First Hand Plane?

amen

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>

Re: learning

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>The reason we can't come to a concensus is that we are individuals. If we all agreed on something, I would get scared and run the other way because I would know that someone is using mind control.

My advice on getting a number 4 bench plane is sound in my opinion. The iron is large enough that it is easy to sharpen, the plane is useful for a large number of things, and buying, tuning, and using it will teach a person a tremendous amount of things about planes. Getting a number 4 and using it will most likely bring a person to a point where they see the value of a plane, and reading this forum will give them an idea of the vast number of different planes and there uses. I suggest the #4 over a block plane because in my opinion a block plane does not give a person a good overall vision of what can be done with planes. The block plane is harder to adjust than the bench plane to get nice fluffy shavings, and sharpening the iron square is usually more critical on a block plane than a bench plane. Sure, there are a vast number of planes out there to choose from, and each one has merits, but for a first plane to give a person an idea of what can be done and what planing is about; get a #4. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I hope someone has the gall to disagree with me ;) I'd be worried if they didn't.

Second the recommenation to get two...

Ian in Sydney (on his notebook tonight)

>However, I disagree with Derek somewhat (and I'm feeling a mite reckless tonight)

I consider the 60� adjustable mouth block plane to be the ideal first block plane. Sure it costs a little more than the models with a fixed mouth but it's easy to adjust for either coarse or fine shavings. Importantly this will give you a feel for when you need a fine mouth and when a wide mouth will do, and this feel will flow into your use of a bench plane.

I agree with Derek that a #4 is a good first bench plane. But make it a bevel-down version and if at all possible spring for a new Clifton or Lie Nielsen. Failing that spend the extra to get an older Sanley that has already been fettled. This way the tool is useable "out of the box"

Make sure you also invest in some sharpening equipment.

If we were talking about a plane a litle longer I'd recommend a bevel-up #5.

My own adventure with planes started with a new (and luckily pretty good) Stanley #6 followed by a similar condition #3. However, I was disappointed with their performance and only got them to work as well as they could after I bought a Lie Nielsen #5 which gave me a performance standard to aim for.

Did I waste my money?

That's hard to say. Both Stanleys are now fully fettled and are fitted with Adcademy Saw Works (ASW) tool steel blades. And for the present I'm not looking to replace either.

Re: Sharpening more important that what plane

Dave Mount

>Charles--

There are lots of good thoughts above on what plane to get, and it's all good advice even though some sounds contradictory.

I started out with a block plane (a new Stanley 9.5, not that I'm recommending that particular plane, new v. old). I used it for things like adjusting miters on house trim and knocking the sharp corners off of furniture. Just for fun I did some face planing with it on scrap. While I did make some shavings, there was a lot of tearout wherever the grain took a dive. I wouldn't have considered for a moment using it on a furniture project for anything other than things like relieving sharp corners because I feared (appropriately so) that I would make a mess of things.

Still, I was reading things like the Oldtools board (this was years ago when that was one of the only hand tool boards) and hearing about these people that just used planes instead of sandpaper, and of course knew that in years gone by that planes were used to produce the finished surface. I acquired a couple vintage bench planes more on the idea that I wished I could put them to use, more than actually using them. When I got them, I would mess with them a little on scrap, manage a couple comparatively coarse shavings, think "that's kind of cool", and put the planes on the shelf because, again, the performance wasn't anything I could imagine dropping down on a $100 chunk of wood and just hack away. . .I stuck with my sandpaper approach, sanding through the grits on anything that actually mattered to me.

Getting around to the point of all this rambling, the real turning point for me didn't relate to any particular plane, but in my ability to get a plane iron really sharp (well, that's still relative, but "sharp enough to really do the job). When I was able to do that, all of a sudden I could do previously unthinkable things will virtually all my planes. And this changed my whole way of thinking about handplanes, because I had a new expectation of what they could do, even in my hands.

So what advice am I giving? Well, a significant thing that delayed the advancement of my skills was not having a mentor that knew anything about hand planes. Someone above said this, but I think you'd be way ahead if you could locate someone (probably easily done through this board if you post your location) that knows something about planes and can let you use one that is working properly. If you later go about rehabbing on old plane (which I suspect you will sometime), you'll benefit greatly from knowing what it's supposed to do. Imagine trying to fix something when you don't know what it would do if it was running right. So recommendation #1, find a mentor, even if it's just for an evening. This will probably also greatly inform your choice of what plane to get first.

Recommendation #2 (which could relate to #1), is to equip yourself with good sharpening materials and learn to use them (maybe you're already there, if so, great). You can do this very well using a number of methods, sandpaper on glass, waterstones, diamond paste, oilstones -- you'll find lots of information on all of these techniques on this board and many other places. You just need to jump in and start sharpening. This is another place where some mentoring can greatly speed your progress, but you can do it on your own, I did and so have many, many others. I've grown very comfortable using waterstones, and that's what I use, but I'm not arguing they're the best, just that they work and I like them. If you're looking to get started, I would recommend the starter set from Lee Valley (which is an 800 grit bigger stone and a 0.5" 4000 grit stone which sell together for a fairly modest $44 USD. This can get you started without dropping a huge amount of money, although I think you're going to end up wanting an 8000 grit stone (or its equivalent in another medium). I�d also recommend a honing jig of some sort, even though you might eventually take to freehand sharpening. I have the older style Veritas jig, but there are lots of folks that seem to really like the newer Mk II version. I think that runs about $50. So for $100, you can get a good start. This may seem like a lot when you�re looking at a $30 plane purchase, but not even the highest quality planes will do what they need to for long (for that matter, even out of the box) if they aren�t sufficiently sharp.

As far as what you buy, I think that�s secondary. I think the advice to get a small block plane and a pre-war Bailey-type #4 is very reasonable advice. On the other hand, the high quality (LN and LV) new tools are also wonderful tools (bevel up or bevel down) and you wouldn�t go wrong there either. My point is only that none of these approaches will really work for you if the irons aren�t sharp, and I think that�s way more important than what plane you choose for your first.

My $0.02 � enjoy your slide down the slope,

Dave

Re: Here we Go Again

Phil Albany,NY

>That's exactly what I was thinking! Get a smoother which can be used almost anywhere a block can be used and can do a bit more. Don't worry if it's low angle or high angle for now, learn how to properly prepare your irons. Down the road you can either buy more specialized planes or buy more irons for the smoother for various kinds of work. Lots of strong opinions here and asking this question usually registers about a 8.5 on the Richter Scale. Don't take my opinion or anybody elses too seriously though.

Phil

And a 4 1/2 will do it best! ;-)

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>

There's another issue here

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>Adam C.'s Arts and Mysteries series excited my imagination greatly and, more importantly, made me think. We assume here that we're all on the same page because we use and love hand tools. Adam prefers to approximate 18th century useage while Pam N. likes Japanese tools while Sir William seems more interested in turning than some others are and enjoys making tools while Chris S. has advocated that hand and power tools must be integrated to achieve the best results. I mention Adam because his choices, no matter what they are, are well thought out and he can articulate them. The A & M series made me think about systems. I've taken courses from Paul Sellers and he recommends a 4 1/2 as a general bench plane. Taking courses from him allowed me to see why he recommends this; there are good reasons. When I started out, I read much and found forums and took courses. Competing opinions (read systems) confused more than helped. Try to learn a system first. After you know something it's easier to adapt. Sir William, I don't think we will ever be able to give a simple answer that most of us can get behind.

Charles ;

Steve Mackay

>Go down to Sears and get the mid-size "plane". Try tearing up some 2x4 you can spare. Then come back here EVERY DAY with EVERY stupid question you can think of !(whats a frog? )Then sit back and watch the fervor (sp).Even from the Lords of The Manor.You'll learn more than you would belive AND it keeps these folks on their toes ! It wont be long before you're salivating for "up-grades" and you'll know wich ones !

Jointing edges for one...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>With the length of a 5 you can join a fairly long board. Can't see doing that with a 4.

The real question ought to be...

Jamey Amrine

>...what should my fourth plane be?

If you are *really* going to use handplanes extensively in your work, I think that most here would agree that you should have a jointer, a jack, and a smoother. Which jointer, which jack, and which smoother are entirely up to you - I happen to like the LV low angle offerings, wooden planes, and Baileys, in approximately that order, but this is up to you and no one else on this forum.

Personally, I think you (and eveyone else who asks this question) are wasting your time to try and find a plane that will cover the majority of your work. I think that the jack most closely reaches that point, but that is an argument for another (past, present, and future) thread.

So, figure out what type of plane you want. You can do this without spending gobs of dough. How much you have to spend will determine what you work with and I would think you would find that to be true of 18th century fellows who had to do this stuff for a living. I started out with old Baileys, which I like quite well, and they were very affordable. Then I got the bevel-up smoother and jack from Veritas, and these are fantastic planes (as are the L-N equivalents, I'm sure). Now, I am starting to fall in love with wooden planes. They are very pleasing to use, and extremely cost efficient. Don't let anyone tell you that they are hard to learn to adjust. Baloney.

So, I feel the real debate comes down to what do you need when you have settled on the Big 3. You can discover the vast world of hand planes that go beyond numbers 1 through 8. A rabbet plane is the most used plane on *my* bench after the jointer, jack, and smoother, probably. This will be affected greatly by the kind of work you do.

You won't get a firm answer on this forum. In fact, I think it is safe to say that you won't get the "right" answer here either. Go to a woodshow, or Woodcraft, or to a local hand-tool user's shop and try out something. You will learn a lot about what you like, and probably more about what you don't.

Re: Don't hold back - tell us what you really thin

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I'll be more than glad to lend you mine. However, it's been fettled and tuned and sharpened, so it might not be a fair test. OTOH, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in performance between it and a new one right off the shelf.

Re: Jointing edges for one...

Frank D. in Montreal

>I started out with a #4. While it will do most jobs better than a #5, jointing is the one thing that a #5 will do better. Of course you can joint a 4' board with a #4, but for a beginner who wants to start out with one plane and doesn't have a power jointer, a #5 will make life a lot easier (especially the LV LA jack which, besause the mouth is farther back, acts more like a #6). When I had only my #4, I still felt a pressing need for a longer plane because I didn't have the skill to joint with a 10" plane. I also think it's exaggerated to think a #5 is too long for most smoothing jobs. I've never had a problem, and for the occasional dip that the plane can't reach, a card scraper will take care of it at a minimal cost.

Re: learning

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Good points, Moses. I like most of my bench planes, too. Those that I don't like, I know what is that I don't like about them. I just have not gotten around to fixing them yet, because I have other options, too many options. I've gained much valuable experience from fixing them up, but some of it has been expensive knowledge, in terms of the time I've spent getting it. The hardest lessons were probably learned on a new block plane, BTW, in that it still doesn't work well.

They are valuable lessons, and need to be learned. I suspect that after looking at his empty wallet after purchasing the first plane, and the sharpening tools and wood, the bench, the chisels and marking tools, saws, etc., that the successful neophyte will appreciate the advantages of filling in his arsenal with some fine old Bailey pattern planes.

There are pros and cons to either approach.

One thing that makes a big difference in the first plane is the level of patience (and knowledge and experience of things mechanical) of the neophyte. That is incredibly difficult to judge from a forum question, so I prefer to err on the side of caution. There are lots of things that can go wrong with a first plane experience, and to the neophyte, the variables can be very subtle. I prefer to

Personally, I don't find L-N or LV bevel up (block) planes more difficult to adjust, with the possible exception of my L-N #164, which is a little finicky to get the adjuster plate adjusted properly. You need to make a jig to set it correctly, but the same jig works for all bevel angles, and a competent sharpening jig can make a big difference to someone who is learning to sharpen at the same time.

Speaking of bevel angles, a BU plane, with two or three blades, can teach someone a lot of lessons very quickly about the effects of bevel angle and mouth opening on plane performance, especially if they are learning about end grain vs. long grain and the widely different characteristics of all the exotic and native species of wood we now have easy access to. An additional blade for a new L-N or LV BU plane is a lot less expensive than a L-N #4 1/2 (or #7) with two frogs, and you can't even get a high angle frog for an old Bailey. Trying to explain back bevels and their sharpening to a neophyte via the medium of a forum does not seem to be very effective to me.

confirms my point.....

bill tindall

>Not one in a hundred persons building furniture is willing to joint with a plane instead of a power jointer. To recommend a #5 to someone who isn't going to joint edges with it seems misplaced.

Re: The real question ought to be... *LINK*

Kevin French, Antrim NH

>There been a lot of good info here. You're standing on the top of the slippery slope. Old Planes are cheap at Yard Sale and Flea Markets START SLIDING!

Pick up some cheap planes, restore them, play with them, learn what from them, buy more planes. You should be well down the slope by that time.

Use the link to learn what to look for when buying one.

That why it's call a learning curve.


B & G

But Bill,

Frank D. in Montreal

>The original poster said he WAS going to joint boards with his plane (see his response to Mike W.):

"Basic hand planning, like jointing and planning boards flat."

Let me be the first...

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.

>Bill,

to disagree. While I'm not arguing with your point that you should acquire a smoother before a jack (I agree with Jamey that you need at least 3 planes to start with), I have to disagree that no one joints a board with a plane. I don't own a power jointer and see no reason to get one. Jointing with handplanes is easy and fast. I find it one of the most pleasurable of all planing activities.

Jim

Well I'll be the second...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I don't own a power jointer either. Unless you count my Stout feed 608...;^)

Re: Well I'll be the third...

Frank D. in Montreal

>Neither do I. Once you develop the skills to joint (with a little practice), hand jointing is both fun and quick. I think a power jointer would only be a necessity in an industrial shop.

Re: Well I'll be the fourth...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: The real question ought to be...

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>An alternate strategy, for your consideration: Now that you've got three, and you find that your #5 is starting to gather dust at the expense of the smoother and jointer, swap the jack for a cheap rabbet plane, with a nicker, fence and depth stop, and buy a good shoulder plane.

At least in my shop, my #5 and #62 don't get nearly as much use as the shorter smoothers and longer jointers.

Note that, with a computer science background, I have no problem starting counting at zero, instead of one. That leaves room for a low angle adjustable mouth block plane, with a clear conscience.

Fifth....

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Never gonna have the space in my small shop

Just have to make due with my 607 and LN8

You are right though. Probably 1 in 100 would ever want to joint with a handplane as all of my friends own power jointah's

Dan Clermont

Re: Sixth...

Marc in Luxembourg

>Well I had such machines, planer, jointer, bandsaw... and sold to have handplanes, because they are so fascinating and bringing me technique and understanding of wood.

Marc

A first hand plane is an illusion

Marc in Luxembourg

>Reading all these posts, there is no first hand plane. Look at all these people gathering handplanes for years now and show me two, indeed not one, because I read of one who used a #4 over 20 years, that only have one and work with.

So, if there is no need to have only one, then why bother? A little patience, overlook your budget, and then go for whatever you think you need and buy that first. No recommandation by me!

Marc, who bought 5 first planes coming in one box.

Guess I'm one in a hundred...

Dave Thompson

>I probably hand jointed about 400bf of rough sawn lumber with a #5 & #7. I did have a 6" power jointer at the time. Though, I hand jointed the 4" and 5" boards too. The sole motivator for me was the exercise, and partly as an excuse to use the planes. It's hard to think of any upper body exercise that's more productive than that. The more you exercise, the more furniture you get.

Since my kids were born, I no longer had the time to do this. I had to give it up and also get a larger power jointer.

I can't help thinking your playing devil's advocate, with the question though Bill, or else poking fun at earlier threads. #5 is the most common used plane you see in the wild. The inference says... what were all those goof-balls thinking over the past 150 years when they could have been using #4's??? ;-)

enjoy,

Dave