Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Re: Shepherd Tools
ThomD
>"Hopefully they can recover, but knowingly receiving funds from customers for planes they knew were never being delivered, is fraud in my book."
Obviously. Care to prove it. Having done a lot of these cases proving it is a lot harder than it seems.
Re: Shepherd Tools
ThomD
>Don't give up hope yet. An Infill is just a piece of U channel designed by a committee, with a lump of wood, a blade and some sundries included. There are still a few people out there, like St James bay, doing a good job providing amateurs with parts.
Re: Shepherd Tools
C.R. Miller
>I actually think that they genuinely wanted, and wholeheartedly expected, to fulfill all outstanding orders, but found themselves in an ever spiraling and downward loop. It also seems feasible to me that they desperately needed cash flow to fulfill those orders and produced new models and sales to get that cash flow happening. Very flawed approach, as we all know, but I think this may be a factor in the guys taking orders right up to the last minute. Not to scam, but to help stave off the inevitable for another week or so.
Hoping desperately for something doesn't automatically make it happen.
Re: Shepherd Tools
C.R. Miller
>Largely a committee of one - Mr Spiers ;-)
Re: Shepherd Tools
ThomD
>Fair enough!
It does rather look like what a computer would look like if it was designed by bakers - we would all be typing on crescent rolls right now. On the other hand, maybe he was a genius and knew what we woodworkers needed to feel good about the whole thing.
Is their a lawyer in the house ...
Ian Neuhaus
>Todd
Whilst it would be nice for Shepherd Tools to call and say "We'll get with square with you somehow at a future time" as I understand bankruptcy law they can't. To do so would be treat some creditors more favourably than others.
Creditors normally form a queue with tax at the front, then the banks, with unsecured creditors ranking just above the shareholders
Shepherd made about 1000 kits and 150 planes
Ian Neuhaus
>Source is their Nov/Dec 05 Newsletter "We recently shipped our 1000th kitted plane and delivered our 150th finished plane"
At an average price of about $300 for a kit and $650 for a finished plane I'm guessing the Shepherd's total revenue was about $400,000. My guess is their material costs represented at least half their selling price, so over 4 years the company had about $200,000 to pay the rent, tooling, marketing and overhead (insurances, business licences, power, heating, etc) expenses.
My guess is that over the three and a half years the company was in business Ben and Doug earned about $15,000 per annum each.
I'm not trying to comment on Ben and Doug's business acumen, more to put some substance arround the economics of a small operation.
Kits versus finished planes
Mike Swindell
>If in fact these number are anywhere close to a business plan, it's no wonder they failed. If i looked at my production and determined kits were outpacing finished planes by 8:1, why bother with a finished plane ? No manual labor, design the parts have them cut on a laser or water jet, have the remaining parts machined out to a local shop and have the blades done at a local heat treater. Why would you try to do this operation inhouse when the volume is so low ? The only rationale that I see is if you have already paid for the mill, lathe and laser machine and buy raw stock to machine in house. Forget about the infills altogether, anyone who has the knowledge and desire to build a kit will have the material and tools to make an infill.
The business plan was corrupt from the beginning, how can you survive on $15K a year? This might have been a dream gone bad, but continuing to accept order while they were on fishing trips and marketing journeys is totally irresponsible.
Luckily I didn't get ripped off. Perhaps they learned their lesson and obviously those who made deposits have learned theirs - albeit an expensive which some cannot afford.
Is there a a market for kits ? I think so but do away with the dovetail sides, these aren't and never will be collectible - unless you're Sauer and Steiner or Hotley. An infil is a romantic tool for those who can afford it versus a plane from Steve Knight or any other maker. The results are probably nearly identical, but you can say I did it with an infill. As Steve has proved you can make a woodie that rivals an infill-it's not as sexy, but the performance is what you're after, unless you want a collectible for the grandkids.
Re: Shepherd Tools
C.R. Miller
>Well they did convey all the sweeping lines of Victoriana England. If they were invented today they be all metal and brightly colored plastic with disposable quick-change parts...
No wait, Rali's done that already ;-)
Re: Shepherd made about 1000 kits and 150 planes
C.R. Miller
>Thanks for the figures. I don't think I read the newsletter at all?
Re: Shepherd Tools
ThomD
>Yeah and I have more use for a Rahli than most infils, and i'm speaking as a plane snob. A wonderful plane done to death by a cheap presentation, while the infill has rather the opposite problem.
Re: Kits versus finished planes
ThomD
>I think we have always known that wooden planes were as good or better than infills. Metal planes of all varieties are like precusion lock rifles. Seemed like a good durable idea at the time, but where actually just a transitional technology.
Like anything made beautifully an infill can be a wonderful object and a joy to use. It's a complex canvas upon which a modern day maker can paint a dazzling picture. But was it the pinacle of technological progress, or like the polyester leisure suit, well down the slope of decay?
Re: Shepherd Tools
C.R. Miller
>Well in all fairness both infills and Rali's are made to do very different things. Sure, they're all planes, but infills are primarily for finish work whereas the Rali's are more or less for rough stuff.
Re: Shepherd Tools
ThomD
>I just like the adjustment mechanism on the Rali, and if it was available on an infill I would be tempted.
Re: Shepherd Tools
C.R. Miller
>Maybe I'll do a "one-off" then? ;-)
Re: agree partly
Dennis McDonaugh
>Moses, if you look at my post, I said they have the right to be angry and seek remedy. I never said anything about making accusations.