going to plant?

Wiley .... who appreciates Sir Wm's. rants, tongue-in-cheek and the regular garden variety PO'ed kind.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#58

warning, philosophical discussion to follow...

bill tindall

>I am highly motivated to build stuff. For most of my life it was stuff I needed- first a 2 x 4 couch and a 4 x 4 bed, coffee table, house (actually 2 houses), kitchen cabinets, furniture for house(s), toys for kids. I never had a favorable experience with hand tools (I see now because I didn't know how to sharpen them or even know what "sharp" was.) With the skills I had and the time I had to practice them, power tools enabled me to make a lot of good and useful stuff. Among my friends and acquaintences, some of whom build heirloon quality furniture, my power oriented techniques were "normal".

A trip to College of Redwoods 3, or was it 4, years ago was a life altering experience. There I saw students deftly fitting things to unthinkable precision with hand tools and doing it quicker than I could by nibbling with the table saw or chop saw, files, and sand paper. I made a wooden block plane, a short! bench plane, and learned to sharpen them, as well as my chisels.

About this time I discovered through Badger Pond that there were a few people like you all that only use hand tools. It was like discovering a dinosaur in my garden. I could scarcely believe it. I had never imagined that there could be such a person or encountered such a person (and still haven't in the flesh). After mastering smoothing miter and M&T joints (machine cut) and some other handy fitting operations I thought I might try may hand at replacing some machine techniques with hand tool techniques.

I am a person of average hand skills. I might have a need to make M&T joints, or dovetail joints 2-3 times a year at the rate I build stuff. I soon discovered that it was very hard to obtain and maintain any proficiency for these hand tool operations. The hand tool results often were not better or quicker. And I also soon discovered that it isn't cheap in time or $$ owning the tools necessary to do this work by hand. Little wonder that machines replaced this kind of hand tool work in most shops.

I now have the opportunity to build more what I would like to build rather than what I need. I have a near endless list of things I would like to build, each with increasing challenges in complexity of design and construction. I have settled, as have my friends and aquaintances, into using hand tools where they provide a better result or a quicker route to completion.

Straightening edges, and thicknessing lumber doesn't meet these criteria. I would put learning to do, and doing, these operations by hand behind building a pit saw and sawing my own lumber. Having tried these planing operations I am impressed with the skill and patience it must take, but I can't say I understand why any one would want to. That said, we need to be careful offering advice across the boundies of our vastly differing objectives. I will follow this advice by resuming avoidance of plane discussions less the point of my misplaced advice strike a planing enthusiast.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#59

are you sure about that?

Dave Thompson

>I used a #9 1/2 block on the old doors I've hung. I used a narrow Preston rabbet and a chisel on the new pre-framed ones, just to get the trim to stop squeeking on close.

Ofcourse, it's not my trade, but I've only ever used a #3 and my #9 1/2 for general carpentry work. My grandfather used a #3. A #3 fits better in a tool box than a #5 or #6. ;-)

Why would a #5 be prefered over a #3 for carpentry work (or #4 for that matter)? Seems to me they're all about equal in that use case.

Dave

Re: First Hand Plane?

#60

Re: warning, philosophical discussion to follow...

Paul Kierstead

>I have settled, as have my friends and aquaintances, into using hand tools where they provide a better result or a quicker route to completion.

I think this sentence is the revealing one. For some of us, the process is as important (or more important or perhaps somewhat important or ... ) as the result and as such we do not always follow the route which produces the best or fastest result. For me, I have little interest in optimizing my WW. Actually, in recent years I have tried more and more to avoid optimization in many parts of life. I invest as it pleases me, not for optimal results. I eat and prepare food to enjoy it, not for the quickest way. I take walks when I could drive and often delight in doing things perversely.

It is easy to lose sight of differing objectives.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#61

Re: warning, philosophical discussion to follow...

Dave Thompson

>That said, we need to be careful offering advice across the boundies of our vastly differing objectives. I will follow this advice by resuming avoidance of plane discussions less the point of my misplaced advice strike a planing enthusiast

Agreed, but what is the newbie who comes and asks, want to do with it? What's their motivation? These details are usually not there.

Thinking the same, one of the last planes I recommend is a smoother. First on my list are ones that best compliment power tool usage, like #073, #98c, #60 1/2. General usage, a #60 1/2 or #9 1/2 rank high on my list.

Telling a newbie to use a smoother instead of a ROS on their next qswo table top is just asking for a disaster. If they can avoid the inevitable tearout or chatter that a newbie will experience from not knowing the many details to prevent, then they will probably get nailed when they varnish it from not knowing to properly camber their blade edges prior to planing. Bench planes almost always require a bench... big investment for someone new to hand planes. Smoothing well requires more knowledge of how to use/tune a hand plane than any other hand plane operation. I don't think smoothing is a good place to start. On the other hand, if newbie buys a smoother, they can certainly use it for general non-smoothing operations...

enjoy,

Dave

Re: First Hand Plane?

#62

Re: D�j� Vu All Over Again

Marc in Luxembourg

>The 60 1/2 R was one of my 5 first hand planes. It is not only good for that job, but the Captain can put it in his pocket so it is handy to use everyday as a versatile magic maker in a machine shop, somewhat a time saver for adjustments.

Definitely the right choice. I think the Captain will come back soon and will have some other marvelous magic makers.

Marc

Re: First Hand Plane?

#63

Re: D�j� Vu All Over Again

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>A Stayman and a Granny Smith.

My next door neighbor kindly planted a Golden Delicious last year, so I shouldn't have any problems with pollenation. Hopefully the deer will eat his not mine, as I'm not fond of Delicious apples :^)

Re: First Hand Plane?

#64

Re: confirms my point.....

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I have read your philosophical discussion, and I understand your point of view. You have quite valid points. It is very important to understand where you are coming from and where you are trying to get to, at least as important as understanding the percieved path of those whose questions you are trying to answer.

I may be in your 1% bracket, because I find it very difficult to create a spring joint using a power jointer, and I think I can see a difference in the glue line created on a power jointer vs. one made by match planing with a finely tuned hand plane. Therefore, I use a #7 or #8 for this task, especially if it is a long joint.

However, the size of the job, and the experiences and even the size of the woodworker, strongly affects the optimum tools for the job. For small pieces of furniture, for exmple your spice chest, a #3 would be a much better choice for edge jointing. A #7, or even a #5, would be much too heavy and cumbersome to do it right.

If one needed to glue up a top for a large conference table, however, getting two fitting straight edges could be a lot easier with a #8, provided that one had the experience with this plane and the strength to handle it properly.

Small pieces of furniture, and small, delicate parts for larger pieces of furniture, are served best by smaller tools. As the pieces get larger, larger tools work can more efficiently. However, smaller tools, used with skill and patience, will do a better job than any tool that you are not familiar with, and not in complete control of.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#65

Sure beats "Body by Norm(tm)", or "Norm-Bo"

David Barnett - SW Florida

>

Re: First Hand Plane?

#66

You absolutely hit it,and dead center!

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>The FIRST thing a newbie needs is NOT a plane.What IS needed is a visit with a plane user who knows what he`s talking about.

That person should be able to ask the proper questions to find out what the new guy is after,what he wants the plane to do for him,now and in the future.He should also be able to effectively communicate the fact that a plane is only one component of a system that includes a means to sharpen that plane with a minimum of stress on the user.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here the most valuable tool in any kit is a mentor.

When asked what the best(fill in the blank) for a new handtool (or power tool,for that matter)user is I smile and either head for the shop,steer them toward the MWA(a local WWing club),or introduce them to someone I know who excells at the type of work they`re aiming at.

The trick is not making a decision,it`s making an INFORMED decision.That takes someone who really knows communicating the proper information for the particular task at hand.Sounds like you fit the bill nicely Sir William.

I would suggest we all take notice of the time and effort he had to invest in order to accomplish the task.

Mainely,Bob

Re: First Hand Plane?

#67

Ya gotta be careful with that, Bob...

David Barnett - SW Florida

>There's rumor of just such a handtool mentor making the rounds in Eastern PA. Apparently, he was 'hired' to answer this very same question: "which plane do I buy first", showed up at the client's house, tried to sell them an expensive starter plane (which looked like it'd been used to slice cheese) and then wouldn't leave. After an hour of high-pressure efforts to convince them that they needed a 'live-in' handtool instructor, they were able to lock the doors when he went to retrieve his toothbrush from the van which he parks along the Cohansey. Heard he was recently seen leaving a Woodcraft in the same area. Reasonably harmless, I suppose, but you never know what someone's apt to do when they're desperate.


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Re: First Hand Plane?

#68

ROTFLMAO!

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>Hey, that guy lives in the van next to mine down by the river.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#69

(NJ, too)

David Barnett - SW Florida

>

Re: First Hand Plane?

#70

Re: Normite Spies!

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Now, you've gone and blown my cover. You must have inside information, an impeachable offense, to my way of thinking. Who would'a thunk they'd'a recognized me with the greased back hair, black rimmed glasses, and necktie disguise. And I figgured that flannel pattern would only be seen on the most radial Nahmite. Are you sure that shiny thing doesn't have a power cord or a battery pack hidden somewhere?

On a totally different subject, but still related to power tools down by the river, I saw the most incogruous gizmo demonstrated, live, in Greenwich last weekend. It's a drill with a revolving turret and two chucks. Not a CNC milling machine, just a hand tool with a battery pack. It was demonstrated by the lady who is reputed to do the commercials for it on TV. I don't have TV on the Cohansey, so I cannot independently verify the validity of their claims. Is this thing for real?

Re: First Hand Plane?

#71

Dr. Twofingers, my proctologist has one o' those.

David Barnett - SW Florida

>

Re: First Hand Plane?

#72

Re: A first hand plane is an illusion

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>I disagree - at least in principle.

I plan to stay where I am now. I have four, and I could easily live with three. (LN 60.5, LV 62.5, LV BU Jointer, LV BU Smoother.)

I don't exactly even need more than two - as long as I have a good, long straight-edge.

A block and a Jack - in my case, a LV 62.5.

I've built a number of fine pieces of furniture with just the two, and I could easily continue to do so. (Frankly, I don't use the block all that much, but sometimes it's handy for fitting and small, tight spaces.)

But, having a nice jointer is handy, especially on longer joints, so that comes next.

The smoother comes dead last. I could probably do all the smoothing I wanted with the LN 60.5 and a high angle blade with the LV 62.5

Most of the jointing could quite easily be done with the LV 62.5, and a good straight-edge. (Frankly, I'm going to be using the SE with the jointer too.)

I've been a proponent of minimal planes, and perhaps I'm an oddity here and going against the grain. But seriously. One to three planes can really do most anything you want.

Now, some specialty planes are helpful too. Rabbet, plow, shoulder etc. But these are not going to see huge amounts of use and probably a chisel and some thinking will get the same task done without a huge time penalty. (Has for me, so far...)

Of all my hand-planes, my Jack gets literally like 90-95% of the use, and at least in my world, that's the way it's going to stay.

So I really do claim you can live on one plane. In my world it's really close to the truth. (And it's not like I'm just building book-shelves out of dimentioned lumber, as someone once crassly claimed.)

Cheers,

Greg

Re: First Hand Plane?

#73

I don't mind...

Marc in Luxembourg

>that you actually need 3 planes. A jack, a jointer and a smoother. That's all you need. But as we almost all tend to simplify - ouch - and to do less effort, I would add a scrub, because doing all that work by a jack is hard. So far I have four. Chamfering works with a smoother, but more than fine with a block plane. So I have five. Shooting end grain works fine with a big jointer, but why did they create this gorgeously well looking iron miter plane? So I have six...

You are right, you don't need more than 3, but more will bring us faster to the van down by the river.

Marc, near the Moselle, the river where I grew up.

Re: First Hand Plane?

#74

Re: God Bless the USA

Bill Nichols

>Simple Question.....70 opinions......only in America (and Canada Chico). :)

Re: First Hand Plane?

#75

Re: God Bless the USA

Frank D. in Montreal

>Bill,

Do we really have to bring God into this?

17 messages were left by people who do not reside in the USA.

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